ts Dev.Blog 4 - Above the Ranks (11/14/2011)

[Guest ma1kel]

Ah, that's a pity because having a tech building like that in the middle of the field of a map would add extra depth to say to the game like the veterancy system, the multi-purpose units, the Component tower and Silo rebuy feature that reborn the guy showcased a few years ago and a lot of the other plans and features you have for Reborn. Are you guys planning to add "tech" buildings as a whole to maps, with the tech building capture system that was shown in one of the AR blogs or anything?

Edited November 15, 2011 by ma1kel

[Guest trarian]

Talking about fast-blogging, awesome that you are able to post this blog/topic that fast and even are able to fill it with information that could care uss

[Guest Leonis]

I still say that armour-piercing incendiary ammo would be much more believable and logical than "laser" shots.

 

Starfox! :emot-psyduck:

[madrox8]

nice blog there wally, can't wait to keep attacking as a technision so i can repair speedy fast

[Guest Generalcamo]

Why not give her C4, like she had in TS, for her elite upgrade, in addition to health regen?

[Enduar]

The veterancy structure is clearly more of a mapper's tool. When applied generally to gameplay it WOULD water down gameplay and make the ranking system more meaningless, but when applied only to larger maps that play slower it would instead help neutralize the stalemate tendency of these games and provide a middle ground for combat, and a front for building strength and mounting assaults with buffed infantry. As it is, the only other real time-based, advantageous strategies in these games are superweapons and the ability to gather enough resources to front a successful rush. While both are valid and beneficial to gameplay, introducing something like the Armory on larger maps would help alleviate the tendency to turtle by making a real reason to venture out of base to secure a tactical advantage, or simply keep it from the enemy.

 

This holds true for most any capturable tech building, though, which is why I hope to see things like it in the map design of Reborn.

 

Also, C4 for Umagon wouldn't fit the balance. I think what Wally is trying to do here is match her Nod counterpart with similar damage-over-time.

 

Honestly though... A laser? Wouldn't it be more sensible to just make it an incendiary round, ESPECIALLY since you're not going to make it hitscan? I mean, lets face it, this isn't Star Wars. Lasers travel the speed of light. If you want a scoped auto-rifle that burns shit and isn't hit scan, incendiary ammo is entirely plausible and doesn't throw the laws of physics and weapon design out the window.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Enduar

[Guest APB_ICE]

The veterancy structure is clearly more of a mapper's tool. When applied generally to gameplay it WOULD water down gameplay and make the ranking system more meaningless, but when applied only to larger maps that play slower it would instead help neutralize the stalemate tendency of these games and provide a middle ground for combat, and a front for building strength and mounting assaults with buffed infantry. As it is, the only other real time-based, advantageous strategies in these games are superweapons and the ability to gather enough resources to front a successful rush. While both are valid and beneficial to gameplay, introducing something like the Armory on larger maps would help alleviate the tendency to turtle by making a real reason to venture out of base to secure a tactical advantage, or simply keep it from the enemy.

I agree with this. In addition, it would also be highly nostalgic. The Armoury is, after all, one of the most well-known and iconic neutral buildings in Tiberian Sun, if not the entire early C&C series, right up there with Archer's Asylum.

 

Honestly though... A laser? Wouldn't it be more sensible to just make it an incendiary round, ESPECIALLY since you're not going to make it hitscan? I mean, lets face it, this isn't Star Wars; Lasers travel at the speed of light. If you want a scoped auto-rifle that burns shit and isn't hit scan, incendiary ammo is entirely plausible and doesn't throw the laws of physics and weapon design out the window.

Exactly.

Edited November 16, 2011 by APB_ICE

[Wallywood]

This holds true for most any capturable tech building, though, which is why I hope to see things like it in the map design of Reborn.

Well, I'm not going to provide the stuff needed to do this if its going to mess up the game-play, I guess if mappers wants to do it they'll have to do it themselves. But I see this being way too over powered. Elite Cyborg Commandos and Ghost stalkers are going to be a night mare at elite status. I don't see any reason to have them insta-rank to elite because you capture a building.

 

Honestly though... A laser? Wouldn't it be more sensible to just make it an incendiary round, ESPECIALLY since you're not going to make it hitscan? I mean, lets face it, this isn't Star Wars. Lasers travel the speed of light. If you want a scoped auto-rifle that burns shit and isn't hit scan, incendiary ammo is entirely plausible and doesn't throw the laws of physics and weapon design out the window.

 

Couple things here, No it isn't Star Wars but for the record Star Wars doesn't have a trade mark on lasers. Second, in most movies with guns with laser ammo. Hardly any of them travel at the speed of light. Third, There is not at all any in-game naming that you would be able to see that is going to classify the ammo as a Laser ammo. If you don't like it being called lasers so much call if what ever you want. Call it pinkish-light-burnery ammo for all I care but the basic idea is ammo that will burn you.

[Bfranx]

Whats the difference between a railgun and laser?

 

Railgun = blue

Laser = red

 

nothing else since bullet speed isnt an issue between the two

Edited November 16, 2011 by Bfranx

[madrox8]

Call it pinkish-light-burnery ammo for all I care but the basic idea is ammo that will burn you.

 

 

C&C 4 teached me thats when you know your hard countering

[Guest APB_ICE]

Couple things here, No it isn't Star Wars but for the record Star Wars doesn't have a trade mark on lasers. Second, in most movies with guns with laser ammo. Hardly any of them travel at the speed of light. Third, There is not at all any in-game naming that you would be able to see that is going to classify the ammo as a Laser ammo. If you don't like it being called lasers so much call if what ever you want. Call it pinkish-light-burnery ammo for all I care but the basic idea is ammo that will burn you.

Also, most of the "lasers" in Star Wars are actually plasma guns, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

Anyway, why not just say 'incendiary ammo' when describing the upgrade, and don't use a laser-like effect, but instead a regular bullet tracer with a different colour (orange?), and maybe some little effects which make it obviously different-looking from the regular bullet, yet also look clearly not like a laser? (Maybe a toned-down version of APB's 'Dragon's Breath' shot?)

Edited November 16, 2011 by APB_ICE

[Enduar]

Well, I'm not going to provide the stuff needed to do this if its going to mess up the game-play, I guess if mappers wants to do it they'll have to do it themselves. But I see this being way too over powered. Elite Cyborg Commandos and Ghost stalkers are going to be a night mare at elite status. I don't see any reason to have them insta-rank to elite because you capture a building.

Which is why the price would need to scale for higher teir units, especially the commandos. It wouldn't be a free upgrade, obviously. You'd pay for it just like anything else.

 

Couple things here, No it isn't Star Wars but for the record Star Wars doesn't have a trade mark on lasers. Second, in most movies with guns with laser ammo. Hardly any of them travel at the speed of light. Third, There is not at all any in-game naming that you would be able to see that is going to classify the ammo as a Laser ammo. If you don't like it being called lasers so much call if what ever you want. Call it pinkish-light-burnery ammo for all I care but the basic idea is ammo that will burn you.

I mentioned Star Wars because it's one of the main Scifi franchises that catches a lot of shit for making lasers use projectile, non-light physics. Having a laser weapon that doesn't move the speed of light is ludicrous and makes the weapon a joke. Every other laser in this game, the RTS, Renegade, etc (even the shitty games EA made had lasers work right, AFAIK), travel instantly. Introducing a laser that magically just "travels slower" for no reason other than the fact that you want it to look like a laser and not fuck up balance by being hitscan is ridiculous. Having a GDI unit use Nod tech, something they traditionally never do, is ridiculous.

 

I'm trying to work out your reasoning for making the weapon turn into a laser and I can't really see it, considering there are other far more obvious/logical alternatives. I understand it's not up to me- you're the one with Lead Producer next to your name, up there. But in the end I can say with confidence that I'm not alone in thinking this. It makes no sense.

 

While we're at it we might as well say the Jump Jet flies because of magical pixie farts and give GDI stealth tech.

 

Honestly I'm not sure why we're still debating this, the Incendiary ammo alternative is functionally identical to your magic laser upgrade, and would probably even visually look similar. Unless for some reason incendiary bullets just aren't allowed in the Tiberian Sun universe, but light travelling less than 299,792,458 meters per second is totally viable.

 

I'm not even going to get started with the railguns.

 

Edit: Even if physical constants like the Speed of Light aren't important to you, GDI using Nod tech on a whim should be.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Enduar

[Wallywood]

Are you guys really going to nit pick about an ammo name? If this how these blogs are going to turn out every time. I will stop posting updates. Instead of looking at whats important in the update you guys sperg out over very simple things. The ammo she will get will be a laser colored ammo that does burn damage, call it what ever you want. The only way you would even be able to see the name of it would be in level edit. And just for shits and giggles I think we will name it "pinkish-light-burnery ammo" just to prove how un-important it is.

[madrox8]

to be honest, it really dosent matter what things are called or named, games are made of images and numbers that tell the game to do things, you can modle a broom that projectile exits the poofy brush stuff and on contact activate nuke animation that will do 3 damage to units in the radious of a map.

 

names of ammo it uses does not show anywhere

models are only visual purposes

animations are more eye candy visual purposes

the numbers is what makes things happen, THINK OF THE NUMBERS!!!!

[Enduar]

I'm harassing you about it because it really is just that ridiculous to me. If calling it "laser ammo" is as insubstantial to it's role and function as you say it is, then fine. Honestly if you're going to stop telling us progress due to criticism it's your choice, and I would honestly say it's nothing those of us who've been following Reborn for the last couple of years aren't used to.

 

If the least we have to complain about is, as you say, only a name, then maybe you should pay attention to the rest of the posts. It's easy only to notice the bad, but we've all been pretty happy with what we see so far, and we all care about what's posted here or we wouldn't be posting.

 

I shouldn't have to say this, though, but part of creating anything is having a reaction to it. And you know? If you want to just make a game for only yourself to see, that's up to you, but as far as I know we're all here together for this.

 

Don't take this all so negatively. If we were upset with the direction of Reborn it would be a lot more obvious than this. You see more bad than good because there's nothing to argue about for the good stuff, and predictably there's differing opinions about the stuff that is bad.

[madrox8]

but worrying about a name that you will only see in the data aspect of the game and not in the acual game, how is this important at all?

[Guest APB_ICE]

I'm just going to refer to it as 'incendiary ammo', since that's the only thing that it could really be, in every way.

 

As for the effect, why not use a toned-down version of APB's 'Dragon's Breath' shot? That would look awesome and make the projectile clearly an incendiary bullet (or at least not a laser), and then this little argument can be put to rest.

 

I'm harassing you about it because it really is just that ridiculous to me. If calling it "laser ammo" is as insubstantial to it's role and function as you say it is, then fine. Honestly if you're going to stop telling us progress due to criticism it's your choice, and I would honestly say it's nothing those of us who've been following Reborn for the last couple of years aren't used to.

 

If the least we have to complain about is, as you say, only a name, then maybe you should pay attention to the rest of the posts. It's easy only to notice the bad, but we've all been pretty happy with what we see so far, and we all care about what's posted here or we wouldn't be posting.

 

I shouldn't have to say this, though, but part of creating anything is having a reaction to it. And you know? If you want to just make a game for only yourself to see, that's up to you, but as far as I know we're all here together for this.

 

Don't take this all so negatively. If we were upset with the direction of Reborn it would be a lot more obvious than this. You see more bad than good because there's nothing to argue about for the good stuff, and predictably there's differing opinions about the stuff that is bad.

Enduar has a point.

Edited November 16, 2011 by APB_ICE

[Guest Generalcamo]

The civilian armory would only promote units to veteran, and it should be out of the way of the enemy base.

 

 

What about vehicles?

[Guest namechanged]

Why not give her C4, like she had in TS, for her elite upgrade, in addition to health regen?

Umagon did not have C4, Ghostalker is the one unit that does.

[Guest r315r4z0r]

Why don't we just call it a "Blaster" or "Photon" or "Plasma Burst/Charge" projectile or something like that? The fact of the matter is that it's a glowing blast of light coming from Umagon's rifle that isn't an instant hit-scan. What it is called really shouldn't matter at this point in time... it's how it is intended to act in game.

 

Let the guy shape the gameplay and create elements before you start nitpicking them...

Edited November 16, 2011 by r315r4z0r

[Enduar]

By my experience "waiting to see" is just another reason for it to lay stagnant and wrong just because the work's already been put into it. Especially so for a mod that is purely free-time.

 

Lack of protest can easily be mistaken for silent endorsement.

[Wallywood]

Why don't we just call it a "Blaster" or "Photon" or "Plasma Burst/Charge" projectile or something like that? The fact of the matter is that it's a glowing blast of light coming from Umagon's rifle that isn't an instant hit-scan. What it is called really shouldn't matter at this point in time... it's how it is intended to act in game.

 

Let the guy shape the gameplay and create elements before you start nitpicking them...

Thank you ...... R315r4z0r is doing things the right way. He asks questions, waits for a answer and then gives helpfully advice. There is a difference between criticism and just nit picking and pointless bitching.

 

Enduar and ICE knock it off or you'll ruin it for everyone. I have a thousand other things to worry about right now then to worry about such petty things. Both of you don't think out your ideas before you reply.

 

Example: Enduar: How about a tech building that you could capture to give you insta rank

Me: That would be way too over powered

Enduar: Well how about a tech building that would grant you Vet. status for a cost.

 

Now why would you want to go capture a building for a Vet status that you will already be able to buy in your own base. Now you may say "well this way you could just buy your ranking instead of having to earn it." Well wouldn't that take away the fun of earning the rank?

[Enduar]

It's an accelerant for larger maps. Maps that traditionally play slower. Maps in particular that usually have less infantry combat. The veterency structure would serve to reveal the gameplay of the ranking system that would otherwise be invisible on maps where infantry combat and gaining rank would be too rare to achieve veteran status through normal means.

 

And since you seem to get confused about my posts for some reason I'll state the idea clearly in a single post to stop it.

 

This idea is suggested for larger maps as a way to stimulate infantry combat and buffer the rank system for infantry, making it easier in a scenario where presumably rank would be harder to obtain due to combat being slowed down significantly. It would also serve to help alleviate turtling by teams by providing a capturable advantage in the field, requiring people to actually leave the base to capture/defend it, or willingly afford an advantage to the other team- something that is currently only achieved by the vulnerability of a harvester in the Tiberium Field, assuming the field is outside of the base's defensive capabilities.

 

The veterancy structure would likely be an invincible structure captured through hacking that allows players to pay for veterancy. It would be able to pass to either team should it be hacked again, allowing it to be conquered repeatedly during a single match.

 

The cost would vary between different units, being much less for cheaper units, and much more for higher cost units. Never did I mention that it would instantly rank you to elite, but rather implied that paying for rank would just incrementally increase you to the next level.

 

Also, as far as I know, you are unable to buy rank in your own base UNLESS you have attained rank with that unit before hand and are re-purchasing it after death. The veterancy structure is unrelated to that.

 

Maps where infantry combat is not lacking, or where turtling is not an issue would likely not require an "aggression stimulant" like the veterancy structure, and as such the balance issues involved with them do not apply as mappers wouldn't want to include it on those particular maps anyways, unless for a specific reason.

 

I think the issue here is not that I don't think out my replies, but that you don't understand them, or don't grasp the full picture- something that again, I suppose, might be a lack of clarity on my behalf that I'll continue to try and fix.

 

The veterency structure isn't even necessarily something that is related to core design, but might instead simply just be an option to consider while the ranking code is placed incase the team or mappers ever wishes to install any means of external manipulation of the ranking system. This would include modifiers to make gaining rank quicker through certain achievements (such as completing an objective on an objective-based COOP map) or other things.

 

The laser discussion is simply a breach of lore and the laws of physics that irks me, especially when such a more reasonable alternative is available- that is all.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Enduar

[Guest r315r4z0r]

By my experience "waiting to see" is just another reason for it to lay stagnant and wrong just because the work's already been put into it. Especially so for a mod that is purely free-time.

 

Lack of protest can easily be mistaken for silent endorsement.

I understand that and I would normally agree. But think about what it is exactly you're nit picking here. It's the name of a weapon. It's text. I don't think it's going to be a big problem to change it if they later decide to do that. That's why I'm saying it isn't worth the effort of making a big debate about it.

[madrox8]

thing is there no need be of a building to grant vet as you get vet by killing things witht he unit you are, if you die and have unlocked that veterency level of that unit you have the option to spend a little more to spawn with that veterency if you unlocked it dureing that battle by killing things

[Enduar]

I suppose that is a question for Wally I could ask- If you pay to retain rank after dying, do you only keep the full rank you've achieved, or does it save ALL PROGRESS towards rank?

 

Also, it isn't even the name of the weapon, it's the name of an upgrade of a weapon. But that's not necessarily the point.

 

The name speaks of the intent, and the fact is ever since I pointed it out I've been opposed. In that sense it's been made pretty apparent that breaking lore, making nonsensical breaches of the laws of physics, and the like isn't really a high priority, or perhaps I'm simply being opposed because it's me pointing it out and they didn't notice it themselves.

 

Unless of course the general consensus is that giving GDI laser weaponry is a good idea. Or that having nonsensical Starwars-esque lasers in Reborn makes sense, even though every other laser weapon acts like a real laser would, for the most part.

 

So do you see why I might continue to get defensive in light of the sort of reaction I've seen to even mentioning it?

 

Such opposition could only mean that it was either more than a name of a weapon, or simply that me alone suggesting something isn't wanted here.

 

More and more I feel like this move to BHP has planted me in hostile waters, where my presence and my opinion is not only unappreciated, but reviled simply because it challenges authority by making suggestions to their plan.

 

Even for things as frivolous and stupid as this. I can't imagine the backlash I'd get when it comes to anything major.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Enduar

[madrox8]

well this was a big misunderstanding on the whole arguement

 

we all thought your just nitpicking at the string of the weopon that you use to plug in the values (you never see the name of that as there is a seperate value to give the weopon a name)

 

and for the rank from what iv read, if you reach full promotion with say a disk thrower, you can pay 2X the value to buy a fully promoted disk thrower but cannot buy fully promoted units with the others. if you fully promote a wolverine later then you can pay 2X for the wolverine AND pay 2X for the fully promoted disk, and as such if you want you can pay 1.5X for the rank in between full and starting, your choice if you reach that goal for the unit on that round.

 

i hope that clears things a bit :/

[Raptor29aa]

Ok after reading, comtemplating, and listing the pros and cons I can say this...

 

Neutral Vet tech building... not included in release at all (too many variables)

Will it be included in a fan map... maybe

Will it be included in a dev. map in another version down the line... maybe

 

Rational... Getting all the units, weapons, balance data, testing, vet sys, tech lvl, and map balancing is priority one. Thus Wallywood in the best interest of time will most likely reject the idea (do not take offense). He is seeing things from a developer stand point... aka if it isn't vital to initial release, game balance or visual aesthic... it's a "back burner project." After the vehicle release he might be more inclined to play with the idea...but as for now... no (please do not take it personally, he is just trying to keep the project to gameplay mechanics.

 

As for the auto marksmen (sorry I used sniper)... or whatever classification I should call it. The word "laser" did conjure up many false ideas. I will not comment on the name at this time. The damage is burn... great. And tanks can get hurt too... excellent. And that's all I need to know. Although I am partial to the name ion ammo (since GDI has an ion cannon in space) photon is good too.

[Wallywood]

Thank you guys that understand.

 

As for the auto marksmen (sorry I used sniper)... or whatever classification I should call it. The word "laser" did conjure up many false ideas. I will not comment on the name at this time. The damage is burn... great. And tanks can get hurt too... excellent. And that's all I need to know. Although I am partial to the name ion ammo (since GDI has an ion cannon in space) photon is good too.

Also I really like that name as well, you may have just named the ammo

[Guest Generalcamo]

Seriously guys, it is just a name! Why don't we call the ammo pretty blue thing that kills you, and if you are not killed, burns you? It is the SAME THING. Why don't we call the Tiberium Uzi a thing that shoots little blue shards of a compound known as tiberium, huh?