ts Dev.Blog 3 - Lethal Weapon 3 (11/7/2011)

[Guest APB_ICE]

If it has a motor, it is a chaingun, if it is recoil, a minigun,

Thats what I thought also...

WRONG; Both chainguns and miniguns are electromechanically-driven. A chaingun is single-barrelled, and a Gatling/minigun is multi-barrelled.

 

http://en.wikipedia....om_Gatling_guns

Edited November 8, 2011 by APB_ICE

[Guest r315r4z0r]

Meh, it would be fun to try. Whats the worst that could happen? Snipers were removed, so there is no reason for limited ammo anyway.

It isn't really about snipers. It's about the effect it has on gameplay.

 

With unlimited ammo, you force the game's balance to be less diverse. Since any one infantry unit can use their primary weapons indefinitely, they need to be balanced in a way that doesn't make them too strong verse other units. This balance has to come in the form of how useful the weapon is (like how fast it fires or how much damage it does) However, if there is a limit on ammunition, then you're free to balance the game more extremely making some units incredibly powerful in certain situations since you now gain the ability to counterbalance the weapon's usefulness with how much ammunition they can carry.

 

For example, what if you had a character with a powerful explosive weapon that could kill any player within its large blast radius? Now, which would you find more suitable: limit the use of that weapon or allow it to be used endlessly? Now, granted that is an extreme example and a weapon like that would obviously never be even considered, but hypothetically it does get the idea across, I think, since it's obvious that the game would play very differently if that weapon was limited as opposed to if it was infinite.

Edited November 8, 2011 by r315r4z0r

[Guest Retaliation]

If it has a motor, it is a chaingun, if it is recoil, a minigun,

Thats what I thought also...

WRONG; Both chainguns and miniguns are electromechanically-driven. A chaingun is single-barrelled, and a Gatling/minigun is multi-barrelled.

 

http://en.wikipedia....om_Gatling_guns

 

*high-five*

 

@razor The obvious solution in that scenario is to make it a one time use weapon . Just because most weapons have infinite ammo doesn't mean they all should. Plus it kind of penalizes you for fighting. Combined with the importance of momentum in these games it could easily result in infantry running out of ammo during an assault giving defenders another advantage with their capability to resupply easily from their base.

[Guest r315r4z0r]

Those are all actually reasons why I support limited ammo, tbh.

 

But like I said, the example i gave was an extreme one to get the idea across. You have to apply it realistically to weapons in the game. A weapon that is infinite will usually do less damage as opposed to if it was limited simply because it would have the ability to do more damage over a length of time if it had unlimited ammo.

 

Either way the gameplay will be different. But we are going off topic. I trust that Wally knows what he is doing.

Edited November 8, 2011 by r315r4z0r

[Guest Sonarpulse]

How about the cyborg's secondary is a volcov-like cannon? That's what it looks like to me. :emot-v:

 

Edit: And an excellent back-to-the-basics blog. Wanna do another infantry beta?

Edited November 8, 2011 by Sonarpulse

[Guest Dukat863]

Mutant Hijacker

*Crowbar

Can we have a red Crowbar?

[Wallywood]

Sure if you make a skin for your self.

[Enduar]

I'm for having limited ammo. Troop movement in Reborn is arguably much easier, and much more important than it is in APB considering the unique and varied kinds of transport vehicles. At any rate, I'd like the option to at least remain flexible to see what works best as the game becomes more concrete.

 

A question, though: I believe decoy mines were something myself and others were very recently discussing/suggesting back on the old forums. How will they function? I had suggested that aside from being a distraction, they would also explode when engineers attempt to disarm them, killing the player but being relatively useless against the building as an additional way to hamper things. Will this be true, or did you have some other use in mind?

[Wallywood]

Most of Reborn's Infantry will be getting unlimited ammo. I don't see the point in have to run back to base just to refill and that concept alone has always bugged the crap out of me about Renegade. Also Decoy mines are aimed to trigger the Base under attack announcements. So it can help run distractions.

[Guest CaptainMagenta]

Are you wanting the Nod Cyborg (regular variety) to be an anti-tank infantry, as well as anti-infantry?

 

I agree that there's no reason why he couldn't have a rocket arm, but if you give him rockets, it would seem a bit weird if they didn't damage vehicles very much. Kind of of like how stupid it feels in APB when you fire the Redeye at vehicles (not that I have a better solution guys.) And of course, in TS, the Cyborg could only whittle down vehicle health slowly with his gun.

 

Have no idea how you're aiming to balance things. But not sure whether the Cyborg should be anti-everything. So ICE might be onto something, just because a grenade launcher would be easier to make into an anti-structure weapon, without seeming weird if it didn't hurt armoured vehicles. I don't care what it should be according to the cut scenes. Hell, the second Cyborg that fires makes a rockety sound, if you ask me.

[Guest ma1kel]

Very interesting infantry units and weapons, can't wait to try them out. I'm not that familiar with Tiberian Sun, is the Chameleon Spy a stealthed unit? Will there be beacons like Renegade has in Reborn? One thing I dislike about Renegade is how overpowered Stealth Black Hands (and Nod in general) are in marathon games, with their 1 Timed C4, lots of HP, good speed, low cost and powerful Laser Rfile. I see the Chameleon Spy has fake C4, which sounds like a really good thing. Will it also be slower and/or weaker than SBHs are in Renegade?

 

And are you guys considering allowing weapons to be purchased (for a higher price) after the infantry production facility has been destroyed? It would also be cool to be able have vehicles brought in for a higher price or with other restrictions when the vehicle production facility is destroyed. How will the economy system function? One thing that I always thought would be nice to have is a 0.5-1.0 credit per second continuous credit tick, even after the Refinery and all Silos are destroyed. This would make games more interesting and less shallow, i.e. it wouldn't result in almost auto-wins if you destroy a team's War Factory or Ore Refinery early in the game, which makes destroying these kind of buildings a substantially higher priority in Renegade and APB than they should be, especially the War Factory in APB.

 

I also like the veteran system idea, I played on some Renegade servers which had this system as a server-side mod and I loved it, especially in marathon games, will there be unit specific "upgrades" and capabilities you get after being promoted? For example, being only able to buy hero units when your a certain rank would make a tech system fairly obsolete. Being granted a new weapon for a specific unit after getting promoted would also be nice.

 

Will there be crates like in Renegade and spawn weapons? I dislike Renegade's crate system as the crates are placed all over a map in places that are faster to reach for a team, for example on City_Flying the crates can spawn close to a team's tunnel and it can provide 200 credits after picking up, which gives that team a huge advantage in getting an earlier tank out. I also dislike Renegade's spawn weapons because they give random weapons instead of specific ones that would be nice to have as an exclusive power-up. Redesigning the crate system and placement to be placed as neutral as possible in the middle of the field would be great, as would having spawn weapons that give one or two exclusive weapons.

Edited November 8, 2011 by ma1kel

[Guest Dukat863]

Most of Reborn's Infantry will be getting unlimited ammo. I don't see the point in have to run back to base just to refill and that concept alone has always bugged the crap out of me about Renegade. Also Decoy mines are aimed to trigger the Base under attack announcements. So it can help run distractions.

Battlefield got limited ammo, but a squad can hold for long time. Why?

Because of Medic/Assault and Support classes.

We got medic, now we need Support.

[Guest APB_ICE]

And are you guys considering allowing weapons to be purchased (for a higher price) after the infantry production facility has been destroyed? It would also be cool to be able have vehicles brought in for a higher price or with other restrictions when the vehicle production facility is destroyed.

This is both unrealistic (depending on your concept) and would completely go against C&C. If you're Barracks is destroyed, you're stuck with Light Infantry and Techies. If your Factory is destroyed, no more vehicles. Deal with it. Even better, defend your base so your buildings actually don't get destroyed. :emot-geno:

 

Personally, I think that it would be cool to have a 25% - 50% price-increase if a team's power plant is destroyed, in addition to double or triple production-time like APB is supposed to have. It makes sense, too, as lack of power would result in increased costs and higher production-time, since many of the Factory's automated processes would now have to be done manually (Sure, the Factory would have backup generators, but they can only do so much.). It also gives more incentive to defend the power plant on maps without Obelisks or AA defences.

Edited November 8, 2011 by APB_ICE

[VERTi60]

Is the nod commando going to get a C4 just like the gdi one?

[Guest Mei Terumi]

Is the officers minigun/chaingun (call it what you want) the new model? because i'm aware that in one of the older blogs or pictures postsed by the reborn staff that the old version got a new model and texture. But it wasn't featured in the latest internal beta of reborn. So whats happening to it? hope it's not a lost model.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Sn1p3r87

[Guest ma1kel]

How is it unrealistic to be able to airdrop in vehicles after your War Factory is down? It actually would make a lot of sense, GDI or Nod aren't gonna let a base get lost just because one building is down. in C&C games you could just rebuild the War Factory unless you're out of resources or your construction yard is destroyed. Being able to rebuild the building would be a bit out of place for an FPS game (and it doesn't work nicely cosmetically with scripts 4.0), the ability the rebuild minor base defences, which Reborn already supports makes a lot of sense. Being able to airdrop in vehicles with limitations also makes a lot of sense as an alternative to being able to rebuild the War Factory.

Edited November 8, 2011 by ma1kel

[VERTi60]

Perhaps via terminal in comm center?

[Guest Pyrodaimon]

How is it unrealistic to be able to airdrop in vehicles after your War Factory is down? It actually would make a lot of sense, GDI or Nod aren't gonna let a base get lost just because one building is down. in C&C games you could just rebuild the War Factory unless you're out of resources or your construction yard is destroyed. Being able to rebuild the building would be a bit out of place for an FPS game (and it doesn't work nicely cosmetically with scripts 4.0), the ability the rebuild minor base defences, which Reborn already supports makes a lot of sense. Being able to airdrop in vehicles with limitations also makes a lot of sense as an alternative to being able to rebuild the War Factory.

 

The thing is that losing your War Factory or barr is supposed to cripple your production capabilities. It has been that way since Renegade, then carried over to APB, AR and Reborn. If you want to have vehicles, then protect your War Factory. That's all you can really do.

[Guest ma1kel]

Perhaps via terminal in comm center?

Might be possible with Set_Can_Generate_Vehicles(true) after the War Factory is down, then hooking vehicle purchases and blocking them and doing the actual vehicle drop off. This way the normal PT can be used, I think. Might be an interesting idea to link this ability to the comm center being online.

Edited November 8, 2011 by ma1kel

[Guest APB_ICE]

How is it unrealistic to be able to airdrop in vehicles after your War Factory is down? It actually would make a lot of sense, GDI or Nod aren't gonna let a base get lost just because one building is down. in C&C games you could just rebuild the War Factory unless you're out of resources or your construction yard is destroyed. Being able to rebuild the building would be a bit out of place for an FPS game (and it doesn't work nicely cosmetically with scripts 4.0), the ability the rebuild minor base defences, which Reborn already supports makes a lot of sense. Being able to airdrop in vehicles with limitations also makes a lot of sense as an alternative to being able to rebuild the War Factory.

Like I said, "depending on your concept". Airdropping/Carryalling a limited number of basic vehicles (Wolverines, Buggies, Cycles, maybe Titans and Tick Tanks) would be acceptable on maps with a Comm' Centre, but anything more would decrease the War Factory's importance too much.

 

Also,

The thing is that losing your War Factory or barr is supposed to cripple your production capabilities. It has been that way since Renegade, then carried over to APB, AR and Reborn. If you want to have vehicles, then protect your War Factory. That's all you can really do.

[Guest ma1kel]

Yes, and then half your team quits when you lose your Refinery or War Factory in the first few minutes of the game (always happens when playing APB, understandably). You're basically saying the game should end when this happens as a team isn't allowed to win a game when they lose their War Factory and manage to survive for the rest of the match, but if the enemy destroys the Power Plant, Comm center/Radar Dome, Missile Silo, Service Depot, advanced base defence(s) or Barracks they can hold on just fine.

Edited November 8, 2011 by ma1kel

[Guest Leonis]

Yes, and then half your team quits when you lose your Refinery or War Factory in the first few minutes of the game.

 

That's the players' problem for being sore losers than game mechanics.

[Guest ma1kel]

Nope, it's a game mechanics problem. There's no reason for the game to go on starting from the point you lose your Refinery or War Factory early in the game and therefore people are gonna do something else. Luckily most of the time the enemy team will only take 10 minutes or so to stop killwhoring and end the game but sometimes they will continue to killwhore till the timer runs out, at that point at least half of the losing team will quit. It's even been suggested before to have the game end 5 minutes after the War Factory dies.

Edited November 8, 2011 by ma1kel

[Guest APB_ICE]

I don't want to sound like an asshole, but people need to learn to defend their base instead of whining about losing their Factory/Refinery and ragequitting.

 

When I play, I always tell my team "Hold position." "Defend the base!"

 

If they don't and attack anyway, then I will stay behind myself, because it's pretty much guaranteed that as soon as a team leaves their base, the enemy team shows up and trashes the place.

Edited November 8, 2011 by APB_ICE

[Guest credulo]

This vehicle airdrop should just work in maps that have some sort of comm center... radar... But yea, we should just use those low-tier vehicles and also, make that airdrop more expensive, like the normal price x2 ... something like that...

 

BUT, I didn't liked the NOD Carryall in TW/KW ... IMO that "dropoff" should just be available with GDI APCs comming from a dropship/carryall and the NOD Sub APC , just popping from the ground, like some dude said here times ago...

Edited November 8, 2011 by credulo

[Guest indios85]

the importance of not been able to buy vehicles would depend if the maps are not so open like apb and if they deside to added demolition units later, shooting a building whit tanks souldnt be the only way of destroy them, sneaking whit C4 and place them on the MCT sould still be a tactic in this game otter than that what is the purpose of keep playing if your War Factory is down, there is no sence if inf is not able to take down buildings in a fast way if they manage to infiltrate enemy base, even whit out bar you could rush whit engis and remotes in renegade and if that is out of this game then i agree whit leaving the game if the buildings you need in order to purchece vehicles or advance inf are down. all Infantry units should carry a standar timed C4 that at least could take down 1/3 healt of a building.

Edited November 8, 2011 by indios85

[madrox8]

Nope, it's a game mechanics problem. There's no reason for the game to go on starting from the point you lose your Refinery or War Factory early in the game and therefore people are gonna do something else. Luckily most of the time the enemy team will only take 10 minutes or so to stop killwhoring and end the game but sometimes they will continue to killwhore till the timer runs out, at that point at least half of the losing team will quit. It's even been suggested before to have the game end 5 minutes after the War Factory dies.

 

the reason killwhoreing is around is mostly due to oxi stats, people dont want to win, they want to have something to say they are number 1 at something or do it for achievment whoreing (medals), and because oxi stats keeps track of so many leader boards for every unit, K/D and other stuff you can think of, why would you want to just win the game that will not improve stats overal?

 

the oxi stat system is good but its the dumb people who think being number 1 by points is more important then winning the match, and if they looe a structure that enables a point whoreing unit those players will quit, if the team looses a building that enables a good killwhoreing unit, those killwhore players will quit, if you know where a sniper killwhore camps, and kill him 2-3 times in a row without him getting a kill, he will quit.

 

if you want people to stay in the game and play how the game is ment to be played then the oxi stats need to be completly changed to set more objective to the destruction of the base then reward the kill / point whores, this is just my personal opinion on the matter

 

or option B is to give a big hand holding situation if the enemy looses the War Factory then you loose it as well to keep a fair game and tie games so no one is a looser and everyone can have fun /sarcasum

[Wallywood]

I think there are tons of people not understanding here.

 

*The Cyborg will be good against both Vehicles and Infantry.

*Cham. Spy will be give a knife and a pistol has his attack weapons.

*NO, IF you loose your WF and Bar/HON then you will not be able to buy WF/Bar/HON units

*NO the power plant being lost will not double the cost of units.

*Ghost stalker is the only one getting C4 that will be able to take down a building.

*You can take a building with attacking it with vehicles or hacking

*Beacons will only be able to be bought on maps with Missile Silos and Upgrade centers

*Also certain units will not be able to drive vehicles only ride in APCs

 

Hope this clears some stuff up.

[Guest ma1kel]

I doubt oxistats influences killwhoring that much, I see it happen in both APB and Renegade. It's easier to do in APB with certain vehicles like Artillery, APCs, Tesla Tanks and Mammoth Tanks. Both randoms (which I doubt even know the stats exist) and regulars do it.

Edited November 8, 2011 by ma1kel

[Guest Leonis]

 

*Also certain units will not be able to drive vehicles only ride in APCs

 

 

Whoa. Serious? Have you guys decided which units can't drive?