Category 5 Hurricane

Ok, so you're harping on his lack of imagination again.

Would you elaborate on that?

So as long as you keep doing actions you can prove (like your report on Jeod) I see nothing to be concerned about.

But you can only do one thing at a time with it, right?

You are getting really keyed up about this key. Why are you saying he would be able to kill players using it?

I was thinking that Abolishment doesn't mean the empire splits into independent states, but it does clearly say that, doesn't it? Nevermind...

Oh wait, I see.

Abolishment doesn't mean independence, though.

Actually, I've been meaning to ask, where are you getting this Independence line from?

Oh for the love of... Look, we can analyze this easily. Who would want the passage for the reforms we voted on? Radical Status Quo Would be wanted by anyone who has Status Quo as a Primary and Civil War as a secondary. Anyone who is Austrian or Hungarian Any Status Quo/Peace player who thinks there will be Civil War anyway and wants to be better positioned for it. Any outside force that wants to cause a Civil War Soft Status Quo Would be wanted by anyone who has Status Quo as a Primary and Reform as a secondary. Anyone who is Austrian or Hungarian Any Status Quo/Civil War player who doesn't want to risk the war. Soft Pluralism Would be wanted by anyone who has Pluralism as a Primary and Reform as a secondary. Anyone who is Bohemian, Illyrian, or Galician Any Pluralism/Civil War player who doesn't want to risk the war. Radical Pluralism Would be wanted by anyone who has Pluralism as a Primary and Civil War as a secondary. Anyone who is Bohemian, Illyrian, or Galician Any Pluralism/Peace player who thinks there will be Civil War anyway and wants to be better positioned for it. Any outside force that wants to cause a Civil War So, for all the motivations, how many options do they have? Status Quo - 2 Pluralism - 2 Reform - 2 Civil War - 2 Austrian - 2 Hungarian - 2 Bohemian - 2 Illyrian - 2 Galician - 2 We can ignore the nationality because I imagine nationality will line up perfectly with the desired reform. So most if not all players will fall into one of these: Status Quo/Reform Status Quo/Civil War Pluralism/Reform Pluralism/Civil War That's four factions. There were four options. Each faction will only have one obvious option, though they could go against their expected vote for reasons I already described. There could be outside players like a Syndicalist Faction, and not knowing what their motivations would be, I can't pin down what they would be voting for. But, in the case of Syndicalists, I would expect them to be aiming for Civil War. Maybe a German player would be voting for Reform options and not care which reform it is.

Why would one faction have two options that achieves their goals? So that they can split their votes and make it less likely they get what they want?

Yeah, I'm not sure nationality will be a good indicator, unless we find people that are from outside the Empire. If we find people from France, Britain, or Italy, for example, I think those should be considered a threat by default.

In Kaiserreich, Civil War doesn't usually actually work out well for the countries involved. It's hard to be prepared for the oncoming second Weltkrieg if you've busy repairing and reinforcing from your Civil War, assuming you managed to complete your own war in time. Civil Wars make it easier for your later opponents. Motives for actually wanting a Civil War would include: 1) Can't get the government type you want without it 2) And extension of 1, if you want to change which faction you join in the Weltkreig 3) You are from a country that would expect to gain from the Empire failing.

I think the fact that Shade is trying to position his argument that it doesn't matter what the secondary objective is, means he is one of the people who wants Civil War. He's tryng to protect himself by pushing that argument in advance.

Well given that there were 4 choices in the reform, I think it would be safe to imagine that there are 4 factions. There wouldn't be a point for 4 options if one of them wouldn't be beneficial to anybody.

TheIrishman, given that you took the Medkit that you didn't tell anyone about, weren't you concerned that OrangeP47 would call you out for lying about it? At the time you didn't know he couldn't access the vault.

I think that is his point. He's saying that even though some useful things were in the vault, he didn't take them. And probably the only reason not to take something is because he wanted to do something else. I think that would be a compelling argument if something bad had happened to somebody. Since I haven't seen anything negative yet (except the tie vote, which might not be that bad really)

And that is exactly why I think you are one of the ones who would vote radical.

Yes, exactly. We do have a bit of the "Prisoner's Dilemma" problem going on here, because of how the voting works. Because the vote had 4 options, even though the two sides have equal numbers, if you vote for a soft option while not much of the rest of your "side" does, you may cause the radical option of the other side to win, giving you the worst result possible. Kinda facinating, but maybe we can do a Political Reform that puts in Ranked Choice Voting so that such a thing can be avoided.

Well, the people who voted radical might not be scum, just selfish as all hell. Frankly when planning my own vote, I considered that Jeod would be among the ones voting for a radical option, even if he's town. So frankly, I'm not surprised. I also think that OrangeP47, TheIrishman, or Shade would also do so if their victory condition would be helped by it, while I think FRAYDO and Sunflower would not. I'm really curious what the tie was on.

@Nodlied that line FRAYDO quoted looks like it is missing something, maybe?

When I play any Paradox game, I usually first improve the industry base before I do anything else (I got Switzerland to 3500IC in the "normal" WW2 game that I posted the map of earlier), though there is likely no such thing as a bad reform category, just bad choices in those categories. I'm not sure I'm going to care which one goes through. At least not right now.

Yeah, I rewrote some of what I was going to say and mucked it up in the process. I'm saying that the wording of "I'm going to endorse this day 1 innocent investigation" just hit me as a little bit off. I know that there isn't much reason to think that OrangeP47 would be anything other than innocent because of all the things you just said, but your statement feels like you might have more certainty than you should. You seem to be fully trusting of what the result will be even though you also point out that we have to be careful of clearing him based on the result.

I'd only ever watched Let's Plays of KR in HoI4 before, though I downloaded KR for Darkest Hour and started a Switzerland game. It seems like a lot of the events in KR were redone as national focuses for HoI4. I'm not sure if HoI4 has more events, but a lot of what I was seeing was familiar, and the layout of the map seemed very close. Though I've seen the Spanish Civil War being fought by four factions in HoI4, and I think the wiki says that Italy starts in four or five pieces in HoI4 as well? The Switzerland/France events were pretty straight forward. It looked like the choices were either let Geneva leave or War with the Internationale. I avoided war this time, but next time I'll see what happens if I go hardline on it. I'm not sure what's going on in Austria. I saw an event about creating a federation and Hungary seemed to agree some stuff changed in the Yugoslavia area, but I thought that was supposed to lead to the Danubian Federation? Austria and Hungary are still separate and it's 1940 now and everybody else is already at war while Austria & Friends are just sitting there. One thing I never realized watching the Let's Plays was how many events were going on and how crazy this world is. I can't keep up with all the chaos.

I know he said he'd be innocent and there is little reason to think he would appear otherwise, but the way you worded that makes me think you are could be more sure of that result than you should be.