VERTi60

I remember that bug...and I'm sure anyone whose played back in those days has been guilty of exploiting it one time or another. Myself included. Well it kinda actually made sense since the dome part could be considered as a weak-point... Then again it was unintentional but I guess both sides had the same issue.

Well you're the one comparing the grenadier to spy, engineer, or whatsoever. Let's compare it to it's actual counterpart then

Theoretically it could be like that, but once again not very common in practice. In AOW maps most of the players jump to vehicles anyway and you are a rambo the moment your vehicle dies. If you can't defend yourself in close range then you can't do much tbh. Infantry rushes are usually different - either high end units, where as the early rushes with low level units consist of units which are good inside buildings, e.g. close quarters (and grenadiers are not anymore), I really don't see the long range grenadier who could make "traps" anyway more useful with this new approach. Well you pushed it further. Now you have it

Huh, I guess TeamWolf is insane then. He is, that's not new The price tag is too high compared to other low level infantry which are much better for almost every occasion compared to new grenadiers. It shouldn't cost more than the flamethrower then if your argument was to have an alternative. Also once again you're using false comparison with a completely different unit which has a specialized role capable of doing multiple things, listening to enemy chat being the least. No soviet player will care how much the spy cost, as they're doing a decision between the low level fighting infantry when considering the price. Hence you have to compare it to the other similar units. Seeing a 5oo$ grenadier would give a false impression that he's actually more useful than starshina, kapitan, rpg, or even flamethrower. Which is false if you consider that he was actually nerfed in his role, not buffed. Yes, that was not the intent. It just happens to be the one W3D mod I know that really loves the "this secondary fire is arbitrarily anti-something that the primary is not, but since it looks and sounds identical to the primary and fires at the same rate you'll never be sure what it even is without extensive testing or delving into the objects.ddb" thing. The fact that it just happens to Reborn does not matter... or rather, it wasn't supposed to but apparently it now does. "The Reborn approach of "hurr let's make this weapon's secondary fire arbitrarily good against different units than the primary fire is, surely people will just KNOW that when there's no indication of it" is bad." I don't know but that statement sounds pretty sarcastic and hostile at first, like most of your replies The fact that you require two other staff members for the excuse just hardens the point. I don't really care about how it sounded though just explaining where the so called toxicity comes from Also if you want to brag about reborn's weapons or comparing them, look how good the disc thrower works. It's simple, doesn't have ridiculous range or timer, and it didn't require much changes. It's good for close and far combat, works well against infantry if you learn how to throw, even vehicles and buildings. He's actually worth his price tag. Compared to your version of grenadier, where all you managed to provide so far (artillery against buildings), it's laughable.

1. Have you ever thought that grenadier is best for close quarters while it is the flamethrower which is better suited for long range (by making the flamethrower a bit more long range)? I just tried the timed grenades. They're ridiculous, it feels like you're hurt even if does explode like 10 meters away from you. It's no use whatsoever now, and since they are timed it's impossible to use them as ranged attack. 2. No comment as Reborm vs APB arguments are old and don't address issues. They are for kids who like to throw mud at each other 3. Well then. Since grenades are just bad when they are timed. It doesn't work well in fast paced shooter. Works good for C4s but not for throwing grenades which are suppose to be the main attack weapon. If we can't have both versions then, we only need the first no-timed version. 4. Nobody cares about the model of the grenade if it simply doesn't work. You need to sort out the weapon first, then worry about the models Even if we have two same models or just one or a placeholder, it doesn't matter. It's not about the model but about the weapon itself. Have you tested the grenadier now? I think any of the previous versions worked a lot better. The blast radius is too large, you'll damage yourself rather quickly and the enemy will finish you sooner before the last grenade explodes. You're denying grenadiers to use grenades in most inf vs inf situations (aka close combat as that's what most infantry do - not just buildings). You can't use the grenadier as a long range because non of the infantry will stand in one place either and wait for the grenade to explode. You won't be able to hit any vehicle now at all. So why using the grenades if anything else works better? Basically he's useless in almost every situation other than random kov-tillery fire. RPG is actually more useful now than grenadiers. But what if I want to use something which is either good against infantry and low armor vehicles, and does some damage to buildings too? RPG is anti armor/AA for the most part - but not particularly good against fast vehicles with anti infantry riding them... Kovs, shockers, even RPG are way better at hitting and damaging buildings than the (now overpriced) grenadier (except the cheaper RPG can at least defend against armor and air). I don't know a sane person who would use grenadiers now. They are simply more usable for close combat scenarios. Giving them a pistol, higher price tag, nerfing their HP and fighting capabilities will not make them any more usable.

Why should I? Their price was basically unchanged and they are also very specialized units. You've increased the price of the grenadier by more than 300% though which is quite noticeable. Why not add anti-inf grenade instead which would have small blast radius on impact (e.g. you would have to hit the infantry or very close) and leave time grenades with higher blast radius as a secondary option? We used to have similar setup before for the grenadier and it worked? Pistol is something which will completely change the meta game for grenadier and I personally don't particularly like it (renegade approach of things to give every infantry a side arm, making pistol fests decide the victor) Yes they have, but the only viable ones are the high end infantry (not available on all maps), which are also bad vs infantry. Grenadier was suppose to be a jack of all trades - good anti inf, semi anti veh and semi good against buildings. Now you'll turn him into something which will not be good against anything (unless you're pistol pro), I mean for his price. You would be better off with any other low tech infantry. What would be the point of time grenade only when most of the time you would use grenadier in close situations anyway? It's not like he's now super effective on open ground with the pistol...

Yea passing the armor part would be probably worse in a long run balance wise.

500 for a squishy infantry unit is too much imho. Generally I don't like any change done to the unit, the pistol is overkill since the grenade is suppose to be anti infantry already. If anything for such a price increase he could get some anti veh capabilities.

Well there used to be a bug where the dome area took double damage once

But the Bee Memes are associated with the Proto Seeker gun since it's basically releasing homing bee swarms to your enemies Take the recent dev stream for example: https://youtu.be/EzfR2c1xvXA?t=5m7s

... There's also a nice mechanic in AR, where you can para-drop yourself as well. "It doesn't have to be a snowman AI"

Now I would agree to accept this as long it would mean that even these maps will follow it. There used to be even more maps without PP while having advanced defenses, now since we have only two left they could be easily fixable. Seamist used to be with only flame towers on multiple revisions, it was playable, it gave allies an opportunity to strike back, even though it was hard since the flame wall was hardly destroyed even back then. Coils are overkill, since they deny allies to play mid field, they limit them too much IMHO. I understand the concept of soviets having ultra advantage but still... Allies don't have turrets either. Ridge War - I agree that the game play with coils is much better, but Soviets have plenty of space in the base to have additional APP? Ok why are we inventing more problems based on the the bad concept? Most of these arguments are illogical as they don't really help to address the issue - we're addressing the dome as the redundant structure and it's purpose, not the danger of missing functionalities in it's absence (yes we can have that too, but then again that's not fixing the problem itself). If we were to address their functionality only in absence, we'll be better off without them since they don't have any purpose on maps where they are compared to maps where they're absent (Seamist is excluded since there it has purpose as already stated). To use Frozen's analogy, "wanna build a snowman? it doesn't have to be a snowman?" We can have multiple added values to the dome building itself. Make it to have a purpose, even simple. It's much better, not only logically, but also game play wise. The sole thought of "oh damn, we have a dome, another building to defend, I would much rather play on a dome-less map where I have radar anyways" to "cool we have a dome, now we have this and this... "This and this" could be anything. Having Dome bind to the artillery and v2 as discussed Having a reinforcement script applied on one of the dome's panel in case War Factory would go down Having access to sonar - if it could be scripted for naval Para drops terminal (mechanic already exists), since we don't have airfields ... Basically anything would do as long as it's adding value to the "having the building in base", not just another thing to worry about or getting in way. I don't even... "The purpose of the dome is the dome being alive"?

You don't have a WF - you don't have vehicles. You don't have a helipad - you don't have air. So why not have the same concept for APP and Dome? Having them is even worse than having a script zone.

There are even less maps with missile silos and I don't see any complaints about the limited availability of a-bomb flares. If the power plant serves no purpose because it's possible to place functional powered defenses without it, then the refinery is useless because it's possible to place a functional dump script zone without it (which some of Timeaua's Reborn maps did and nobody ever piped up about that!) Or that the construction yard is useless because it's possible to add a script that says "heal all soviet buildings this many HPs per second" without it. Or that the helipad is useless because it's possible to tie aircraft production to another main building and exclusively use refill pads for refilling instead Now you are simply inventing how to make even more buildings obsolete, great job, Pushwall! You forgot that you can also chinook or para-drop vehicles or have infantry change via the terminals on the ground too Then we'll just have empty bases full of script zones instead.

Again we're talking about weak-points not something which does have another purpose. It's a nice trait to have this linked to the advanced def structures but then again you don't have many maps with gap gen. And as you mentioned there are maps with TCs but no PPs so it's not even consistent for soviets. Actually even the very old versions before gamma had air. I kinda miss the Chinook flare rush on that particular map. The map is more fun with air than artillery anyway.

I don't see an issue here. Why would it be horrible to have team radar only on infantry or low level maps (which play fast). Enemy radar is already revealing too much when you can already see half of the map by yourself, it would at least make cover or sneak tactics make some meaning. APB has already lost it's "spark" when it comes to sneak tactics or unseen rushes. Really the all-seeing, every-time functioning enemy radar could be considered as redundant or bonus feature, the game play wouldn't be affected with or without it that much (does everyone go for the enemy radar dome first? >No because losing radar anyway is not that crippling for the other team). Why would it then be a problem on maps without radar?! At least it would give some dynamic to the game and a real meaning for the Radar Dome, not just a weak point mechanic. Yea why not have maps that don't have artillery units. We used to have guard duty and some maps without them, and some of them played better. We have enough AOW maps already. Besides, we can have a neutral Dome in the mid field on Guard Duty where one side can capture it and then could produce the artillery unit. Might be a bit more interesting to have a mechanic like this since Guard duty is pretty dull where it comes to B2B artillery shoot outs. Zama doesn't really need artillery units since it has air as support (most of the time people buy air units before artillery). Camos Canyon would probably be better off without artillery units because the map is pretty flat and small without much cover. Seamist - to be discussed, I can imagine adding a soviet dome could be done as there were multiple changes to fit more soviet structures already. If that can't be done, there could be an exception or a limited number of soviet v2s (as counterpart to one allied artillery). IMHO, this is a design flaw from the beginning. There is no logical sense of having the extra PP in base when it does nothing. Either have them on every base map, or have some advantage to go with it. Otherwise it's just a waste of space. All I see is advocating why it's ok to have Radar Dome and PP/APP as weak-point but disregarding their perks or purpose for that matter. Logically it doesn't make sense. We have buildings which are producing nothing, doing nothing, just standing there to cripple you if they are destroyed. There's no point of having them then, let's just put power lines everywhere instead. I'm all for having objectives assigned to buildings. At least it's giving them some purpose. Why not having them on more maps where they could be neutral and give perks to one side if captured (normally the proper way would be to build them in the first place, but that's not possible).

As I used to mention this on BHP a lot too, the whole concept of some of the buildings being nothing more than "weak-points" is bad (e.g. you're better off without radar dome and pp/APP than actually having them). Why not bind the Domes to have actual all-see radar and artillery units? Why not have APP/PP boost your economy or production rate instead? Having some small perks instead of just having weak points that are made up just because you have the building. If you don't have the building you no longer have the weakpoint but you shouldn't have "perks" as well.

Thanks for letting us know, I got mine yesterday as well. It's free - all you have to do is sign up. You'll get a free robot, free 4 (!) cosmetic masks (they look good on other builds too) + if you're a new player you'll jump to level 88 instantly.

That's why he asked to be an apc for the third game I guess ... Also Mr. No Lynch likes to play the chat mafia and when he's voted he joins D2

The shorter the game, the bigger chance scum has to slip by. Then again town had 20% chance to either lynch or shoot the scum and win day 1, which would eventually happen if we had more games played

That particular bug was fixed in the proto seeker update. See patch notes

GG everyone who showed up. We managed to get 3 chat games played by 5 players: Chaos_Knight FRAYDO Generalcamo Retaliation RocketOuthouse Game logs here: http://imgur.com/a/1rsWJ

Slowly reminder: A couple of players are ready, we could use 3 or 5 for a game to start. Join ts.w3dhub.com

Countdown for the Chat Mafia Event

Yes, if you know you want to play let me know. I would accept last tiime entries too but it will just delay the game start Everything is ready and Channel on TS is prepared.