Games [GAME OVER] Cop Mafia II

[iLikeToSnipe]

Just now, ChopBam said:

Somebody lemme know if I got anything wrong here.

That looks good to me at first glance.

[OrangeP47]

1 minute ago, ChopBam said:

Somebody lemme know if I got anything wrong here.

General

Player	N0 Report	N1 Report	N2 Report	Sane	Insane	Naive	Paranoid
Voe	iLTS/Town	-	-
Killing_You	Chop/Town	Voe/Town	-
iLikeToSnipe	Voe/Mafia	Chop/Mafia	Orange/Town
ChopBam	KY/Mafia	Orange/Mafia	Chop/Mafia
OrangeP47	Voe/Town	KY/Town	iLTS/Town

iLTS Bad

Player	N0 Report	N1 Report	N2 Report	Sane	Insane	Naive	Paranoid
Voe	iLTS/Town	-	-
Killing_You	Chop/Town	Voe/Town	-
ChopBam	KY/Mafia	Orange/Mafia	Chop/Mafia
OrangeP47	Voe/Town	KY/Town	iLTS/Town
iLikeToSnipe	Voe/Mafia	Chop/Mafia	Orange/Town		Claim

Orange Bad

Player	N0 Report	N1 Report	N2 Report	Sane	Insane	Naive	Paranoid
Voe	iLTS/Town	-	-
Killing_You	Chop/Town	Voe/Town	-
iLikeToSnipe	Voe/Mafia	Chop/Mafia	Orange/Town
ChopBam	KY/Mafia	Orange/Mafia	Chop/Mafia
OrangeP47	Voe/Town	KY/Town	iLTS/Town			Claim

Correct I think, but most unfortunate.

[OrangeP47]

1 minute ago, OrangeP47 said:

Correct I think, but most unfortunate.

If Voe was insane and KY sane and KY was gonna cop either me or ILTS that could be why he was killed.

[OrangeP47]

IF KY was the sane cop and copped me there'd still be doubt that he'd be the naive cop and ILTS could have played that off, but what if KY copped ILTS? That'd blow things wide open. Would ILTS take that risk? ILTS would know Voe was insane and thus KY sane so he'd be worried about it.

[ChopBam]

7 minutes ago, OrangeP47 said:

If Voe was insane and KY sane and KY was gonna cop either me or ILTS that could be why he was killed.

That would have been an excellent reason to kill him. I'm trying to find motivation (from iLTS "town perspective") for you to have gone after KY last night. On the flipside, I am finding good motivations (from your "town perspective) for iLTS to have gone after Voe and then KY.

[ChopBam]

Just now, OrangeP47 said:

ILTS would know Voe was insane and thus KY sane so he'd be worried about it.

Hm, actually he still might not know whether the sanity was yours or KY's, but still likely not a risk to take.

[OrangeP47]

2 minutes ago, ChopBam said:

Hm, actually he still might not know whether the sanity was yours or KY's, but still likely not a risk to take.

Hmmm I guess we'd have to take a step back yeah, but at the same time if I copped him he'd probably just say I'm lying and that's less of a risk than if it was KY.

[ChopBam]

1 hour ago, iLikeToSnipe said:

@ChopBam

Might I suggest you go here and read a few posts?

That exchange doesn't stand out to me in either direction any more than it did when I first read it, and I'd say for the same reasons as when I first read it.

[ChopBam]

3 minutes ago, OrangeP47 said:

Hmmm I guess we'd have to take a step back yeah, but at the same time if I copped him he'd probably just say I'm lying and that's less of a risk than if it was KY.

Yeah exactly, but that'd be 50/50 on whether the sanity belonged to you or to KY, and another 50/50 on whether KY targeted iLTS or you (because if KY targeted you and got town, he could have been seen as a naive cop).

@iLikeToSnipe, do you have possible motivation for Orange to have gone after KY last night? The main thing I can think of is that KY was scum reading Orange yesterday and I was scum reading you, so the trajectory of D2 reads would give Orange a good chance. What say you?

[iLikeToSnipe]

If I'm scum, why would I actually be worried about KY investigating me when you take in all the facts and information?

• KY stated he thought Orange was mafia
• Either Voe or KY are the sane cop, so it's a 50/50 chance
• KY had only myself or Orange left to investigate

Knowing KY's meta, I would think that he would investigate the player he's actually suspicious of. So if I'm mafia why would I eliminate a player who is "on my side"? If I had killed ChopBam that would be the expected night kill and wouldn't put any suspicion on me. Then it'd be down to me and someone who was already leaning my way.

A KY kill for me as mafia would just be dumb. That would put me at a less than 50% chance of winning as mafia, which is worse than just gambling on a cop investigation.

[OrangeP47]

2 minutes ago, iLikeToSnipe said:

If I'm scum, why would I actually be worried about KY investigating me when you take in all the facts and information?

• KY stated he thought Orange was mafia
• Either Voe or KY are the sane cop, so it's a 50/50 chance
• KY had only myself or Orange left to investigate

Knowing KY's meta, I would think that he would investigate the player he's actually suspicious of. So if I'm mafia why would I eliminate a player who is "on my side"? If I had killed ChopBam that would be the expected night kill and wouldn't put any suspicion on me. Then it'd be down to me and someone who was already leaning my way.

A KY kill for me as mafia would just be dumb. That would put me at a less than 50% chance of winning as mafia, which is worse than just gambling on a cop investigation.

You ignore the fact that KY and I have a long standing buddy-buddy relationship, and if there's anyone I can charisma, it's him, whereas Chop and I are usually at each other's throats.

[iLikeToSnipe]

5 minutes ago, ChopBam said:

That exchange doesn't stand out to me in either direction any more than it did when I first read it, and I'd say for the same reasons as when I first read it.

It was more to point out that what Orange has been saying since last night is just false and a scum tell. I did not start out with attacking him and he opened up with being pretty hostile to me.

1 minute ago, ChopBam said:

Yeah exactly, but that'd be 50/50 on whether the sanity belonged to you or to KY, and another 50/50 on whether KY targeted iLTS or you (because if KY targeted you and got town, he could have been seen as a naive cop).

@iLikeToSnipe, do you have possible motivation for Orange to have gone after KY last night? The main thing I can think of is that KY was scum reading Orange yesterday and I was scum reading you, so the trajectory of D2 reads would give Orange a good chance. What say you?

Orange did have two options D2 for possibly pushing the lynch onto, myself and KY. Once you said you were suspicious of me, I think that made KY the better target for him. He had to go for either of us.

[ChopBam]

All of your reasonings, from both sides, seem pretty sound. KY's read on Orange, plus some of iLTS' reasoning, gives me pause on my iLTS scum read. So I may have to go back through the thread and hopefully not just WIFOM it but try to read between the lines as far as actions, reactions, and emotions.

This game right now:

[iLikeToSnipe]

2 minutes ago, OrangeP47 said:

You ignore the fact that KY and I have a long standing buddy-buddy relationship, and if there's anyone I can charisma, it's him, whereas Chop and I are usually at each other's throats.

And you conveniently skip over the fact that KY was in favor of a lynch of you today.

[OrangeP47]

Just now, iLikeToSnipe said:

And you conveniently skip over the fact that KY was in favor of a lynch of you today.

Nah, that was the starting point. Your arguments are like literally incoherent and continually misrepresent what I say, which is the biggest reason why I've had scummy vibes from you this entire time. Town-ILTS isn't this incompetent.

[ChopBam]

2 minutes ago, ChopBam said:

All of your reasonings ... some of iLTS' reasoning

Oh look I contradicted myself and people don't think I'm scum. Amazing. I could do this all day!

[OrangeP47]

Just now, OrangeP47 said:

Nah, that was the starting point. Your arguments are like literally incoherent and continually misrepresent what I say, which is the biggest reason why I've had scummy vibes from you this entire time. Town-ILTS isn't this incompetent.

Like I shouldn't have to explain to you HOW TO THINK. You've been to kindergarten.

[iLikeToSnipe]

1 minute ago, OrangeP47 said:

Nah, that was the starting point. Your arguments are like literally incoherent and continually misrepresent what I say, which is the biggest reason why I've had scummy vibes from you this entire time. Town-ILTS isn't this incompetent.

[OrangeP47]

Just now, iLikeToSnipe said:

I should have linked the video instead of just quoting it yesterday

[ChopBam]

Just now, OrangeP47 said:

Like I shouldn't have to explain to you HOW TO THINK. You've been to kindergarten.

The reason I was leaning toward iLTS being scum in this game was that I was in those same shoes last game when I knew I was town but iLTS was going after me with whatever bullshit he could find. It seemed to the outside like a really solid case but I knew in my mind that I was town so I kept fighting. Perhaps I have some empathy for you, but that could also be my downfall, so I'm trying to be careful.

[OrangeP47]

1 minute ago, ChopBam said:

The reason I was leaning toward iLTS being scum in this game was that I was in those same shoes last game when I knew I was town but iLTS was going after me with whatever bullshit he could find. It seemed to the outside like a really solid case but I knew in my mind that I was town so I kept fighting. Perhaps I have some empathy for you, but that could also be my downfall, so I'm trying to be careful.

I mean, he's literally been using multiple logically fallacies. He's not built a solid case. TBH if I lose, it probably is my own damn fault, because I haven't been sitting here pointing out every one. It just feels so blatant I'm just like "how can everyone else not see this?". Like how I keep saying he can't say my points both do and do not have merit.

[iLikeToSnipe]

3 minutes ago, ChopBam said:

The reason I was leaning toward iLTS being scum in this game was that I was in those same shoes last game when I knew I was town but iLTS was going after me with whatever bullshit he could find. It seemed to the outside like a really solid case but I knew in my mind that I was town so I kept fighting. Perhaps I have some empathy for you, but that could also be my downfall, so I'm trying to be careful.

That might be your answer actually. Compare who in this case is using hyperbole and being relentless and who isn't...

If you want me to re-summarize all the points I've made against Orange I can do that; it has gotten muddled in the past two days. Despite what he says, I have not made "multiple logical fallacies".

Now that you talk about it and I type this out, Orange is doing exactly what I did to you. He's ignoring post content or the actual content of an argument. If I try and point out that he was the only one to continue arguing for a lynch on Voe and did so with weak arguments against me instead of the actual content of my arguments, he just skips over that. He picks and chooses what he argues against instead of the whole picture.

[OrangeP47]

1 minute ago, iLikeToSnipe said:

That might be your answer actually. Compare who in this case is using hyperbole and being relentless and who isn't...

If you want me to re-summarize all the points I've made against Orange I can do that; it has gotten muddled in the past two days. Despite what he says, I have not made "multiple logical fallacies".

Now that you talk about it and I type this out, Orange is doing exactly what I did to you. He's ignoring post content or the actual content of an argument. If I try and point out that he was the only one to continue arguing for a lynch on Voe and did so with weak arguments against me instead of the actual content of my arguments, he just skips over that. He picks and chooses what he argues against instead of the whole picture.

The vast majority of your case against me has basically been "no u", but if you want we can rehash it out, step by step, for Chop's benefit.

[OrangeP47]

Test post please ignore:

Test

[OrangeP47]

Hey it works!

Alright, I'll begin laying things out, with slightly better formatting than I usually have. Might take awhile.

[ChopBam]

19 minutes ago, iLikeToSnipe said:

Now that you talk about it and I type this out, Orange is doing exactly what I did to you.

[iLikeToSnipe]

@ChopBam

Okay, let me do a rehash. On D2 it came down to either KY or Orange as the last mafia. Expecting myself to die N2 and not being able to trust a cop report from either of them, I knew that the only way to reliably find mafia was to go back to post analysis.

Since we haven't had much content this game compared to others, I just started at the very beginning of D1 and worked my way through. That's where I noticed an immediate difference between KY and Orange. KY floated the idea of a nolynch, Orange floated the idea of lynching Voe. Discussion kept on going and Orange started the lynch train on Voe. I came back, read through the posts, gave my thoughts on nolynch vs lynch, and pointed out that I thought it suspicious how quickly Voe gained enough votes to be lynched.

Instead of actually responding to any of my points, Orange immediately told me to "try again" and called me the scummiest player without any reasoning. The responses from everyone else to my post were calm and reasonable. Orange continued to attack me with a whole bunch of WIFOM and conjecture, as well as a flimsy attack on my post style; if you really want to go back and look at my post history you'll see that it's consistent between all alignments. Orange then skips over obvious logical steps, such as nolynching as much as we can, and finishes up D1 with a weak admission that nolynching makes more sense and still calling me scummy without providing any actual reasoning as to why.

This is just what happened during D1. When comparing Orange to KY D2, it was very obvious to me that one player was scummier than the other. I then made a post with these findings and placed my vote onto Orange. That's when Orange went aggressive and everything just devolved into a mess. The content of Orange's posts the rest of that day don't matter as much to me as the pattern behind them. Orange is just trying to get any lynch to happen. He's not trying to find scum.

His behavior on D1 and his reactions to my post D2 were scummy. D2 he was not being helpful. I'll just let KY summarize this for me.

"I don't like his line of reasoning, as it seems oriented around making his decisions seem right rather than helping town. iLTS, on the other hand, has been very helpful, and his logic seems very pro-Town."

[OrangeP47]

Holy shit guys, my power just went out in the middle of typing this wall of text and the forum SAVED my post. I seriously love this forum.  Slight delay, but I'm still working on it.

[iLikeToSnipe]

Just now, OrangeP47 said:

Holy shit guys, my power just went out in the middle of typing this wall of text and the forum SAVED my post. I seriously love this forum.  Slight delay, but I'm still working on it.

I accidentally hit the shortcut to close my Chrome window while typing up mine and it saved it. This is so much better than the old forum.

[OrangeP47]

Each case is in it's own spoiler area, to keep them organized.

Okay, case #1: 

This case was basically just scummy vibes I got from ILTS day one. For the record, I didn't want to pursue it at the time, being in favor of the Voe Nexus resolution, and then later the double no lynch.  By the time mechanics had seemingly put it down to either KY or Me I honestly didn't think it was ILTS at all, but now that he's come back into focus I think it's valid to reconsider again.

This post here was some early suspicious on him for not saying his "peek" right away, though I didn't pounce on it too hard. 

Here is what really set off my senses though.  The "That's Interesting" legit is a well known scum tell in mafia circles, and I'm honestly gonna start harping on it a lot. Now just saying so isn't much and is taking my word for it, so I'll put forth WHY, which is also the reason I keep coming back to repeatidly.  ILTS isn't ENGAGING with the previous discussion. He's glossing over it. We had a large discussion of lynching Voe, and what does ILTS say about it all. "Interesting".  When called out on it and pressed for more he's basically like "yeah your discussion is trash" and really doesn't engage with it still. THAT is why I didn't like his conduct originally, even if the two no-lynch plan did have merit.

Case #2

This is the post where I start to pretty much agree with ILTS, just as a reference for at the time thinking he's town and that KY is the scum.

Check out the next few posts though. I try to engage ILTS, and again, he doesn't really get any back and forth with me, and furthmore seems to not be aware of my report. I inform him I can't be the sane cop unless he is the scum (if this holds true still then he did think KY was the sane cop). Note this was not an accusation, but at that point he suddenly builds a case against me. This is where I say he basically attacked me without provocation. I'm trying to work with him and suddenly he just cases me while I'm trying to improve his argument but he won't engage with me.

I'll keep this short by just compiling a list of other grievances:

Bad Argument: Strawmaning.  Basically acting as if I presented the choice between killing Voe and killing no one as the only options when discussing N1 kill analysis when that's patently ridiculous.

Just a post to highlight the fact that after pushing for double no-lynch, ILTS is the one wanting to ramp things up, while simultaneously trying to tar me as the reckless one.

I won't rehash what we talked about this day phase, as it should still be fresh enough. There's also plenty of actual detail if you read the whole thing, but I get the impression you've actually done that so pointing out things for the umpteenth time won't help.