ts Dev.Blog 4 - Above the Ranks (11/14/2011)

[Guest rs4015]

loving the rank system, i just hope i can keep my rank achievements throughout the day and not lose them if i accidentally disconnect

[Wallywood]

loving the rank system, i just hope i can keep my rank achievements throughout the day and not lose them if i accidentally disconnect

They will reset every new map.

[Guest APB_ICE]

Fine. I'll stop with the ammo argument, even though having a bullet-shooting rifle magically turn into a somehow-non-hitscan beam weapon makes absolutely no sense and breaks both the game lore and the laws of physics, and despite the fact that there are infinitely more logical alternatives (Incendiary ammo. Hell, even Ramjet ammo would make a lot more sense than any kind of beam weapon.). Plus, I just think that a toned-down Dragon's Breath effect would look far cooler for the weapon than any sort of beam effect.

 

Now, for the Armoury. I see their point for not including it, but we could at least have a destroyed version (modelled after TS's Armoury damage-sprite). It would make for some awesome eye-candy. :emot-dance:

Edited November 16, 2011 by APB_ICE

[Enduar]

I think we can pretty much drop the armory idea. I never figured they'd create a building asset just because I mentioned it, but I would like them to bear that sort of thing in mind when designing the code, so that if someone DID want to introduce external conditions to gain rank (like the armory) it would be possible without rewriting too much code. There's a lot of other useful things that sort of option being available could lend to, as well.

[Guest MartinMb]

Nice promotion ideas (especially the techies/engineers becoming splash resistant) ! Also, well imagined for the interior of TS style houses !

[madrox8]

ICE i garentee you some of the "ammo" names for APB are not what you think, but you will never know this

[Guest APB_ICE]

DISCLAIMER:

The above mentioned ideas, suggestions, and comments are not demands. They are in no way intended to do anything more than stimulate a creative environment for the developers and fans to use at their whim, and as such may be ignored if necessary. Many of my ideas are speculative- things to bear in mind while developing the game as options for the future, be it the developers themselves, or fans who may want to use them. As such they are rarely intended to suggest a priority over the current development focuses. I post not out of selfishness to push my own agenda and promote a play-style or game mechanic that suits my own desires, but instead out of a desire to help cure fundamental conflicts in gameplay and design in accordance with the intended end-result of the mod.

Lol, that's awesome. :emot-v:

 

ICE i guarantee you some of the "ammo" names for APB are not what you think, but you will never know this

I don't even care about the unseen name, I just don't want the projectile to look like a laser/particle/whatever beam, hence my Dragon's Breath suggestion.

Edited November 16, 2011 by APB_ICE

[Enduar]

Thanks. I figured it's necessary considering the posts I've been catching heat for.

 

At any rate, maybe we can look back on this and laugh. Laugh for the same reasons we laughed at Renegade for having a laser minigun that had recoil, among other silly weapon designs that were probably just implemented because they were "cool".

Edited November 16, 2011 by Enduar

[madrox8]

I don't even care about the unseen name, I just don't want the projectile to look like a laser/particle/whatever beam, hence my Dragon's Breath suggestion.

 

the very thing you are argueing about mostly is in fact the unseen name, i dunno how many times wally has said this and myself, no where in game will you see the name of the ammo unless your modifying the data for it

[Raptor29aa]

the very thing you are argueing about mostly is in fact the unseen name, i dunno how many times wally has said this and myself, no where in game will you see the name of the ammo unless your modifying the data for it

 

I know the name won't matter, but what if there is a game manual and it states what happens to Umagon when she ranks up? Won't a name be used then? Other than that you are correct.

[Enduar]

I think the context and meaning for the argument has been entirely missed, or diverted intentionally to retarded naming semantics. The point is here, at least for me and ICE who have been the ones arguing it for the most part is that:

 

The mechanical design of a ballistic weapon is nothing even remotely comparable or related to a complicated laser or ion weapon. It's like saying a Toaster could be easily modified to make coffee. Get it, now?

 

All Wally has done is assure us that the name is meaningless, but stated that the design and function of the weapon will remain the same (meaning it will remain, visibly, as a slow moving, physics defying laser that burns shit). The name is meaningless, the intent of the weapon is clear. Name it an ionpixieantimattershitrifle and it's still going to be a toaster blending coffee, in my eyes, and just about as comical.

 

I am honestly astounded with the level of reading comprehension I'm witnessing here- There's either deliberate work here to obfuscate some very simple, rational arguments or due to some cosmic design of luck people are missing the seriously overstated, repeated points that are made in these posts.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Enduar

[madrox8]

I know the name won't matter, but what if there is a game manual and it states what happens to Umagon when she ranks up? Won't a name be used then? Other than that you are correct.

 

as for all i know about basic programming, for when you set a rank up situation you just code the name of the weopon, increase X amount of values, then call a text msg to inform "you got promoted"

 

so in a sence, on promotion, the coder can just type what ever he wants for a promotion msg.

[Wallywood]

All Wally has done is assure us that the name is meaningless, but stated that the design and function of the weapon will remain the same (meaning it will remain, visibly, as a slow moving, physics defying laser that burns shit). The name is meaningless, the intent of the weapon is clear. Name it an ionpixieantimattershitrifle and it's still going to be a toaster blending coffee, in my eyes, and just about as comical.

 

So you have a problem with her getting an ammo that burns on contact is what your saying? Your either mad about the name or your mad about the function. We tell you that the name means dick and then you switch your argument to the function.

 

Now as for your complaint, if you think your being targeted because your from Reborn or because of some other short of reason.Then your wrong, R34 came in, asked questions, waited for an answer and then gives an opinion based on the info he is given and then accepts the answer, he is also from Reborn and no one is jumping on his back at all. You, on the other hand, come in suggest ideas, when you told it doesn't work well with our game play set up, you then try every angle to make us change our mind. When that still doesn't work you then throw the "Why does everyone hate me !? Is it because I'm from Reborn? or because you guys just don't like me!" into play and add in the fact that you change your argument whenever the point goes belly up. Then you wonder why your getting negative feedback. Well sir, the difference here is others here come in with business man sense, where you have come in looking like a used car sells man. Hint of advice, if you keep it up your basically going to just become another APB_ICE and the out come of that means a lot of your posts are just going to go ignored or you'll REALLY become target. Just the fact your already trying to justify yourself in your sig. means your already on the way.

[Guest APB_ICE]

All Wally has done is assure us that the name is meaningless, but stated that the design and function of the weapon will remain the same (meaning it will remain, visibly, as a slow moving, physics defying laser that burns shit). The name is meaningless, the intent of the weapon is clear. Name it an ionpixieantimattershitrifle and it's still going to be a toaster blending coffee, in my eyes, and just about as comical.

 

So you have a problem with her getting an ammo that burns on contact is what your saying? Your either mad about the name or your mad about the function. We tell you that the name means dick and then you switch your argument to the function.

Look, we have absolutely no problem with her getting burning ammo. It's a good upgrade. It's awesome. However, what we do have a problem with is your persistent intention to depict it as "laser ammo" (despite incendiary ammo being the logically obvious choice) and, therefore, go completely against the laws of physics, C&C lore, and common sense.

 

Look, I am trying really hard to contain my nitpickiness, but this just makes no sense at all to me. Why name/portray it as a laser? Why give it a beam effect to make it look like a laser? Why not just call it 'incendiary ammo', or at least give it an effect to make it look like incendiary ammo (Ex. APB's DB shot)?

 

I really don't want to give you a hard time about this, but I'm having serious difficulty trying to understand your reasoning here.

Edited November 16, 2011 by APB_ICE

[madrox8]

thing is ICE, there is 2 types of logics you need to think of, you only think of real life logic, and to video games, means nothing, for art and real life opertunities thats where that logic is important. then there is programming logic / gameing logic, gthis kind of logic anything can happen weather it makes sence for real life logic or not

 

on the APB LOL map, how does it make sence an ore truck can fly and shoot rockets? it dosent, but in a programming sence, it makes perfect sence and thus why it can happen.

 

the point that wally and myself are trying to make it dosent matter what the ammo is called for these reasons

1) as stated hundreads of times, you will not even see what the munition is called on the weopon you are useing

2) the ammo name is just a value title for programming

3) it is a sci fi game, how does it make scence a walking unit can be more effective then a tracked vehical

[Enduar]

Yeah, no. Sorry Wally, but I don't think I'm being targeted for being from Reborn at all, but rather that there's just a mindset here that clashes with my kind of personality.

 

Also, there's something that should be cleared up- An argument takes place when two sides debate a point, and the only clear point you've made so far is "I said it, so it will be so- God has spoken". You haven't actually committed any real discussion, and what replies you have made to me either grossly misunderstand posts that I have stated very clearly, or making it clear that the reason it is the way it is is because you're in charge. If necessary I can make quotes for further proof. Otherwise, what discussion there has been has been between the rest of us.

 

As for this lovely semantics debate the argument has boiled down to, whether it's about a name or function (as though those are the only two options) I'll simply repeat again:

• Giving GDI a laser weapon, something that is purely indicative of the Nod faction, is lore breaching and nonsensical.
  

• Making a ballistic rifle, a mechanical device that ignites powder to fire a projectile, into a weapon that now somehow (magically) converts energy from an non-existent power source into a weapons-grade military laser via complicated focusing apparatus in something as small as a rifle that also then defies the physical constant of the speed of light is nonsensical. An Ion Cannon downsized to rifle form is equally ridiculous and has many of the same breaches of fundamental physics and reality as we know it.
  

 

Is it clear yet what we're arguing about? Or is this going to turn into a discussion of the intricacies of the English language and its history so the topic can be further derailed into meaningless squabbles that only serve to inflame relations.

 

We've already noted a simple, aesthetically pleasing, lore supporting alternative that does exactly what you want the upgrade to do anyways, which is to burn shit/damage over time, which is the incendiary ammunition upgrade. Which in all honestly seems like such an obvious choice that I'm honestly flipping my shit over here trying to figure out what the hell is so important about making it a laser that has drawn this out so far.

[madrox8]

i give up, from now on any turret weopon for me will be called lasers, and sniper rifles will now be nukes

[Guest Retaliation]

It has less to do with logic and more to do with plausibility. Walkers are impractical the way they are in TS, but because they're awesome we let that slide. For people who have problems with suspension of disbelief like ice it seems however, stuff like lasers not being hitscan can be fairly annoying I imagine. So when ice/enduar say they dislike the idea of non-hitscan laser ammo they're actually probably talking about the appearance in game rather than the name of the ammo.

[Enduar]

Even if the game breaches reality with it's own little twists of physics, here, we'd still be following the physics as determined by what we see in the game itself regardless.

 

Seriously, if this argument simply boils down to the fact that you want to do things your way and you don't care about what anyone else says, or what the games were like, then just say it.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Enduar

[Guest APB_ICE]

It has less to do with logic and more to do with plausibility. Walkers are impractical the way they are in TS, but because they're awesome we let that slide. For people who have problems with suspension of disbelief like ice it seems however, stuff like lasers not being hitscan can be fairly annoying I imagine. So when ice/enduar say they dislike the idea of non-hitscan laser ammo they're actually probably talking about the appearance in game rather than the name of the ammo.

Mech-walkers may be impractical in just about every way, but at least they're plausible. With adequate power sources, motor-systems, computer controls, sensors, balancing systems, etc. It could work in real life.

 

And yes, I'm more concerned with the visual depiction of the burning ammo. If the name can't be seen, I couldn't care less about what it's called. How it's portrayed in the game is what's important. A beam-effect of any kind will make it look obviously laser-like, and this is where the problem arises. An effect similar to APB's Dragon's Breath shot would make it look obviously like some sort of incendiary round, and there would be no problems.

 

As Enduar and I have repeatedly pointed out:

 

So you have a problem with her getting an ammo that burns on contact is what your saying? Your either mad about the name or your mad about the function. We tell you that the name means dick and then you switch your argument to the function.

Look, we have absolutely no problem with her getting burning ammo. It's a good upgrade. It's awesome. However, what we do have a problem with is your persistent intention to depict it as "laser ammo" (despite incendiary ammo being the logically obvious choice) and, therefore, go completely against the laws of physics, C&C lore, and common sense.

 

Look, I am trying really hard to contain my nitpickiness, but this just makes no sense at all to me. Why name/portray it as a laser? Why give it a beam effect to make it look like a laser? Why not just call it 'incendiary ammo', or at least give it an effect to make it look like incendiary ammo (Ex. APB's DB shot)?

 

I really don't want to give you a hard time about this, but I'm having serious difficulty trying to understand your reasoning here.

 

As for this lovely semantics debate the argument has boiled down to, whether it's about a name or function (as though those are the only two options) I'll simply repeat again:

• Giving GDI a laser weapon, something that is purely indicative of the Nod faction, is lore breaching and nonsensical.
  

• Making a ballistic rifle, a mechanical device that ignites powder to fire a projectile, into a weapon that now somehow (magically) converts energy from an non-existent power source into a weapons-grade military laser via complicated focusing apparatus in something as small as a rifle that also then defies the physical constant of the speed of light is nonsensical. An Ion Cannon downsized to rifle form is equally ridiculous and has many of the same breaches of fundamental physics and reality as we know it.
  

Is it clear yet what we're arguing about? Or is this going to turn into a discussion of the intricacies of the English language and its history so the topic can be further derailed into meaningless squabbles that only serve to inflame relations.

 

We've already noted a simple, aesthetically pleasing, lore supporting alternative that does exactly what you want the upgrade to do anyways (to burn shit/damage over time), which is the incendiary ammunition upgrade. This, in all honestly, seems like such an obvious choice that I'm honestly flipping my shit over here trying to figure out what the hell is so important about making it a laser that has drawn this out so far.

Edited November 16, 2011 by APB_ICE

[Guest namechanged]

I still call the auto marksman a sniper because that's what it is. Essentially all man-portable laser or railgun weaponry doesn't make sense, but does that mean no video game should have them? No, because video games are not supposed to entirely make sense.

[Guest APB_ICE]

Essentially all man-portable laser or railgun weaponry doesn't make sense, but does that mean no video game should have them? No, because video games are not supposed to entirely make sense.

You seem to have completely missed the point.

 

Man-portable lasers and railguns are fine in Reborn, because they (the latter at least) existed in Tiberian Sun, and they're also somewhat plausible.

 

What isn't fine is a weapon being depicted as a laser, yet isn't 'hitscan' (Thus breaking the laws of physics and common sense), is being used by GDI (Who never uses weaponized lasers), and is being magically fired out of a ballistic rifle, despite the fact that we have offered an obvious and perfectly logical alternative (incendiary ammo), which does exactly what Wallywood wants the upgrade to do (cause burning damage), can be non-hitscan without breaking fundamental physics, doesn't contradict C&C lore, and would look awesome with the Dragon's Breath effect.

Edited November 16, 2011 by APB_ICE

[Guest r315r4z0r]

Enduar, there is no basis for you to be arguing about this. That's why you're catching flak. The thing isn't even made yet. It is still conceptual (as far as I know.)

 

The only thing you're caught up on is the name of some ammunition type. It isn't about lore or phyics or anything you seem to be thinking that this concept is breaching. It is just text on paper.

 

All Wally is doing is explaining the concept of the upgrade. He isn't carving in stone that it WILL be a laser and it WILL totally change the way the weapon works. It's just a rough idea of the direction they are planning to take when it comes to Umagon's veterancy upgrade.

 

If, when the upgrade is put in game and is shown off (or given to us in playable form) and the term "laser" is still applied to the weapon upgrade, then I think would be an appropriate time to voice your opinion on it. But doing it right now it isn't being helpful or constructive, it's just degrading the rest of the mod's progress.

 

You have to realize that no matter what you think it implies, all that what you're talking about ultimately ammounts to a simple word of text. It can be changed and suddenly everyone is happy again. He could just as easily say that Umagon will shoot popcorn from her gun and it still wouldn't make a difference. All that needs to be concerned about right now is the function of the new upgrade and that is be stronger and inflict burn damage. What it is called, at this point in time, has absolutely no meaning or value in it what so ever... so arguing about it is just a waste of your own time.

[Guest ma1kel]

Could you guys stop nitpicking over this ammo or "laser" or w/e is being nitpicked over? I don't care and it makes actually valid posts take longer to read.

[Enduar]

If it is meaningless, then there is no content to this blog and I stand corrected. We might as well be reading comics in the newspaper here, for all it counts for.

 

But the opposition, refusal to cooperate with reasonable debate, and word bending I've been witnessing here either speaks volumes about the immutable hubris at work here within the leadership I've witnessed, or that this change is important/intended/planned to be introduce as is regardless of community opinion just as seriously as any other of the changes in this blog. Especially judging by such conditions I would bet that debate once actual effort has gone into the design and implementation would be infinitely more futile than what I attempt here and now.

 

All I have said on the matter ends here. If Wally wishes to reply with reason (of which the motivations of his design still remain unsaid) then so be it, but there's nothing more for me to argue. Reason, respect, and empathy fall upon deaf ears here, where things seem to be more about a battle of will and assertion of authority, which I honestly care little for or I would have instead applied directly to the team rather than remain a simple part of the community.

 

There's some strange irrational fear of discussion, as though it were a sign of weakness, here.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Enduar

[Guest Retaliation]

I honestly think this whole laser debate is taking wally's words out of context. If you think about it hard lasers do make no sense as non hitscan projectiles. I think what wally meant was a super accurate projectile that lights things on fire. Laser was just a quicker way of saying incendiary round.

[Guest Nod00]

i actually support Enduar position here. GDI has bullets, explosives, ion cannons, and railguns. I dont see the need for GDI lasers and think it kind takes away from Nods iconic technologies which they have always been known for.

[Guest r315r4z0r]

Enduar, please. I know you're a smart person and you have proven that on many occasion. So why all this sensless drama?

 

What you're basically doing is comparable to complaining about Windows Vista because its development code name was "Longhorn." It's a sensless argument that will accomplish nothing.

 

GDI doesn't use lasers and you can't change a projectile firing rifle to a "laser" rifle so easily. I understand the logic here and I'm pretty sure most of the people in this thread, including Wally, do too. But what you're failing to see here is that it is JUST TEXT.

 

Text can be changed at any time. It can be changed now, tomorrow, a week from now, or even the day before the mod is released. It has no impact on anything else in the game. In fact, it has such little significance that you can actually change it yourself after the game is released and it won't even be considered cheating! That's how insignificant this is.

 

I mean, if Wally went ahead and said "We are going to remove GDI's Titan" then that's one thing. But all he did was mention the concept of an ammo type that isn't even finalized yet. So why is everyone going insane?

Edited November 17, 2011 by r315r4z0r

[madrox8]

[Man-portable lasers and railguns are fine in Reborn, because they (the latter at least) existed in Tiberian Sun, and they're also somewhat plausible.

 

so by your logic, they shouldnt be in tiberian sun because in tiberian dawn there was no lasers or space suits for infantry, or mechanical walkers (in gameplay)

[Bfranx]

Just make it railgun ammo, GDI had railguns(or lasers) just look at the MKII or the Ghost Stalker...