ts Dev.Blog 3 - Lethal Weapon 3 (11/7/2011)

[Guest r315r4z0r]

I agree with ICE. The PP should have it's own importance rather than just being an extension of some other structure.

 

Think about it. If the base defenses get destroyed before the powerplant does, then you just have a worthless structure sitting there in your base that provides no benefit to your team.

[Enduar]

Funny part about that is even some of the most "Realistic" games I've played... Essentially no game has ammunition limits on their vehicles unless it's a game based almost entirely on said vehicles.

As for the Limited/Unlimited ammo deal...

*Running out of ammo makes you have to run all the way back to base.

*If your War Factory goes people WILL turtle

*Doesn't work well on larger maps

*Why would anyone use a unit for attacking when they could just use a vehicle

All of these are eliminated or made negligible by my suggestion to turn the APCs into supply points.

*Not true to any C&C RTS style game.

*This is NOT RENEGADE

*90% of wanting limited ammo bases their logic off other FPS (COD,BF,Halo) and have weapon/ammo pick ups

My motivation here isn't to base it on any game, but instead to encourage real thought and strategy behind actions and teamwork through fluid sensible game mechanics. Infact one of the primary driving forces for even arguing this point is because it's clear to me that unlimited ammo allows lone-wolf and selfish players to manifest in a team too easily. Limited ammo, while not eliminating anything lone wolf, still allows it but encourages players to operate as a team if they hope to accomplish something.

*Refilling is already enough of an issue in these styles of games, why add something else to make it harder to moderate

I thought it was the health gained through refills that made this an issue? All I've been suggesting is ammunition.

*The only good idea (APC PTs) doesn't make sense to WFs and would take way more coding then what its worth.

The last part of this I can actually understand, considering it's your own development time and I have no idea how possible it is to even implement.

 

Let me just make this clear, though- The reason I am suggesting anything about this at all (Specifically the APC acting as a supply point) is because I see an opportunity to encourage more thought behind actions, more team work among players, and more reason to keep playing after the war factory has been destroyed especially on larger maps.

 

Now... All that aside, I'm not really all that pleased with the reaction I'm seeing here. I've been logical, calm, and respectful and have only asked a few questions- Hell, I've only ever made 28 posts here. But so far it's been like pulling teeth just talking to you about this. On top of that I'm not even making suggestions to implement a very drastic change- It's focused on encouraging teamwork! Of all things to be suggested, I'm feeling the heat for suggesting something as neutral and mutually beneficial to the health and longevity of the game as this.

 

I understand I am a guest here. I understand you do not know me, and likewise I do not know most of the people here. I also understand that I should make a good impression. But what doesn't seem to make sense is that what appears to me as one of the least inflammatory gameplay choice debates here is being met with a degree of hostility- especially odd to me is that you're so adamant even to the consideration of change in your plan.

(Also, I agree with R3 who agrees with ICE about the Power Plants)

 

Anyway, I've said all I can about this and regardless of how you react to this post I doubt you'd want to hear more about it anyway.

 

So. That's all

 

 

^{_{...Until next blog...}}

[Wallywood]

Now... All that aside, I'm not really all that pleased with the reaction I'm seeing here. I've been logical, calm, and respectful and have only asked a few questions- Hell, I've only ever made 28 posts here. But so far it's been like pulling teeth just talking to you about this. On top of that I'm not even making suggestions to implement a very drastic change- It's focused on encouraging teamwork! Of all things to be suggested, I'm feeling the heat for suggesting something as neutral and mutually beneficial to the health and longevity of the game as this.

We have had this discussion on the Reborn forums and the BHP forums a few times already and I have given my reasons on both a few times. You continue to re ask the same questions that have already been answered because you aren't reading enough or you just don't like the answer given. I have stated my reasons. Also there was nothing directed at you in that post, It was to everyone.

 

Also I stated that a cost increase doesn't really make sense if you loose your Power Plant...Slower production however does make sense. The funding comes from the Harvester and Ref. Has nothing to do with the Power Plant at all.

[Guest Retaliation]

It's probably worth mentioning that a better idea for field resupply would be giving an officer type character a limited use ammo crate that either resupplies whoever picks it up or everyone in a radius.

 

Still I think what wally is trying to say is that limited ammo isn't worth implementing. It rarely comes into play unless your just that good, in which case it penalizes you for NOT dying and forcing you to go back to base. Something a vehicle would only have to do because it's damaged. If you put it low enough that it does come into play often enough to be worth implementing it completely limits the ability of infantry to fight prolonged battles while vehicles just have to remain alive to contribute to fights. This is why wally is saying that it would cause turtling, because infantry are not only slow, but would have to remain around a source of resupply (basically the base). Essentially limited ammo will either do nothing worth note, or will slow down the game by making base assaults less practical.

 

It's worth noting that in APB much of the time a structure is killed after most of the die and the infantry inside slaughter the guys repairing. Since it seems reborn is using the APB style of using primary weapons to damage buildings instead of the renegade explosive charge this would hamper infantry's ability to kill buildings alone because of the sheer amount of ammo you expend killing the building and trying to stop the enemy from interfering.

[Guest Kakashi]

Maybe you could decrease the maximum hitpoints of all structures and/or vehicles by 10 to 20 percent after the PP is down? Make the PP a building that softens up your position after being destroyed?

 

As for limited ammo, I wouldn't be opposed to it if there were certain units that could deploy ammo to their mates. Like engineers being able to deploy a moblie ammo station, maybe at some cost (say 150 to 300 credits) and any infantry (and maybe even tanks if you want to go one step further) that gets close will get an ammo replenishment. Of course certain items (like C4) should be excluded from this station, noone would want to have an enemy mobile C4 dispenser in their base. Also one engi could only place one of those stations and the station would dissapear eiter after a fixed amount of time or after the engineer that set it up died.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Kakashi

[Guest Dukat863]

*Running out of ammo makes you have to run all the way back to base.

*If your War Factory goes people WILL turtle

*Limited ammo numbs Infantry combat

*Doesn't work well on larger maps

*Refilling is already enough of an issue in these styles of games, why add something else to make it harder to modderate

*The only good idea (APC PTs) doesn't make sense to WFs and would take way more coding then what its worth.

*90% of wanting limited ammo bases their logic off other FPS (COD,BF,Halo) and have weapon/ammo pick ups

This can be fixed by adding a support class, just like in Battlefield. It got unlimited bags with ammo.

If the team don't have support, then it got bad cooperation. Bad cooperation = Bad team (full of n00bs) = Losers.

*Not true to any C&C RTS style game.

C&C4 RTS and FPS are different genres. Or you like comparing arcade to simulators too?

*Why would anyone use a unit for attacking when they could just use a vehicle

Team lost their war factory, they're in enemy base, or map doesn't have war factory at all.

 

P.S. I suggest to release never infantry beta, with support ideas.

[Guest credulo]

To be really honest, I wasn't expecting that big discussion about the PP's function. Yea, in Ren , the double-cost is too much, but I agree with the 15%~25% cost increase... Because if the stucture is only about powering base defenses, at late games (when usually most of those defenses are already down) it would be something useless... Also, some maps probably going to have a design that makes more easy to kill those RPG's and Obbies then the Power Plant itself

 

Slowing down production... That only can be simulated in the gameplay if you mean making vehicles take more time(secounds) to be produced... For infantry, that makes no effect at all...

Edited November 10, 2011 by credulo

[Guest Loyal2NES]

This can be fixed by adding a support class, just like in Battlefield. It got unlimited bags with ammo.

If the team don't have support, then it got bad cooperation. Bad cooperation = Bad team (full of n00bs) = Losers.

Can also be fixed by not having limited ammo in the first place. Oh hey look at that it's already implemented. Remind me why this is being considered again?

 

C&C4 RTS and FPS are different genres. Or you like comparing arcade to simulators too?

There was no limited ammo mechanics in the RTS outside of copters. Thematically it's appropriate for the same to apply here, except where balance is concerned (C4, etc) - Though not a conclusive argument on its own, it's at least in favor of keeping the unlimited ammo.

 

Team lost their war factory, they're in enemy base, or map doesn't have war factory at all.

In other words, when they have absolutely no other choice in the matter. What does that tell us?

 

I like how you completely ignored Retal's post two replies above yours.

[Guest Nod00]

I will say Im open to trying out limited ammo and supply units but if you guys want a mod out soon I would advise you to go easy on the possible addons or features. Obviously the goal is to make a playable and entertaining game. With the right feedback, thats what will be made. My question is what is more important? Some of these suggestions arent supported by Scripts yet or there is no plan to at this point in time. This being the case it would cause a long delay on any kind of release if we insisted on features that arent already available. TO be honest I just want to get in my Titan and run a couple things over. In addition, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE the TITAN CRUSH ENEMY VEHICLES like in C&C3... (dont tell me this isnt c&c3, its still the same TItan)

[Guest Leonis]

People wont stand around in the base all day because there is no fun in doing that. If they aren't going to play the game and just stand around in the base, why did they bother to download the game?

 

And if the War Factory is destroyed then you would obviously not have access to those field refills. It's just another reason to not let your War Factory get destroyed...

 

Think about this? Would the opposing team just chill around in their base if your War Factory is down? Obviously, you'd be facing onslaughts. Now, with limited ammo, I don't know how you are gonna attack when just one guy can pester you until you die or run out of ammo midfield.

 

As for the PP. I can see the logic behind 25% increase b/c less efficient production, but let's just stick to base defense shutdown for now.

 

I'd like to see the mod out before all the little intricacies.

[Guest dearlydie]

^ DITTO (With the PP Idea)

 

Exactly what i was thinking, seems a pretty good idea if you want the team to get off their asses and actually use some teamwork to defend the PP, maybe even have a randomizer which might take another building down due to low power if there isn't any base defences. As if the base defences are destroyed the PP (at the moment) would be useless, but if it was to take out a building due to low power, then thats another story, the team would have to defend the PP unless they want to be slaughtered.

 

^.^

Edited November 10, 2011 by dearlydie

[Guest APB_ICE]

To be really honest, I wasn't expecting that big discussion about the PP's function. Yea, in Ren , the double-cost is too much, but I agree with the 15%~25% cost increase... Because if the stucture is only about powering base defenses, at late games (when usually most of those defenses are already down) it would be something useless... Also, some maps probably going to have a design that makes more easy to kill those RPG's and Obbies then the Power Plant itself

That, plus the fact that, without electricity, things would take much more effort to produce (Factory) or equip (Barracks), because many automated processes would have to be done manually.

(Yes, buildings would have backup generators IRL, but those can only go so far.)

 

Slowing down production... That only can be simulated in the gameplay if you mean making vehicles take more time(secounds) to be produced... For infantry, that makes no effect at all...

This is exactly what I meant; Vehicles at the factory would take double-time to produce, so instead of taking, say, 5 seconds to build a Titan, it would take 10 seconds.

Edited November 10, 2011 by APB_ICE

[Guest r315r4z0r]

Also I stated that a cost increase doesn't really make sense if you loose your Power Plant...Slower production however does make sense. The funding comes from the Harvester and Ore Refinery. Has nothing to do with the Power Plant at all.

Why don't you think it makes any sense? I think it makes perfect sense.

 

Yes the harvester and the refinery are what is responsible for funding. But what does funding have to do with production cost? You are going to be getting the same amount of income regardless of if your power is on or off. However, the prices for various items does make sense to increase if the power goes offline. No power means no access to more tools and machines that require power to function and thus make creating the final product not only take longer but cost more.

[Raptor29aa]

Ok Three things (thank you taking the time to respond to my last post)

 

1:) PP giving a 10% tax isn't threatening... annoying, but nothing game breaking. I just hate renegade's double price.

10% would make a 500$ wolverine into a 550$... 50$ not much. MKII 2400 -> 2640 not that bad either.

20% would make a 500$ wolverine into a 600$...100$ no way! MKII 2400 -> 2880 heck no... that's almost 3000 / 4 tib. dumps.

5% = lol nothing. 500$ wolverine into a 525$... LOL.

 

2:) AA rocketman... will he get a pistol or uzi... or maybe uzi is the elite weapon?

 

3:) @Enduar and ALL on limited vs. unlimited.

Theory states there is no damage difference... just damage potential

If max damage potential is unlimited ammo (Infinite damage)

Then limited ammo nerfs a unit capping its ammo supply/damage potential. (How much damage should be between refill?)

Therefore: The question is do we want to limit the damage potential of infantry?

Or in layman's terms would you like to kill more than one building at a time as a GDI or Nod foot solder?

 

Side Note History: Renegade had random weapon spawns in the field, yellow refill crates in the field, and buffed APC armor because they saw that games with limited ammo needed a away to refill other than walking back to base. They knew critics would tare them apart and give bad rating for any such annoyances.

 

@Enduar I hope this is logical enough for you, If not then I will edit my statement. I for one favor unlimited potential for devastation.

[Guest kamuixmod]

about the limited ammo, i think it should be implented but just for those things which can be whored when they have unlimited ammo, for example sniper guns.

 

about the PP, yeah it needs something else as well to give it another importance except the thing that the base def goes offline. What about that if you loose your pp, you automaticly loose your ability to buy and place beacons

[Guest Retaliation]

Might as well suggest that harvesters return a reduced amount of credits per dump. Nothing major of course maybe a reduction of 50 credits per load. Refining after all is an energy intense process and I doubt that the refinery's backup generator is powerful to actually run at full capacity.

[Wallywood]

Can also be fixed by not having limited ammo in the first place. Oh hey look at that it's already implemented. Remind me why this is being considered again?

I guess some of them have selective reading. If they want limited ammo that bad I'll just set every units ammo count to 99,999,999,999,999,999,999,999. There now its limited.

[Guest APB_ICE]

1:) PP giving a 10% tax isn't threatening... annoying, but nothing game breaking. I just hate renegade's double price.

10% would make a 500$ wolverine into a 550$... 50$ not much. MKII 2400 -> 2640 not that bad either.

20% would make a 500$ wolverine into a 600$...100$ no way! MKII 2400 -> 2880 heck no... that's almost 3000 / 4 tib. dumps.

5% = lol nothing. 500$ wolverine into a 525$... LOL.

What about 15%? That would only add 75 credits to a 500 credit Wolverine.

 

Side Note History: Renegade had random weapon spawns in the field, yellow refill crates in the field, and buffed APC armor because they saw that games with limited ammo needed a away to refill other than walking back to base. They knew critics would tare them apart and give bad rating for any such annoyances.

... So instead, Renegade was criticized for its crappy netcode, poor graphics, and cartoony portrayal of Nod (Bright red Stealth Tanks???).

 

Can also be fixed by not having limited ammo in the first place. Oh hey look at that it's already implemented. Remind me why this is being considered again?

I guess some of them have selective reading. If they want limited ammo that bad I'll just set every units ammo count to 99,999,999,999,999,999,999,999. There now its limited.

Lol, every single player dies anyway before they even use one-trillionth of that amount.

Even if they don't die once, it's physically impossible to go through that much ammo in a standard 30-minute battle. :emot-v:

 

Hell, even 999 rounds of ammo is almost impossible to go through.

Edited November 10, 2011 by APB_ICE

[Wallywood]

Power Plant price increase probably will not be happening either now that I think about it. It won't work well with how we plan on doing our Vet. system.

[Guest Mei Terumi]

I agree with ICE. The PP should have it's own importance rather than just being an extension of some other structure.

 

Think about it. If the base defenses get destroyed before the powerplant does, then you just have a worthless structure sitting there in your base that provides no benefit to your team.

 

The most truth spoken in any words in along time

[Guest r315r4z0r]

Can also be fixed by not having limited ammo in the first place. Oh hey look at that it's already implemented. Remind me why this is being considered again?

I guess some of them have selective reading. If they want limited ammo that bad I'll just set every units ammo count to 99,999,999,999,999,999,999,999. There now its limited.

I think the debate about limited/unlimited ammo is a side discussion that isn't exactly pertaining to the discussion at hand but still somewhat relevant. That's why no one seems to be acknowledging what you've been saying: they already take it for granted that there is unlimited ammo. They are just exploring the idea of what it would be like if there wasn't.

 

You could sort of say that it's off topic discussion.

[Enduar]

Which is why I've said that if it becomes a problem (such as people beginning to think we all have selective reading/are idiots/only want the game to perform to our own whim) I would be more than happy to just ignore striking up discussion in the blogs and instead make more organized debates in General Discussion. Where people who don't like the topic can simply not participate.

 

There's a lot of psychology in gaming. Most of the suggestions I make are subtle ways to make people not simply need, but want to work together in the gaming environment. In a game so heavily based on teamwork like this, to encourage a play style that doesn't support the game's own core design element is something that causes things most people brush off as "Noobs and bad teamwork". A lot of the time, the reason why there's noobs and bad teamwork is because the gameplay allows it. If you don't have to think about what you're doing, why would you? Culling these options by limiting gameplay is one way to do it, but I prefer to introduce more tactical options if I'm ever going to suggest limiting something, which is what I've suggested here.

 

As for the Power Plant discussion, I think the general consensus here is that people don't like it's only purpose to be base defenses- and it sounds as though the cost increase would clash with the mentioned ability to pay extra to sustain veterancy or however that was going to work.. If I were to suggest something I would say perhaps it would have some serious implications on the advancement of tech levels (Slowing them down, even though Reborn is supposed to have less of them) or perhaps causing problems with the Radar or remote controlled things (Someone mentioned hunter killers, right?).

 

I think slowing production time just wouldn't be noticeable enough since the game pretty much entirely lacks that mechanic from the RTS.

[Guest r315r4z0r]

An increase in production time if a PP is destroyed COULD work if the delay is sufficient enough. 5 seconds isn't going to make any difference in the game at all. But maybe a 15 or 25 second delay might be more understandable. I mean REALLY delay it.

 

It should be delayed to the point where people fear having to deal with it and thus they wont want to let their PP get destroyed.

[Guest ChronoSeth]

Problem is, the PP still becomes a useless building when your War Factory is destroyed. (assuming it's late-game and the base defenses have already fallen)

 

Question: what necessitates the RPG tower requiring power? Is this just to balance it against the Obelisk? If so, seems unnecessary considering APB's setup (the vulcan and RPG towers in TS are basically mirror images of the pillbox and gun turret in RA).

[Guest Loyal2NES]

The RPG tower required power in TS, last I checked. It was a pretty gnarly piece of work compared to an ordinary Turret... when it didn't miss, that is.

[Guest ChronoSeth]

The RPG tower required power in TS, last I checked.

The upgrade system doesn't allow for the turrets to require power independently from the component tower, and since the component tower works with low power, so does the RPG turret.

 

I guess what I want to know is how effective the RPG tower is/will be in Reborn.

[Guest KevinLancaster]

Since Wally doesn't want the PP to affect production costs, I'm guessing that the farthest he'll go with it is:

-Turning off base defenses

-Slower production time

-Turning off radar

[Wallywood]

I have another idea for PP. Have to make sure it can be done first but I think it'll make to most sense. As for the ammo it will be unlimited and stay that way.

[Guest rs4015]

i <3 progress

[Guest Mei Terumi]

Never liked the powerplant effecting cost anyway. Impacts the soviets more due their expensive vechicles over the allies.