Enduar

Hitscan wouldn't make the MKII too overpowered considering how slowly it turns to begin with. Most of Nod's vehicles are fast enough to out-turn it, so you're usually only picked apart slowly by the machine gun. Also, it's been a while so I don't really remember, but did the MKII self-repair like it's supposed to? If that's the case, returning to base isn't really an issue when you can just hold position for a while after you wipe the floor clean of enemies. The teamwork required in order to front a successful MKII rush (can you really even call it a rush, considering how slow it is? ) more so involves protecting its weak flanks. A single stealth tank getting around and attacking from behind is enough to take one down simply because you'd never be able to turn fast enough to kill it. Infact, you're usually better off in that case just continuing on your merry way to fuck up the enemy base as much as you can until your (enormous amount of) health gets whittled down. I'm honestly curious to see how balancing plays out, since Nod has no real equivalent to the MKII- equality and similar roles being something that definitely shows in the infantry line up so far.

Hm. Alright, and what about maybe giving the Cyborg Commando the ability to track targets with his plasma ball, like he did in the RTS? I'm fairly certain that was discussed as well on the old forums. Now that these guys are getting a buff it would be reasonable to revisit how they play, since both of these would make them more dangerous in a way that simply isn't a damage/armor buff. I'm actually really happy to see the Flamethrower unlock for the CC (Though I'm kind of afraid to see him fire both the plasma ball and flamethrower at the same time like when we saw it).

I vaguely remember shock troopers being a nuisance, but mostly it was snipers (that was a lovely short thread, right?) that I had an issue with I think. Shock Trooper of course had that little issue where it's an anti-everything sort of unit, which I guess would carry over to the ghost stalker. I think providing a pretty slow reload time on the GS railgun combined with limited range in the first place might be sufficient, but who knows. The shocky actually fired in pretty quick succession. Ghost Stalker had a pretty damn slow reload time in the RTS after all, and I don't know if the drawback of hitscan would be quite as acute if it's just the one unit (even if that unit is a commando). Also, just a heads up, the pistols in Reborn were pretty ridiculously good. I distinctly remember that nobody much used the Chameleon Spy's knife simply because pistols would 2-shot kill anything if you got the headshot, I think. That of course may have been changed (and maybe it needed to be, but it was kind of fun). Edit: Also, hitscan is usually seen as OP because there's certain people with mutant-reflexes that can pop headshot with a weapon like they've been doing it since they're 2 years old. Personally I like a little random element when it comes to shooting guns in games, but with weapons like lasers and railguns it just seems right to have it travel instantly. Problem is, though hitscan is the "Fastest" (instant) projectile you can get, there's no way to program accuracy deviation with it, I'm pretty sure. So there's no real middle ground, if you chose to have a "ridiculously fast moving projectile" it has to be 100% accurate, or as mentioned in that sniper thread I think the maximum projectile speed in W3D is 400~ meters per second. To give a reference of scale, modern sniper rifles have up to 800-900m/s muzzle velocity. Scale that up to the modern-day railgun the navy is working on (of which the weapon apparatus is the size of the bus- I'm not even sure how big the array of capacitors that power it is) and it shoots up to 5800m/s and moves with enough energy that it turns the air molecules it hits into a trail of plasma.

Right, I know they aren't. The MKII was hard to hit with, to begin with, considering the sheer width of the vehicle making the space between each rail easily wider than every Nod vehicle and some of their structures, even, haha. Anyway, I think there was a similarly long debate about that particular weapon as well for similar reasons (According to game lore the railguns are just about as hitscan as the lasers), which is the point I'm trying to make. Debates like this have happened, and will happen again at some point I'm sure. Edit: By the way, someone asked earlier if vehicles might fall under the ranking system, or if it's just infantry. Would that even be viable? (It was in TS, after all). Imagining a commando reach elite is just an abomination of the battlefield, but an elite MKII would just be nightmare fuel.

Didn't we have a pretty big discussion on the railguns for the MKII and the Ghost stalker not being hitscan on the old forums? I seem to remember something like that.

I've said enough, and I'd just be repeating myself to explain my views on this again when the reasons and evidence for my point is in plain sight. Meanwhile, 6 pages of pointless bitching and the Wally has spoken. Now we have a blue laser, instead of whatever color it was going to be before. So Shall It Be Writ, Until Next Blarg.

If it is meaningless, then there is no content to this blog and I stand corrected. We might as well be reading comics in the newspaper here, for all it counts for. But the opposition, refusal to cooperate with reasonable debate, and word bending I've been witnessing here either speaks volumes about the immutable hubris at work here within the leadership I've witnessed, or that this change is important/intended/planned to be introduce as is regardless of community opinion just as seriously as any other of the changes in this blog. Especially judging by such conditions I would bet that debate once actual effort has gone into the design and implementation would be infinitely more futile than what I attempt here and now. All I have said on the matter ends here. If Wally wishes to reply with reason (of which the motivations of his design still remain unsaid) then so be it, but there's nothing more for me to argue. Reason, respect, and empathy fall upon deaf ears here, where things seem to be more about a battle of will and assertion of authority, which I honestly care little for or I would have instead applied directly to the team rather than remain a simple part of the community. There's some strange irrational fear of discussion, as though it were a sign of weakness, here.

Even if the game breaches reality with it's own little twists of physics, here, we'd still be following the physics as determined by what we see in the game itself regardless. Seriously, if this argument simply boils down to the fact that you want to do things your way and you don't care about what anyone else says, or what the games were like, then just say it.

Yeah, no. Sorry Wally, but I don't think I'm being targeted for being from Reborn at all, but rather that there's just a mindset here that clashes with my kind of personality. Also, there's something that should be cleared up- An argument takes place when two sides debate a point, and the only clear point you've made so far is "I said it, so it will be so- God has spoken". You haven't actually committed any real discussion, and what replies you have made to me either grossly misunderstand posts that I have stated very clearly, or making it clear that the reason it is the way it is is because you're in charge. If necessary I can make quotes for further proof. Otherwise, what discussion there has been has been between the rest of us. As for this lovely semantics debate the argument has boiled down to, whether it's about a name or function (as though those are the only two options) I'll simply repeat again: Giving GDI a laser weapon, something that is purely indicative of the Nod faction, is lore breaching and nonsensical. Making a ballistic rifle, a mechanical device that ignites powder to fire a projectile, into a weapon that now somehow (magically) converts energy from an non-existent power source into a weapons-grade military laser via complicated focusing apparatus in something as small as a rifle that also then defies the physical constant of the speed of light is nonsensical. An Ion Cannon downsized to rifle form is equally ridiculous and has many of the same breaches of fundamental physics and reality as we know it. Is it clear yet what we're arguing about? Or is this going to turn into a discussion of the intricacies of the English language and its history so the topic can be further derailed into meaningless squabbles that only serve to inflame relations. We've already noted a simple, aesthetically pleasing, lore supporting alternative that does exactly what you want the upgrade to do anyways, which is to burn shit/damage over time, which is the incendiary ammunition upgrade. Which in all honestly seems like such an obvious choice that I'm honestly flipping my shit over here trying to figure out what the hell is so important about making it a laser that has drawn this out so far.

I think the context and meaning for the argument has been entirely missed, or diverted intentionally to retarded naming semantics. The point is here, at least for me and ICE who have been the ones arguing it for the most part is that: The mechanical design of a ballistic weapon is nothing even remotely comparable or related to a complicated laser or ion weapon. It's like saying a Toaster could be easily modified to make coffee. Get it, now? All Wally has done is assure us that the name is meaningless, but stated that the design and function of the weapon will remain the same (meaning it will remain, visibly, as a slow moving, physics defying laser that burns shit). The name is meaningless, the intent of the weapon is clear. Name it an ionpixieantimattershitrifle and it's still going to be a toaster blending coffee, in my eyes, and just about as comical. I am honestly astounded with the level of reading comprehension I'm witnessing here- There's either deliberate work here to obfuscate some very simple, rational arguments or due to some cosmic design of luck people are missing the seriously overstated, repeated points that are made in these posts.

Thanks. I figured it's necessary considering the posts I've been catching heat for. At any rate, maybe we can look back on this and laugh. Laugh for the same reasons we laughed at Renegade for having a laser minigun that had recoil, among other silly weapon designs that were probably just implemented because they were "cool".

I think we can pretty much drop the armory idea. I never figured they'd create a building asset just because I mentioned it, but I would like them to bear that sort of thing in mind when designing the code, so that if someone DID want to introduce external conditions to gain rank (like the armory) it would be possible without rewriting too much code. There's a lot of other useful things that sort of option being available could lend to, as well.

I suppose that is a question for Wally I could ask- If you pay to retain rank after dying, do you only keep the full rank you've achieved, or does it save ALL PROGRESS towards rank? Also, it isn't even the name of the weapon, it's the name of an upgrade of a weapon. But that's not necessarily the point. The name speaks of the intent, and the fact is ever since I pointed it out I've been opposed. In that sense it's been made pretty apparent that breaking lore, making nonsensical breaches of the laws of physics, and the like isn't really a high priority, or perhaps I'm simply being opposed because it's me pointing it out and they didn't notice it themselves. Unless of course the general consensus is that giving GDI laser weaponry is a good idea. Or that having nonsensical Starwars-esque lasers in Reborn makes sense, even though every other laser weapon acts like a real laser would, for the most part. So do you see why I might continue to get defensive in light of the sort of reaction I've seen to even mentioning it? Such opposition could only mean that it was either more than a name of a weapon, or simply that me alone suggesting something isn't wanted here. More and more I feel like this move to BHP has planted me in hostile waters, where my presence and my opinion is not only unappreciated, but reviled simply because it challenges authority by making suggestions to their plan. Even for things as frivolous and stupid as this. I can't imagine the backlash I'd get when it comes to anything major.

It's an accelerant for larger maps. Maps that traditionally play slower. Maps in particular that usually have less infantry combat. The veterency structure would serve to reveal the gameplay of the ranking system that would otherwise be invisible on maps where infantry combat and gaining rank would be too rare to achieve veteran status through normal means. And since you seem to get confused about my posts for some reason I'll state the idea clearly in a single post to stop it. This idea is suggested for larger maps as a way to stimulate infantry combat and buffer the rank system for infantry, making it easier in a scenario where presumably rank would be harder to obtain due to combat being slowed down significantly. It would also serve to help alleviate turtling by teams by providing a capturable advantage in the field, requiring people to actually leave the base to capture/defend it, or willingly afford an advantage to the other team- something that is currently only achieved by the vulnerability of a harvester in the Tiberium Field, assuming the field is outside of the base's defensive capabilities. The veterancy structure would likely be an invincible structure captured through hacking that allows players to pay for veterancy. It would be able to pass to either team should it be hacked again, allowing it to be conquered repeatedly during a single match. The cost would vary between different units, being much less for cheaper units, and much more for higher cost units. Never did I mention that it would instantly rank you to elite, but rather implied that paying for rank would just incrementally increase you to the next level. Also, as far as I know, you are unable to buy rank in your own base UNLESS you have attained rank with that unit before hand and are re-purchasing it after death. The veterancy structure is unrelated to that. Maps where infantry combat is not lacking, or where turtling is not an issue would likely not require an "aggression stimulant" like the veterancy structure, and as such the balance issues involved with them do not apply as mappers wouldn't want to include it on those particular maps anyways, unless for a specific reason. I think the issue here is not that I don't think out my replies, but that you don't understand them, or don't grasp the full picture- something that again, I suppose, might be a lack of clarity on my behalf that I'll continue to try and fix. The veterency structure isn't even necessarily something that is related to core design, but might instead simply just be an option to consider while the ranking code is placed incase the team or mappers ever wishes to install any means of external manipulation of the ranking system. This would include modifiers to make gaining rank quicker through certain achievements (such as completing an objective on an objective-based COOP map) or other things. The laser discussion is simply a breach of lore and the laws of physics that irks me, especially when such a more reasonable alternative is available- that is all.

By my experience "waiting to see" is just another reason for it to lay stagnant and wrong just because the work's already been put into it. Especially so for a mod that is purely free-time. Lack of protest can easily be mistaken for silent endorsement.

I'm harassing you about it because it really is just that ridiculous to me. If calling it "laser ammo" is as insubstantial to it's role and function as you say it is, then fine. Honestly if you're going to stop telling us progress due to criticism it's your choice, and I would honestly say it's nothing those of us who've been following Reborn for the last couple of years aren't used to. If the least we have to complain about is, as you say, only a name, then maybe you should pay attention to the rest of the posts. It's easy only to notice the bad, but we've all been pretty happy with what we see so far, and we all care about what's posted here or we wouldn't be posting. I shouldn't have to say this, though, but part of creating anything is having a reaction to it. And you know? If you want to just make a game for only yourself to see, that's up to you, but as far as I know we're all here together for this. Don't take this all so negatively. If we were upset with the direction of Reborn it would be a lot more obvious than this. You see more bad than good because there's nothing to argue about for the good stuff, and predictably there's differing opinions about the stuff that is bad.

Which is why the price would need to scale for higher teir units, especially the commandos. It wouldn't be a free upgrade, obviously. You'd pay for it just like anything else. I mentioned Star Wars because it's one of the main Scifi franchises that catches a lot of shit for making lasers use projectile, non-light physics. Having a laser weapon that doesn't move the speed of light is ludicrous and makes the weapon a joke. Every other laser in this game, the RTS, Renegade, etc (even the shitty games EA made had lasers work right, AFAIK), travel instantly. Introducing a laser that magically just "travels slower" for no reason other than the fact that you want it to look like a laser and not fuck up balance by being hitscan is ridiculous. Having a GDI unit use Nod tech, something they traditionally never do, is ridiculous. I'm trying to work out your reasoning for making the weapon turn into a laser and I can't really see it, considering there are other far more obvious/logical alternatives. I understand it's not up to me- you're the one with Lead Producer next to your name, up there. But in the end I can say with confidence that I'm not alone in thinking this. It makes no sense. While we're at it we might as well say the Jump Jet flies because of magical pixie farts and give GDI stealth tech. Honestly I'm not sure why we're still debating this, the Incendiary ammo alternative is functionally identical to your magic laser upgrade, and would probably even visually look similar. Unless for some reason incendiary bullets just aren't allowed in the Tiberian Sun universe, but light travelling less than 299,792,458 meters per second is totally viable. I'm not even going to get started with the railguns. Edit: Even if physical constants like the Speed of Light aren't important to you, GDI using Nod tech on a whim should be.

The veterancy structure is clearly more of a mapper's tool. When applied generally to gameplay it WOULD water down gameplay and make the ranking system more meaningless, but when applied only to larger maps that play slower it would instead help neutralize the stalemate tendency of these games and provide a middle ground for combat, and a front for building strength and mounting assaults with buffed infantry. As it is, the only other real time-based, advantageous strategies in these games are superweapons and the ability to gather enough resources to front a successful rush. While both are valid and beneficial to gameplay, introducing something like the Armory on larger maps would help alleviate the tendency to turtle by making a real reason to venture out of base to secure a tactical advantage, or simply keep it from the enemy. This holds true for most any capturable tech building, though, which is why I hope to see things like it in the map design of Reborn. Also, C4 for Umagon wouldn't fit the balance. I think what Wally is trying to do here is match her Nod counterpart with similar damage-over-time. Honestly though... A laser? Wouldn't it be more sensible to just make it an incendiary round, ESPECIALLY since you're not going to make it hitscan? I mean, lets face it, this isn't Star Wars. Lasers travel the speed of light. If you want a scoped auto-rifle that burns shit and isn't hit scan, incendiary ammo is entirely plausible and doesn't throw the laws of physics and weapon design out the window.

I should have made it more clear that my response to the capture-able armory structure would be an addition to the existing veterancy system, as a way to more quickly gain rank. Not to replace the system. Mostly it would just be a neutral structure for mappers, nothing the core game depends on. Also, I think the armor piercing rounds will likely bleed over into health, not ignore armor completely (I think there's some units in APB that behave similarly. Medium Tank, I believe?).

I think having to enter the veterancy building and utilize it directly would be better for gameplay. Teams who wished to benefit from it would be forced to defend it if they wanted to maintain the advantage, and particularly on larger maps it would make for an interesting strategic point of interest. Something to make the map seem less barren and add another "hot spot" for combat outside of bases, choke points, and Tiberium Fields/harvester routes. Adding a few neutral defenses to the structure would make things even more interesting. Of course, this has more to do with mapping than the core game mechanics themselves.

Hm. Neutral, capture-able tech where you can pay to rank up? That sounds pretty good, but the cost sure would need to scale up for better units. I can only imagine the horror of a fully ranked Cyborg Commando or Ghost Stalker.

I'm pretty sure he mentioned in an earlier blog that you would have to earn rank every match, which is pretty reasonable. Equal playing grounds for both new and old players, that way.

Looks pretty good, but the laser ammunition for Umagon is a little strange, if only because she's GDI and her weapon doesn't look anything like a laser weapon. Also to change things up and make Nod a little trickier, would it be reasonable to consider making a final tier upgrade for one of their units a temporary cloaking device? Something that would let them stealth for a short duration of time, perhaps at a penalty to their ability to move quickly (or at all). Something like that would make a unit like the Confessor or another unit very good for guerrilla tactics and exemplify the kind of strategies Nod is suppose to excel at. At any rate, I'm looking forward to how this turns out. Also, is there any word on the ability to "preserve rank" for certain units by paying extra? I'd like to know how that is supposed to play out.

Ice beat me to it. Yeah, unless the hammer is being pulled back by a mechanical force (such as the pull of a trigger) the weapon is likely being fired electrically, and... in the case of a minigun and the arm cannon/rocket launcher thing, the former is certainly controlled by electronics, and the latter is clearly the entire portion of the arm and logically controlled by an electrical signal to the firing mechanism. And really, due to how much of the cyborg is controlled by machinery it's likely one effected by EMP would go into a sort of coma until the system reboots making him pretty much inert. At any rate. I was really hoping the effect on infantry would be a simple one to carry over, or atleast simulate in a similar fashion to vehicles. This kind of sucks. Having cyborgs be vulnerable to EMP would have been more reason to buff them and make them something really fearsome to go up against. Atleast the Reaper still functions like a vehicle, as far as I know, so it should be effected by EMP all the same.

We're discussing "lore", not making suggestions to the game itself. I already know Cyborgs and their reaction to EMP is up in the air on account of engine/balance limitations.