ts Dev.Blog 3 - Lethal Weapon 3 (11/7/2011)

[Guest Mei Terumi]

I actually wish more maps had basic base defences and powerplants. You either get small maps with no base defences and low tech or maps with everything on it. I'd rather have maps like Gaurd duty with powerplants and Bunkers with basic base defences.

[Guest Nod00]

You're forgetting that the Toxin Trooper is going to be the closest thing to a sniper Reborn will have, so coupled with a defensive device like mines, he's going to be quite useful actually. There's nothing wrong with having to re-buy a powerful secondary munition.

 

Also, I was wondering if it would be reasonable to ask for a discussion on the Infinite Ammo topic sometime? I know Wally seems to have some strong opinions on it, but I'd also like to get down to the details as to why and propose possible changes/solutions that would provide a functional middle ground to the problems we see with either side of the mechanic.

 

The largest problem with limited ammo is larger maps. C&C like maps have huge terrain to traverse which makes limited ammo a extreme annoyance.

 

I actually wish more maps had basic base defences and powerplants. You either get small maps with no base defences and low tech or maps with everything on it. I'd rather have maps like Gaurd duty with powerplants and Bunkers with basic base defences.

 

What would be the point of power plants on Guard Duty?

Edited November 9, 2011 by Nod00

[Guest Leo]

can I download the beta?

[Guest Nod00]

I got an idea for power plants.

Perhaps, just like in the C&C series, they can cause buildings to take slight damage over time. Low power means no cooling systems, no lights, etc etc so things tend to get broken.

How would that mesh with the conyard?

I actually dont think the construction yard should auto repair...

I also think that a possibility is power plants could damage base buildings when they die. Ie. If the Power Plant dies, its reactor explodes sending a electric discharge to the other buildings causing damage (10%-30%). Then the lack of power could cause damage over time. The CY would still out repair the PP Damage Over Time(maybe?) but obviously it would lessen the CY's actual repair.

 

Really I dont think the Construction Yard belongs ingame because it gave the ability to build buildings. It did not auto repair the base...

It should only appear if you are actually going to allow defenses of buildings to be built.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Nod00

[Enduar]

How would limited ammo be a pain for large maps? On large maps, the only time infantry combat happens anyway is if there's a specific portion of the map dedicated to infantry combat that leads directly to the enemy base (and can get past base defences), if you do some sort of transport rush, or if your vehicle dies and you're stranded. In which case, the only time ammo matters is if you want to remain a continuous thorn in the enemy's side by doing miniscule amounts of damage to their buildings until they kill you. Honestly, it just makes you chose your engagements more carefully, which is something I do not see a problem with in the least.

 

An idea I've been toying with is that all transports (Subterranean, AAPC, and GDI's air transport) have the ability to replenish ammo. I've also been thinking it would be neat to make the Officer and Elite Cadre (assuming they still fulfill similar roles) be a little more expensive, but also come with a one-time use beacon that allows them to call in an AAPC via carryall, or a Subterranean APC. This would be an interesting way to prolong combat in matches where a war factory has been destroyed, and also make the unit fulfill a much more useful support/command position on the team, as well as providing some interesting and fun game dynamics.

[Guest trarian]

I got an idea for power plants.

Perhaps, just like in the C&C series, they can cause buildings to take slight damage over time. Low power means no cooling systems, no lights, etc etc so things tend to get broken.

How would that mesh with the conyard?

I actually dont think the construction yard should auto repair...

I also think that a possibility is power plants could damage base buildings when they die. Ie. If the Power Plant dies, its reactor explodes sending a electric discharge to the other buildings causing damage (10%-30%). Then the lack of power could cause damage over time. The CY would still out repair the PP Damage Over Time(maybe?) but obviously it would lessen the CY's actual repair.

 

Really I dont think the Construction Yard belongs ingame because it gave the ability to build buildings. It did not auto repair the base...

It should only appear if you are actually going to allow defenses of buildings to be built.

Damage over time would not be nice, I am more for something like:

- CY automatic repair rate will be slowed when destroyed.

- Tank factory's will gets a " slowdown of 10 seconds" so tanks would deploy slower from the tank factory's

- Slow respawn from the dead with 5 seconds

- A max of 25% cost increase

 

 

And about unlimited ammo, you never should run out that fast with limited ammo, the only one that get hurts by limited ammo, are the campers, when they found a nice indestructible spot to kill from, they can camp from it for ever whits unlimited ammo. When the ammo is limited, you just make sure he will waste all his ammo on you or something else. It also destroys the tactical part of "should I shoot or should i save my bullets for something thats worth it."

[Guest Leo]

When I try to install the Infantry demo 2008_02_26_reborninstall its says Feature transfer error

 

Feature: Westwood Online

Component: standard files

File: C:\Program Files\RenEvo\Reborn\WOL\register.exe

Error: The system could not find the required file.

[Guest EVA-251]

I was discussing this blog with a friend of mine and we came to the conclusion it's pretty damn scary that we're actually excited for Reborn now. Especially the fact you guys have manned up and canned the "FPS sniper" from it.

 

I'm kinda curious about the infantry choices as there seems to be a bit of overlap/role confusion. What will Elite Cadre and Confessor do exactly? Cyborg with anti-vehicle seems like it might render Rocket infantry redundant for non-AA purposes.

[Enduar]

I'm kinda curious about the infantry choices as there seems to be a bit of overlap/role confusion. What will Elite Cadre and Confessor do exactly? Cyborg with anti-vehicle seems like it might render Rocket infantry redundant for non-AA purposes.

 

The Cyborg, as stated by Wally, will be more like a walking tank- and if you remember explosives killed Cyborgs quicker than infantry did. Their anti-tank role as a slow moving, weaker, more vulnerable counter won't be nearly enough to overshadow the rocket infantry, and will probably only be better in the sense that they cannot be run over. I doubt Cyborgs of any kind will be able to drive vehicles, either. The Cyborg, Cyborg Reaper, and Cyborg Commando will likely perform more like a pseudo class between vehicle and infantry- sharing qualities of both but exceeding as neither.

 

As for the Confessor, if the weapon doesn't change too drastically it should perform similarly to the Cyborg Commando minus the cyborg part, I believe, just on a much more toned down level (Especially once we figure out exactly how much the Commando is getting buffed).

 

On another note- A long time ago I won a contest held on the old forums to decide a replacement for Lilith- Is there still any thought in using my Nod Acolyte design as another infantry class?

Edited November 9, 2011 by Enduar

[Wallywood]

I was discussing this blog with a friend of mine and we came to the conclusion it's pretty damn scary that we're actually excited for Reborn now. Especially the fact you guys have manned up and canned the "FPS sniper" from it.

Thank you.... I think

 

I'm kinda curious about the infantry choices as there seems to be a bit of overlap/role confusion. What will Elite Cadre and Confessor do exactly? Cyborg with anti-vehicle seems like it might render Rocket infantry redundant for non-AA purposes.

Well we're thinking that the Rocket arm will be an un-lockable item at Elite status. So yes I'm sure after you rank up to the max level it will over shadow the rocket trooper. But of course you'll have to earn that. As the Elite Cadre/ GDI officer will be similar to the APB's Captains.

 

As for the Toxin Trooper and Riot , I would rather make their secondary weapons more of a re-buy item. There going to be pretty powerful weapons and we don't need them being spammed everywhere. But after the balance testing goes through things may change.

[Wallywood]

The Confessor is going to play more of an anti-vehicle, But his weapon is going to changed a little to make him a little more balanced. Even though there will be a few different Anti-vehicle classes for Nod there going to play very different from one another. Here is a good way to look at it,

 

Disk thrower + Rocket trooper = Anti vehicle units

 

Officer + Elite Cadre = Heavy gunners units

 

Medic + Hijacker = Support units

 

Jumpjet + Cham. Spy = Recon units

 

Umagon + Toxin Trooper = Auto scoped units

 

Ghost stalker + C.Commando = Commando units

 

Riot + Cyborg = Anti infantry units with veh. support perks

 

A.A Trooper + Confessor = Extra support units

 

That is a basic way to kind of see how we're working it.

 

 

On another note- A long time ago I won a contest held on the old forums to decide a replacement for Lilith- Is there still any thought in using my Nod Acolyte design as another infantry class?

I didn't know anything about that ...Sorry ..but Lilith was replaced with the Toxin Trooper.

[Guest Generalcamo]

When is the release plan for Reborn? What besides balancing needs to be done?

Edited November 9, 2011 by Generalcamo

[Wallywood]

Wally, you forgot to finish that post...

What post ?

[Guest Generalcamo]

The nod Acolyte could potentially be a cool model and class of infantry for mission maps.

[Guest Leonis]

How would limited ammo be a pain for large maps? On large maps, the only time infantry combat happens anyway is if there's a specific portion of the map dedicated to infantry combat that leads directly to the enemy base (and can get past base defences), if you do some sort of transport rush, or if your vehicle dies and you're stranded. In which case, the only time ammo matters is if you want to remain a continuous thorn in the enemy's side by doing miniscule amounts of damage to their buildings until they kill you. Honestly, it just makes you chose your engagements more carefully, which is something I do not see a problem with in the least.

 

It would be a pain because it would be impossible to kill a building unless you keep everyone who's trying to repair dead. It makes infantry almost non-threatening in an attack after the destruction of War Factory. The only good thing they would be good for is camping.

 

I know I would just leave the out of ammo enemies alone and rush off to kill their base with a vehicle.

[Guest Leo]

Oke i played the infantry demo! its great

[Enduar]

"The only good thing they would be good for is camping."

 

Exactly the opposite, actually. They would be unable to camp at all, at least for long, and with the mechanics I suggested they would require support if a defensive (camping) position were to be made anywhere but their own base. And if given a suitable amount of ammo, infantry units would only feel the sting of that limit if they were careless/wasteful, or if they lack proper support to begin with.

 

I suppose I support this because it's the more realistic of the two options- Admittedly infinite ammo and limited ammo both are about equal in terms of what they deliver content-wise and what drawbacks they may impose.

 

But if APCs were able to replenish ammo like I suggested I could see a decent teamwork-based gameplay mechanic that would actually improve the game, whereas with unlimited ammo things would simply stay the way they are.

[Guest Leonis]

Exactly the opposite, actually. They would be unable to camp at all, at least for long, and with the mechanics I suggested they would require support if a defensive (camping) position were to be made anywhere but their own base. And if given a suitable amount of ammo, infantry units would only feel the sting of that limit if they were careless/wasteful, or if they lack proper support to begin with.

 

I suppose I support this because it's the more realistic of the two options- Admittedly infinite ammo and limited ammo both are about equal in terms of what they deliver content-wise and what drawbacks they may impose.

 

But if APCs were able to replenish ammo like I suggested I could see a decent teamwork-based gameplay mechanic that would actually improve the game, whereas with unlimited ammo things would simply stay the way they are.

 

 

I don't see how having limited ammo makes anyone want to venture out and attack when it's much easier to refill around the base.

 

I suppose the APC idea makes sense, but when your War Factory is dead, chances are, you wouldn't have an APC lying around in the midfield (although it does make it easier to hold the line for a bit). It's asking to be blown up. Then, the tactic is pretty useless because the other team can just run you out of ammo. Unless, I'm missing something here, I didn't think Reborn maps were filled with objects and cover in the field.

[Wallywood]

The APC idea only makes sense til you loose your WF after that no one will wont to leave their bases.

[Enduar]

Which is why I've suggested that in the event of a destroyed war factory it would be possible for players to order in a subterranean APC or an AAPC (via carryall) at higher cost, or possibly as a one-time-per-purchase ability of the Commander units (GDI Commander, or the Elite Cadre).

 

Edit: Now that I think about it, having the Commanders being able to call in APCs like that would make for a nice final-tier bonus for when they unlock it.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Enduar

[Wallywood]

How can I say this nicely....just NO. No limited ammo, No vehicles after the WF is gone. Just No

[Guest trarian]

So just a renegade copy with the stolen unlimited ammo style of APB .

 

No just joking, just finish your project, its better to complain about stuff we can play, than complaining about stuff that we cant see how it works out. It isn't that bad after all, its just that everyone thinks that his idea of how this mod has to be, is perfect. Unlucky for everyone and me, you cant make everyone happy, because there always will be people that likes it and people that are against it .

Edited November 9, 2011 by trarian

[Wallywood]

So just a renegade copy with the stolen unlimited ammo style of APB

There is nothing at all Renegadish about our plans except for the game's engine and the factions.

[Enduar]

"No" is fine, but I'd still like to know why. I'm not here to make demands, but I know I'd feel better if I knew what I was missing that makes your way the better way, or maybe find out if it's you who's missing the details. Or if it's simply a matter of work involved, you could just say so- that's definitely something I've heard before, haha.

 

I'm not here to fuck with Devs, I swear- Debating mechanics is just my thing. I like understanding these things, since I can't just DO them myself. Also, if me striking up debate in the blogs gets tedious I could easily just take it to general discussion where things could stay more concise.

 

I'm new, here, but on the Reborn forums I have about 1500 posts to my name, a forum much less active than this one here. Most of the posts which were spent doing exactly this- Sparking debate, making suggestions, and trying hurl little idea lightbulbs at a wall to see what sticks.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Enduar

[Guest r315r4z0r]

Exactly the opposite, actually. They would be unable to camp at all, at least for long, and with the mechanics I suggested they would require support if a defensive (camping) position were to be made anywhere but their own base. And if given a suitable amount of ammo, infantry units would only feel the sting of that limit if they were careless/wasteful, or if they lack proper support to begin with.

 

I suppose I support this because it's the more realistic of the two options- Admittedly infinite ammo and limited ammo both are about equal in terms of what they deliver content-wise and what drawbacks they may impose.

 

But if APCs were able to replenish ammo like I suggested I could see a decent teamwork-based gameplay mechanic that would actually improve the game, whereas with unlimited ammo things would simply stay the way they are.

 

 

I don't see how having limited ammo makes anyone want to venture out and attack when it's much easier to refill around the base.

 

I suppose the APC idea makes sense, but when your War Factory is dead, chances are, you wouldn't have an APC lying around in the midfield (although it does make it easier to hold the line for a bit). It's asking to be blown up. Then, the tactic is pretty useless because the other team can just run you out of ammo. Unless, I'm missing something here, I didn't think Reborn maps were filled with objects and cover in the field.

People wont stand around in the base all day because there is no fun in doing that. If they aren't going to play the game and just stand around in the base, why did they bother to download the game?

 

And if the War Factory is destroyed then you would obviously not have access to those field refills. It's just another reason to not let your War Factory get destroyed...

Edited November 10, 2011 by r315r4z0r

[Enduar]

Unless, I'm missing something here, I didn't think Reborn maps were filled with objects and cover in the field.

The Reborn maps we tested before things shifted here are all very, very high quality. I'll say it the same as R3 did earlier- It's my impression that most of the Reborn maps do legitimately surpass APB's maps in a few ways- detail in design, cover, and not having empty space in general being the greatest. I don't mean that in an insulting way in the least, it's just my own experience with the matter. We've had some excellent mappers who spent a lot of time and effort on them.

 

Also, back on the discussion with Wally, didn't APB have a thing for a while where supply trucks could be bought even if the War Factory was dead? I could have sworn something like that was introduced at some point, though maybe I just saw it discussed somewhere.

[Guest ChronoSeth]

Also, back on the discussion with Wally, didn't APB have a thing for a while where supply trucks could be bought even if the War Factory was dead? I could have sworn something like that was introduced at some point, though maybe I just saw it discussed somewhere.

I'm pretty sure that was just a discussion somewhere on the forums.

[Wallywood]

I have stated tons of times on both forums why I say NO to limited ammo. If you choose to keep ignoring my answers, I'm going to choose to ignore your questions relating to the subject.

 

*Running out of ammo makes you have to run all the way back to base.

*If your WF goes people WILL turtle

*Not true to any C&C RTS style game.

*Limited ammo numbs Infantry combat

*This is NOT RENEGADE

*Doesn't work well on larger maps

*Refilling is already enough of an issue in these styles of games, why add something else to make it harder to modderate

*The only good idea (APC PTs) doesn't make sense to WFs and would take way more coding then what its worth.

*90% of wanting limited ammo bases their logic off other FPS (COD,BF,Halo) and have weapon/ammo pick ups

*Why would anyone use a unit for attacking when they could just use a vehicle

*Limited ammo sucks

 

You can debate this til your blue in the face. It will not change my mind.

[Guest ChronoSeth]

As long as vehicles have infinite ammo, it makes no sense for infantry to have limited ammo.

 

Slightly offtopic: is it possible to make refilling cost money?

[Guest APB_ICE]

Power Plant logic so far will only disable the Base defenses, I'm not a huge fan on the concept of a power plant doubling the cost of things... that has never really made sense to me, but I might throw in the idea to slow down the speed in which things are built, if that is up and working in time.

Yes, Renegade's double-cost effect is kinda ridiculous. That's why I suggested only a 25% price-increase upon Power Plant destruction, along with double production-time and powering down advanced base-defences. This way, the Power Plant has importance, and losing it is a major inconvenience which affects the team in multiple realistic ways, but it's destruction doesn't necessarily mean "game-over", like losing the War Factory allegedly does.

Edited November 10, 2011 by APB_ICE