ts Dev.Blog 4 - Above the Ranks (11/14/2011)

[Wallywood]

Umagon will now get an upgrade to "Ion Ammo" ...now do I get 6 more pages of pointless bitching? Tune in next week to see this pointless name crap continues.

[Guest APB_ICE]

[Man-portable lasers and railguns are fine in Reborn, because they (the latter at least) existed in Tiberian Sun, and they're also somewhat plausible.

 

so by your logic, they shouldnt be in tiberian sun because in tiberian dawn there was no lasers or space suits for infantry, or mechanical walkers (in gameplay)

Tiberian Dawn and Tiberian Sun are 35 years apart. What point are you trying to make? :emot-raise:

 

Also, Nod had Obelisk lasers and prototype laser fences during the First Tiberium War.

 

Plus, Tib' Sun infantry uniforms aren't "space-suits"; They're basically body-armour combat-suits with high-tech' gas-masks.

 

Umagon will now get an upgrade to "Ion Ammo" ...now do I get 6 more pages of pointless bitching? Tune in next week to see this pointless name crap continue.

:emot-v: :emot-golfclap: :emot-words:

Edited November 17, 2011 by APB_ICE

[Enduar]

I've said enough, and I'd just be repeating myself to explain my views on this again when the reasons and evidence for my point is in plain sight.

 

Meanwhile, 6 pages of pointless bitching and the Wally has spoken. Now we have a blue laser, instead of whatever color it was going to be before.

 

So Shall It Be Writ, Until Next Blarg.

[Bfranx]

New idea: chicken testicle launcher :laugh2:

[Guest r315r4z0r]

It be cool if the shots had like a shimmering blue trail behind them. Similar to how the Ghost Stalker has that glowing ring effect for its projectile.

[Guest APB_ICE]

It be cool if the shots had like a shimmering blue trail behind them. Similar to how the Ghost Stalker has that glowing ring effect for its projectile.

I'd still prefer a toned-down version of APB's Dragon's Breath shot, since that clearly looks like some sort of incendiary bullet. Plus, it looks awesome.

[Enduar]

Didn't we have a pretty big discussion on the railguns for the MKII and the Ghost stalker not being hitscan on the old forums? I seem to remember something like that.

[Guest r315r4z0r]

They aren't I think. I remember having to lead the shots to hit stuff. It is particularly annoying with the MKII since it has no horizontal turret rotation.

[Enduar]

Right, I know they aren't. The MKII was hard to hit with, to begin with, considering the sheer width of the vehicle making the space between each rail easily wider than every Nod vehicle and some of their structures, even, haha. Anyway, I think there was a similarly long debate about that particular weapon as well for similar reasons (According to game lore the railguns are just about as hitscan as the lasers), which is the point I'm trying to make. Debates like this have happened, and will happen again at some point I'm sure.

 

 

I wonder if one of the "buffs" the commando units will get might make the railguns hitscan (God knows the MKII needs it, and since the Ghost Stalker doesn't have a scope so I don't think it would be too unreasonable in combat).

 

 

Edit: By the way, someone asked earlier if vehicles might fall under the ranking system, or if it's just infantry. Would that even be viable? (It was in TS, after all).

 

Imagining a commando reach elite is just an abomination of the battlefield, but an elite MKII would just be nightmare fuel.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Enduar

[madrox8]

thing with hit scan is if the weapon has no charge up time to fire they make the woapon EXTREAMLY op, in APB beta the shock trooper was broken so much cus of it, and i cant really talk about AR but wally knows exacolly what im talking about as i gave him many wtf moments

[Guest Retaliation]

How exactly does hitscan make weapons op? Afterall pistols are hitscan yet not op. So there has to be more too it than simply being hitscan.

[Enduar]

I vaguely remember shock troopers being a nuisance, but mostly it was snipers (that was a lovely short thread, right?) that I had an issue with I think. Shock Trooper of course had that little issue where it's an anti-everything sort of unit, which I guess would carry over to the ghost stalker.

 

I think providing a pretty slow reload time on the GS railgun combined with limited range in the first place might be sufficient, but who knows. The shocky actually fired in pretty quick succession. Ghost Stalker had a pretty damn slow reload time in the RTS after all, and I don't know if the drawback of hitscan would be quite as acute if it's just the one unit (even if that unit is a commando).

 

Also, just a heads up, the pistols in Reborn were pretty ridiculously good. I distinctly remember that nobody much used the Chameleon Spy's knife simply because pistols would 2-shot kill anything if you got the headshot, I think. That of course may have been changed (and maybe it needed to be, but it was kind of fun).

 

Edit: Also, hitscan is usually seen as OP because there's certain people with mutant-reflexes that can pop headshot with a weapon like they've been doing it since they're 2 years old. Personally I like a little random element when it comes to shooting guns in games, but with weapons like lasers and railguns it just seems right to have it travel instantly. Problem is, though hitscan is the "Fastest" (instant) projectile you can get, there's no way to program accuracy deviation with it, I'm pretty sure. So there's no real middle ground, if you chose to have a "ridiculously fast moving projectile" it has to be 100% accurate, or as mentioned in that sniper thread I think the maximum projectile speed in W3D is 400~ meters per second.

 

To give a reference of scale, modern sniper rifles have up to 800-900m/s muzzle velocity.

Scale that up to the modern-day railgun the navy is working on (of which the weapon apparatus is the size of the bus- I'm not even sure how big the array of capacitors that power it is) and it shoots up to 5800m/s and moves with enough energy that it turns the air molecules it hits into a trail of plasma.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Enduar

[Guest Retaliation]

You can have weapons with hitscan projectiles that are not perfectly accurate. The soviet sniper was an excellent example of this. I'm also aware of the people who are capable of extreme accuracy with headshots. I just don't think it matters that they are able to do that because they can do that with or without hitscan weapons. It just doesn't seem right for high damage slow fire rate weapons to have anything short of instant travel time. Especially since its harder to compensate for aiming issues compared to higher rate of fire weapons.

[Guest r315r4z0r]

Hitscan weapons themselves aren't the problem. It's when you can click on someone's head from across the map and get a kill from it where the problem comes in. Hitscan weapons aren't a problem if they are limited to a reasonably set range.

[Enduar]

Hm. Alright, and what about maybe giving the Cyborg Commando the ability to track targets with his plasma ball, like he did in the RTS? I'm fairly certain that was discussed as well on the old forums. Now that these guys are getting a buff it would be reasonable to revisit how they play, since both of these would make them more dangerous in a way that simply isn't a damage/armor buff. I'm actually really happy to see the Flamethrower unlock for the CC (Though I'm kind of afraid to see him fire both the plasma ball and flamethrower at the same time like when we saw it).

[Guest Generalcamo]

I was going to suggest: allow the mammoth mk II to have a limited 45 degree angle on both sides weapons turn.

[Guest APB_ICE]

The Mammoth Mk. II should have hit-scan railguns and a 15-degree horizontal traverse, along with a brief charge-up like APB Gamma's Tesla Tank.

Ghost Stalker should have a hit-scan railgun with a brief charge-up, like APB Gamma's Shock Trooper, and maybe a very slight inaccuracy.

Edited November 17, 2011 by APB_ICE

[Guest r315r4z0r]

Giving the MKII horizontal turret rotation isn't as easy as you think it is. In fact, it might not even be possible in the engine... that is with the current design of the vehicle and all.

[Raptor29aa]

Here's the thing about the MKII... it's meant to be a base killer. It's two huge guns aren't meant to track and vaporize tanks.

It has a turret to prevent hijackers and infantry, and sams to prevent aircraft from pwning it. The main weaknesses are to be from tanks. Thus teamwork in protecting the MKII should be a lot of anti-tank measures (since its an easy for tick tanks to hit a moving house).

 

As for people worrying about an elite MKII... it would take a long time and a lot of kills to lvl it up. Not to mention it can't really run back to base and get repaired like the hover mrls or wolverines can. It's sort of a one trick pony.

 

Lastly as for hitscan MKII railguns... it shoots massive blue balls of death with splash... I think it's scary enough.

[Bfranx]

New idea: chicken testicle launcher :laugh2:

 

i guess my comic relief was a bust

[Enduar]

Hitscan wouldn't make the MKII too overpowered considering how slowly it turns to begin with. Most of Nod's vehicles are fast enough to out-turn it, so you're usually only picked apart slowly by the machine gun. Also, it's been a while so I don't really remember, but did the MKII self-repair like it's supposed to? If that's the case, returning to base isn't really an issue when you can just hold position for a while after you wipe the floor clean of enemies.

 

The teamwork required in order to front a successful MKII rush (can you really even call it a rush, considering how slow it is? ) more so involves protecting its weak flanks. A single stealth tank getting around and attacking from behind is enough to take one down simply because you'd never be able to turn fast enough to kill it. Infact, you're usually better off in that case just continuing on your merry way to fuck up the enemy base as much as you can until your (enormous amount of) health gets whittled down.

 

I'm honestly curious to see how balancing plays out, since Nod has no real equivalent to the MKII- equality and similar roles being something that definitely shows in the infantry line up so far.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Enduar

[Guest MartinMb]

A Rail Gun is like the fastest projectile firing weapon in existance, it is meant to be hitscan. It was in Tiberian Sun anyway, even if there was a weird bug with the firing angle (when firing up or down a hill, Ghoststalker sometime made no damage).

[Guest namechanged]

A Rail Gun is like the fastest projectile firing weapon in existance, it is meant to be hitscan. It was in Tiberian Sun anyway, even if there was a weird bug with the firing angle (when firing up or down a hill, Ghoststalker sometime made no damage).

That's - I think - from the quasi-3D trying to get terrain blocking right.

[Raptor29aa]

@Enduar: For once I agree... hitscan would be ok for the MKII. I mean it's not like hitscan makes it turn faster, lol. Also to answer your question nod has a few mammoth killing tactics. 1: Mobile Stealth Gen (a deploy for instant invisible bubble, and hope GDI won't bump into you). MSG + Mobile Repair Vehicle = Fun. 2: Burrowing ambushes... Flames!!!!!! :emot-dance: 3: If you can manage not getting shot by the under turret (surface in a blind spot) have a couple people jump out with C4... boom... nice dent in health (good ol' engi rush).

 

@MartinMb As far as real life, I can't argue with the logic. Although if I were to guess I'd say ion interference makes it non-hitscan... yet I know it's too fast to be messed with by an EM field.

As far as gameplay I think there is a fear of a tanya-like hitscan. (I know the response, give him a charge up). My last experience with testing for the previous team the projectile was wide and the shot was fast, but not hitscan (speed more like Medium Tank fast). One thing to keep in mind about Ghostalker is that he fares will against tanks.

My final thoughts, Ghostalker is one mean mother, he's got C4 for buildings, A railgun for tanks or inf, he's fast, and Tiberium heals him. I'd rather not say anymore than I'll leave projectile velocity to Wallywood's digression.

[Enduar]

Judging by the fact that he mentioned somewhere earlier that both commando units would be getting buffed, even from the point where we saw them testing (I assume), I would imagine they are intended to be pretty damn powerful. But just remember you'll only see one and both will likely be pretty damned expensive. While "Buff" usually just means higher damage or more health/resistances, I think buffing the way they fight (hitscan for GS and a tracking projectile for the CC) might be more interesting, and atleast make playing as them more fun. If you're spending a few thousand credits on an infantry class, you'd hope it would be worth the investment.

[Guest r315r4z0r]

Personally, from playing in the old beta, the Mammoth was incredibly underpowered. The thing needed a range boost, power boost, splash boost and a tweak to give it the ability to walk up an inclined plain without crapping on itself.

 

For a vehicle that is incredibly slow and vulnerable, could only aim by moving its body left and right, and could only be on the field one at a time, it's weapons should be incredibly powerful. Way more so than it already was.

Edited November 18, 2011 by r315r4z0r

[Raptor29aa]

After much thought I have changed my opinion on hitscan (I occasionally play the old beta). The GS would be great with hitscan as long as the range is kept short and extra damage for headshot is turned off. As for the CC I am fine with tracking as long as headshots do not equal extra damage. (My rational is APB had a little RS headshot problem long ago with the Redeye wouldn't want a repeat).

 

As for the MKII as I stated above I am open to the hitscan for it. What I really think it needed was more splash. I know it has an AI turret to shoot infantry, but I'd like the satisfaction of killing infantry as well. Not to mention it's cannons are the size of tanks.

@r315r4z0r My biggest upset with the MKII was when the Sams on top killed a helicopter and the pilot decided to drop all kinds of explosives on top. (Only later did I learn that turning left and right repeatedly can throw him off), LOL.

[Guest r315r4z0r]

You can't disable or nerf the damage done with a headshot. All damage is proportional with the weapon and the body part that is hit. If you want to nerf the damage a weapon does when it hits a head, then you have to nerf the damage of the weapon completely which would also make it weaker when it hits other parts of the body as well.

[Guest Pushwall]

Wouldn't it be possible if the projectile itself deals a negligible amount of direct damage, but has a lot of splash damage with a VERY small radius, and with a warhead that the Ghost Stalker is heavily resistant/immune to?

[Enduar]

Lol. That's quite a workaround.