ts Dev.Blog 5- OMFG NOT DA LAZARS RAWR! (11/28/2011)

[Guest Retaliation]

@r315razor A martyrdom style upgrade for the stealth tank might fit if you assume that all nods assets are expendable, but nod is an organization that relies on a mass of fervent if untrained soldiers commanded by/defended a solid core of professionals/devout. Stealth tanks are expensive machines that only the best of the best are given the honor of driving. However this isn't why I disagree with copying TS's elite ability in this case. Stealth tanks are expensive and if the economy is scaled right where losing a high tech unit isn't a w/e scenario you are more likely to be running away from the enemy when you are about to die rather than approaching. In addition the stealth tank's role is ambush and would be better served with upgrades that improve the alpha strike capability such as the double rocket clip size I suggested for the bike. Enemy can't hurt you if he/she is dead after all!

 

I really really really like the idea of bikes getting an on death explosion though. It just makes so much sense with the fast speed, killing, and death aspect of the thing.

 

Final note, I would like to suggest a removal of friendly fire on the elite disruptor if you intend on keeping that in.

[Guest r315r4z0r]

I think they are a good idea because they can break the gameplay up into more unpredictable battles. Rather than unit A always will beat unit B, you're given some more randomized content that can change the flow of the game away from being repeitive. However, that still remains to be said about what bonuses each vehicle should get in order for it to provide a fresh take on gameplay without necessarily disjointing it from it's intended role.

[Nodlied]

I have to say, thats one good looking service depot.

[Guest r315r4z0r]

@r315razor A martyrdom style upgrade for the stealth tank might fit if you assume that all nods assets are expendable, but nod is an organization that relies on a mass of fervent if untrained soldiers commanded by/defended a solid core of professionals/devout. Stealth tanks are expensive machines that only the best of the best are given the honor of driving. However this isn't why I disagree with copying TS's elite ability in this case. Stealth tanks are expensive and if the economy is scaled right where losing a high tech unit isn't a w/e scenario you are more likely to be running away from the enemy when you are about to die rather than approaching. In addition the stealth tank's role is ambush and would be better served with upgrades that improve the alpha strike capability such as the double rocket clip size I suggested for the bike. Enemy can't hurt you if he/she is dead after all! I really really really like the idea of bikes getting an on death explosion though. It just makes so much sense with the fast speed, killing, and death aspect of the thing. Final note, I would like to suggest a removal of friendly fire on the elite disruptor if you intend on keeping that in.

Honestly, that only makes the point stronger that stealth tanks should be fitted with explosives. You seem to be under the impression that they would be considered suicide bombers by having this ability. That isn't the intention. You even said it yourself that Nod doesn't have the numbers to allow for such use of their soldiers that way. But that is all the more reason why it makes sense for their vehicles to be explosive upon demise.

 

1. If Nod doesn't have enough troops for them to be considered expendable, then it only makes more sense to make their vehicles as combat effective as possible. If their unit is going to die in combat they should do it in a large explosion that takes many enemies with them. They are going to die regardless.

 

2. Stealth tanks are expensive and are a very important piece of technology in Nod's army. That is why they should be set to detonate when disabled by the enemy. This is to prevent them from falling into GDI's hands and allowing GDI to reverse engineer a counter to them.

 

They aren't going to become demo trucks. They won't drive into a populated area, press a button, and then blow themselves up. That isn't the point. The explosion is merely an extra kick in the face to GDI when they manage to take down a stealth tank.

Edited November 30, 2011 by r315r4z0r

[Wallywood]

The thing I dislike about large text blarb posts in this thread in particular is that it makes it hard to know which posts to ignore due to them being about as relevant as slave labor in the East.

LOL no kidding

 

 

You mentioned something about the MSG. How exactly are you planning on having it work? I actually rather liked its original style of having to be deployed before generating a stealth field. I don't like the concept of Nod being able to move a rush team under the cover of a moving stealth field. The field should be used to hold positions on the field rather than cover troop advancement. That's what the stealth tank is for.

Yeah I understand the concern in this. And Thank you for express it correctly.

I plan on making the MSA have to stay still during deployment, I'm even going to give the player who is using the MSA some sort of bonus for using it. Because I think personally it would be very boring sitting around deployed with no pay off of some sort.

 

Now about the MSG. The issue with it having to stay in one spot is that I'm afraid it's going to be come a sitting duck unit. Since not all units are going to be radar invisible it would be really easy findings a bunch of grouped units. And just firing shells into the area where they are forced to sit. Without any fog of war and realistically sized maps, it would be way too easy to spot a group of units and then over run then even if they did stop and deploy. But that will be tested more to see which way is better. A couple of other ideas I had to fix this was. 1) Maybe making the MSG invisible all the time and when it deployed giving it the stealth radius, or 2) give the MSG a very small stealth radius, but when its deployed give it a large stealth radius. As you can see we're still thinking up details for this.

[Wallywood]

@r315razor A martyrdom style upgrade for the stealth tank might fit if you assume that all nods assets are expendable, but nod is an organization that relies on a mass of fervent if untrained soldiers commanded by/defended a solid core of professionals/devout. Stealth tanks are expensive machines that only the best of the best are given the honor of driving. However this isn't why I disagree with copying TS's elite ability in this case. Stealth tanks are expensive and if the economy is scaled right where losing a high tech unit isn't a w/e scenario you are more likely to be running away from the enemy when you are about to die rather than approaching. In addition the stealth tank's role is ambush and would be better served with upgrades that improve the alpha strike capability such as the double rocket clip size I suggested for the bike. Enemy can't hurt you if he/she is dead after all!

Just to clear things up. We didn't make up the martyrdom idea, it is in Tiberian Sun/Firestorm. Both the disruptor and stealth tank had these perks. So if Westwood was okay with it blowing up on death then I'm going to have to disagree with this statement

Stealth tanks are expensive machines that only the best of the best are given the honor of driving. However this isn't why I disagree with copying TS's elite ability in this case. Stealth tanks are expensive and if the economy is scaled right where losing a high tech unit isn't a w/e scenario you are more likely to be running away from the enemy when you are about to die rather than approaching.

 

And again these are the perks. The fire power, ROT, and range are all things that will be added in to each unit that reaches their top ranks. The perks are just kinda the icing on the cake so to speak.

 

 

 

I really really really like the idea of bikes getting an on death explosion though. It just makes so much sense with the fast speed, killing, and death aspect of the thing.

That's not a bad idea at all. The only problem I see with it is that I'm trying to make the Reacon Bike less of a throw away unit. But I will keep this suggestion in mind.

 

 

Final note, I would like to suggest a removal of friendly fire on the elite disruptor if you intend on keeping that in.

The exploding on death will NOT dish out Friendly Fire at all. I stated that earlier

[Guest Retaliation]

@r315razor A martyrdom style upgrade for the stealth tank might fit if you assume that all nods assets are expendable, but nod is an organization that relies on a mass of fervent if untrained soldiers commanded by/defended a solid core of professionals/devout. Stealth tanks are expensive machines that only the best of the best are given the honor of driving. However this isn't why I disagree with copying TS's elite ability in this case. Stealth tanks are expensive and if the economy is scaled right where losing a high tech unit isn't a w/e scenario you are more likely to be running away from the enemy when you are about to die rather than approaching. In addition the stealth tank's role is ambush and would be better served with upgrades that improve the alpha strike capability such as the double rocket clip size I suggested for the bike. Enemy can't hurt you if he/she is dead after all! I really really really like the idea of bikes getting an on death explosion though. It just makes so much sense with the fast speed, killing, and death aspect of the thing. Final note, I would like to suggest a removal of friendly fire on the elite disruptor if you intend on keeping that in.

Honestly, that only makes the point stronger that stealth tanks should be fitted with explosives. You seem to be under the impression that they would be considered suicide bombers by having this ability. That isn't the intention. You even said it yourself that Nod doesn't have the numbers to allow for such use of their soldiers that way. But that is all the more reason why it makes sense for their vehicles to be explosive upon demise.

 

1. If Nod doesn't have enough troops for them to be considered expendable, then it only makes more sense to make their vehicles as combat effective as possible. If their unit is going to die in combat they should do it in a large explosion that takes many enemies with them. They are going to die regardless.

 

2. Stealth tanks are expensive and are a very important piece of technology in Nod's army. That is why they should be set to detonate when disabled by the enemy. This is to prevent them from falling into GDI's hands and allowing GDI to reverse engineer a counter to them.

 

They aren't going to become demo trucks. They won't drive into a populated area, press a button, and then blow themselves up. That isn't the point. The explosion is merely an extra kick in the face to GDI when they manage to take down a stealth tank.

 

I know they won't become demo trucks (although I wouldn't be against on button detonation for the units that do end up with it ). It's just their cost/health ratio is abnormally low (basing this off of traditionally being a fragile unit) requiring a large amount of skill to kill ~3x their worth in units without dying (I am taking repurchasing vet into account here before anyone says anything ). It just seems inelegant for Nod's most practical application of stealth technology to simply blow itself up on death. Sure you might take a guy with you in death, but was it worth losing your 1500(?) cred unit to take out that titan? In CnC3 they became absolute monsters when fully vetted in the hands of an experienced player. I think I'm against an on death for these expensive units because I view it as wasting the potential to implement neat little traits like you guys did with umagon.

 

Also the friendly fire suggestion was for the disruption cannon. I recall the dang things being able to single handedly wipe out my own army! Should have made that more clear.

[Wallywood]

They aren't going to become demo trucks. They won't drive into a populated area, press a button, and then blow themselves up. That isn't the point. The explosion is merely an extra kick in the face to GDI when they manage to take down a stealth tank.

That's exactly right. Think about how many times you've been in a battle in Ren. or APB or whatever and you've been killed by a nearby unit or an annoying infantry that is running circles around you exploiting your blind spots and when they kill you they have only a a little bit of health left. Or lets say you rush a base and you get killed right before the building you were attacking is destroyed and lets say they kill your elite Stealth tank right behind the that building. That final little explosion from your unit maybe enough to take out that building or unit and on top of that you won't die from the explosions so you can stay and fight.

 

It just seems inelegant for Nod's most practical application of stealth technology to simply blow itself up on death. Sure you might take a guy with you in death, but was it worth losing your 1500(?) cred unit to take out that titan?

In the examples I gave above, yes it is worth it. If its going to die anyway why not take out or do damage to nearby enemy's. Its better then it doing nothing at all and someone just running you over after they take out your ride.

[Wallywood]

Also the friendly fire suggestion was for the disruption cannon. I recall the dang things being able to single handedly wipe out my own army! Should have made that more clear.

lol sry thought you ment the perk lol. But basically the same answer applies here ..no the Disruptor's ray will not deal friendly damage.

[Raptor29aa]

Now about the MSG. The issue with it having to stay in one spot is that I'm afraid it's going to be come a sitting duck unit. Since not all units are going to be radar invisible it would be really easy findings a bunch of grouped units. And just firing shells into the area where they are forced to sit. Without any fog of war and realistically sized maps, it would be way too easy to spot a group of units and then over run then even if they did stop and deploy. But that will be tested more to see which way is better. A couple of other ideas I had to fix this was. 1) Maybe making the MSG invisible all the time and when it deployed giving it the stealth radius, or 2) give the MSG a very small stealth radius, but when its deployed give it a large stealth radius. As you can see we're still thinking up details for this.

 

The last version I last tested (RC2) on the reborn test team. It has the MSG deploy and then I was able to leave the vehicle and the vehicle remained cloaked while I (being a cloaked cyborg in a tiberium field) waited to ambush a titan with my cannon...

How I see it, it's like an expensive deploy and abandon vehicle (so I can get a piece of the action).

 

Warning Logic below...

 

Pros to MSG cloaked while abandoned:

Infantry inside cloaked units can defend base (it's better than an MGG in that regard)

Can be left near a corner of the GDI base and so help the influtration effort (as in defenses are down and I want to sneak in as an inf) only threat being a mobile radar detector.

If captured by GDI it can't be used to guide an invisible MKII to the nod base (one big nod plus)

 

 

Pros to MSG cloaking field while moving (no need to deploy):

Driver cannot join in on an attack

Can guide an entire attack force (a rush) from one base to another unseen and unbothered by Air, ground, or hover/sea units till they attack their target (mix that with a Mobile repair unit=death). YET... GDI has a mobile radar dectector unit.

If captured the above instance can happen in reverse as in cloaked titans, GS, and MKII. AND nod has no mobile radar unit... aka little hope.

 

Cons to MSG visible while abandoned (deployable or not deployable):

Makes it easier to kill from air, ground, and hover/sea

Makes it very easy to steal.

 

Cons to MSG visible while moving (deployable):

It is slow and vulnerable to air, ground, and hover/sea.

 

Pros to MSG only cloaked while moving:

It is unseen in transport and unnoticed by anyone till it deploys. (or mobile radar detector)

Less threatening if stolen since it is visible

 

Cons to MSG only cloaked while moving:

GDI will have no way of finding and destroying it, unless it charges into battle, or is found by chance. (Or mobile radar detector)

If stolen nod will have a harder time finding it no mobile radar detector.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Raptor29aa

[Guest r315r4z0r]

@r315razor A martyrdom style upgrade for the stealth tank might fit if you assume that all nods assets are expendable, but nod is an organization that relies on a mass of fervent if untrained soldiers commanded by/defended a solid core of professionals/devout. Stealth tanks are expensive machines that only the best of the best are given the honor of driving. However this isn't why I disagree with copying TS's elite ability in this case. Stealth tanks are expensive and if the economy is scaled right where losing a high tech unit isn't a w/e scenario you are more likely to be running away from the enemy when you are about to die rather than approaching. In addition the stealth tank's role is ambush and would be better served with upgrades that improve the alpha strike capability such as the double rocket clip size I suggested for the bike. Enemy can't hurt you if he/she is dead after all! I really really really like the idea of bikes getting an on death explosion though. It just makes so much sense with the fast speed, killing, and death aspect of the thing. Final note, I would like to suggest a removal of friendly fire on the elite disruptor if you intend on keeping that in.

Honestly, that only makes the point stronger that stealth tanks should be fitted with explosives. You seem to be under the impression that they would be considered suicide bombers by having this ability. That isn't the intention. You even said it yourself that Nod doesn't have the numbers to allow for such use of their soldiers that way. But that is all the more reason why it makes sense for their vehicles to be explosive upon demise.

 

1. If Nod doesn't have enough troops for them to be considered expendable, then it only makes more sense to make their vehicles as combat effective as possible. If their unit is going to die in combat they should do it in a large explosion that takes many enemies with them. They are going to die regardless.

 

2. Stealth tanks are expensive and are a very important piece of technology in Nod's army. That is why they should be set to detonate when disabled by the enemy. This is to prevent them from falling into GDI's hands and allowing GDI to reverse engineer a counter to them.

 

They aren't going to become demo trucks. They won't drive into a populated area, press a button, and then blow themselves up. That isn't the point. The explosion is merely an extra kick in the face to GDI when they manage to take down a stealth tank.

 

I know they won't become demo trucks (although I wouldn't be against on button detonation for the units that do end up with it ). It's just their cost/health ratio is abnormally low (basing this off of traditionally being a fragile unit) requiring a large amount of skill to kill ~3x their worth in units without dying (I am taking repurchasing vet into account here before anyone says anything ). It just seems inelegant for Nod's most practical application of stealth technology to simply blow itself up on death. Sure you might take a guy with you in death, but was it worth losing your 1500(?) cred unit to take out that titan?...

That isn't the point though. It isn't going into battle expecting to die in a heroic blaze of glory for the greater cause of Nod. It goes into battle to function like it would normally. The added explosion is just for use in the case that the stealth tank DOES meet its end, it goes out swinging. Again it isn't a suicide bomber. They go into battle expecting to come out alive and be able to fight another day. It's just an added bonus for when the tank finally does get destroyed.

 

If it is going to die anyway why not go out in an effective blast to further the cause? The intention is not to target an enemy and then explode on them. If that happens, then its an incredible waste of money. The point is to do battle and be as best as you can be but when you finally do die, you can claim to have taken down those few extra units. If no one was around when you died for you to damage then oh well... but if you earned the right to have that ability in the first place, you obviously used the tank to its fullest anyway.

[Guest r315r4z0r]

You mentioned something about the MSG. How exactly are you planning on having it work? I actually rather liked its original style of having to be deployed before generating a stealth field. I don't like the concept of Nod being able to move a rush team under the cover of a moving stealth field. The field should be used to hold positions on the field rather than cover troop advancement. That's what the stealth tank is for.

Yeah I understand the concern in this. And Thank you for express it correctly. I plan on making the MSA have to stay still during deployment, I'm even going to give the player who is using the MSA some sort of bonus for using it. Because I think personally it would be very boring sitting around deployed with no pay off of some sort. Now about the MSG. The issue with it having to stay in one spot is that I'm afraid it's going to be come a sitting duck unit. Since not all units are going to be radar invisible it would be really easy findings a bunch of grouped units. And just firing shells into the area where they are forced to sit. Without any fog of war and realistically sized maps, it would be way too easy to spot a group of units and then over run then even if they did stop and deploy. But that will be tested more to see which way is better. A couple of other ideas I had to fix this was. 1) Maybe making the MSG invisible all the time and when it deployed giving it the stealth radius, or 2) give the MSG a very small stealth radius, but when its deployed give it a large stealth radius. As you can see we're still thinking up details for this.

Well I'd think it's kinda of the point to have that vulnerability. Even though you are stealthed, you're still confined in a small area. Having a bunch of moving Nod units that aren't intended to have stealth fields covered under a mobile cloak would be very unfair to GDI even with their MSAs. The MSG needs to have the weakness that it is a stationary area that can be assaulted randomly. It is that exact reason for why it exists in the first place. GDI at first doesn't know that there is a field. But once they find out there is a field, they still won't know what is in it and where everyone is. They need to take time to scan the area by randomly firing shots into it in order to find enemies... but during that time Nod can have already surrounded and cut off that unit that it wouldn't make any difference because that unit is pretty much dead anyway.

 

And there is also the fact that the MSG can move whether or not GDI units are there to see it. If there isn't anyone to see it change locations, then Nod regains the element of surprise. I see no need to enhance that advantage.

 

 

Also, with stationary MSGs, there are strategies to be used to create sort of a pseudo 'moving' stealth field. For example, you can use a "leap-frog" manuever with two seperate MSGs. One deploys and creates a field while the other advances under the cover of that field. Then then that one deploys to create a new field while the old one packs up and advances. Continue doing this and you can slowly creap your way across the map.

[Wallywood]

edit for the sake of being on topic: Something came across my mind regarding the juggernaut and artillery. If they lobbed their projectiles super-sky-high in TS, how exactly would that be effective in here? Would their projectiles function similarly to that of the artillery in APB? (the juggernaut and nod artillery still have to be deployed before firing, of course)

Yes, it is going to be very similar to Artillery.

 

Hmmm...I had forgotten that it could be deployed and left. This does change the way it could used in a big way. I wounder if there is a way that I could make it speed up the re stealth after the unit fires and is revealed. So yeah I thinking now that making it only stealthed when deployed could work but only if it can be left deployed on the field exited and be re-entered all while staying stealthed. Would give the MSA more of a purpose. Sound good guys?

[Enduar]

That's how it has been, issue is that if GDI finds out there is a MSG cloaked nearby, due to it being a neutral abandoned vehicle they could scan the area and wait for the hitbox to pop up and label it, cloaked or not. I'm not sure if that was ever fixed/removed, and in a sense effectively renders it's own personal cloak useless if the enemy is wise to the method. The cloaked-abandoned MSG is still useful, but it's a serious flaw in the engine that hurts it significantly.

 

Edit:

 

I think I've said this before, but self destruction for the Stealth Tank, while a bit more sensible than the slow disruptor, still doesn't benefit gameplay as much as other options such as modifying it's weapon or its cloaking speed (if possible) in my opinion.

 

The self destruction is one-time-use, as opposed to other upgrades which are active and benefit the driver continuously throughout use of the vehicle. It also rewards death, rather than victory- which is a bit backwards.

 

Cheaper more expendable units would be more sensible (Attack Bike), but typically when a player invests in the highest tier vehicle for a side, they're going to want to hold on to it for a while.

 

That said it could also be said most players might be more appreciative of a perk that would ensure survivability.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Enduar

[Guest APB_ICE]

Pros to MSG cloaked while abandoned:

Infantry inside cloaked units can defend base (it's better than an MGG in that regard)

Can be left near a corner of the GDI base and so help the influtration effort (as in defenses are down and I want to sneak in as an inf) only threat being a mobile radar detector.

If captured by GDI it can't be used to guide an invisible MKII to the nod base (one big nod plus)

IMO, Mobile Stealth Generators and Mobile Sensor Arrays should only function when deployed, and MSG's would, of course, cloak themselves, but both vehicles don't need the driver to function.

This way, the driver can park, deploy, and then leave the vehicle to cloak/scan the area on its own while the player can then participate in combat on foot.

After all, it would be incredibly boring to have to just sit there in your deployed MSG/MSA, twidling your thumbs, while everyone else gets to participate in actual combat.

 

So yeah, I thinking now that making it only stealthed when deployed could work, but only if it can be left deployed on the field, exited and be re-entered, all while staying stealthed. Would give the MSA more of a purpose. Sound good guys?

Agreed 100%

Edited November 30, 2011 by APB_ICE

[Guest Retaliation]

That last post was essentially two ideas glued into one and I didn't realize that until like a few minutes after my post and simply didn't edit it .

 

The first idea was that it takes a tremendous amount of effort, skill, and opportunity to get such a high value unit up to elite. Ideally as I've said before a unit should get vet rewards that migitate a significant drawback otherwise if the unit is well balanced or designed with a specific role in mind like the stealth tank it should enhance its ability to fight. Exploding on death does neither and instead rewards a player who has demonstrated great skill the honor of a one time use/paid ability to explode on death which they (imo) will probably find less fun than an ability that rewards the action the player so successfully managed to avoid: dying (which is in and of itself a whole mess of design issues that I will not bore you to death with <3).

 

Secondly I think that another upgrade would be more useful. I have no idea the size or damage the explosion on death will do and I doubt you have determined it yet, but consider an attack upgrade vs the explode on death one. Exploding on death deals a defined amount of damage in a defined radius. Likely you will make it moderately sized to hit poorly bunched up targets and remove the need for tank hugging. Furthermore I'm guessing that it will be a moderate amount of damage, probably something a bit more powerful than a V2 explosion in APB, to prevent one shotting of mainline tanks and other nonsense. So if successful you will have dealt 200 damage because you died . A damage upgrade meanwhile is probably going to be something from 25% damage bonus to 100% damage bonus. I presume they will fire off missiles in pairs with a decent reload time. Possibly a fourth of the explosion damage per salvo. In ~16 salvos you will have done more damage due to a 25% damage increase than you would have due to the explosion alone. It is also further worth noting that the effect a damage increase has on gameplay is less dependent on the actual increase but more of the relative increase because you are killing stuff (multiplied by 100 of course)

 

new damage - old damage

old damage

 

percent faster. This means that your enemy has less time to react and kill you and decreases the time needed to kill your target. Essentially exploding on death rewards you for dying and gives you a momentary chance at killing something if you fail. A damage increase rewards you for surviving and reduces your chances of failing.

 

I think I'm going to stop now . This is way too much discussion on something that I have yet to see. I just don't want to you guys to make a mistake so early in development. I've seen plenty of games waste their potential because they implemented mechanics in ways that ended up not delivering on all it could have or even subtracting from a game rather than adding to it. I just kinda felt that the way the elite upgrades were shown here that it might go in the not delivering direction if I didn't say anything.

[Guest r315r4z0r]

It would be cool to have vet perks like BF3 has vehicle accessories. When you reach a veteran state, you can choose how you want your new and improved vehicle to function. Perhaps you can choose between more powerful ammo or this death explosion or something like that? A little bit of customization could go a long way... even if it is only on a one round at a time basis.

[Enduar]

Likely too much trouble to do, considering the sort of attitude I've found here- but choice is always a good thing to have in any game. Waaaaay back on the old forums I suggested a similar method where you could customize infantry by purchasing simple additions like a small medkit, extra ammo, and more expensive stuff in a similar way to how the Ion Cannon beacon was purchased in Renegade- your proposal is similar, just with vehicles instead (and likely not interchangeable among different units).

Edited December 1, 2011 by Enduar

[Guest MartinMb]

Nice ideas and nice blog !

 

Maybe the explosing upon death veteran upgrades, however, are not that appropriate, as explained by other people before me.

[Guest r315r4z0r]

In the build before the last build of Reborn, DarkAngle fixed the MSG so that when you deployed a field and then exited the vehicle, it would still stay teamed to Nod and thus wouldn't allow GDI to find the hitbox.

 

However, in the followup build it became broken again due to a certain someone accidentally screwing up the level edit presets for the mod prior to release.

[Guest APB_ICE]

In the build before the last build of Reborn, DarkAngle fixed the MSG so that when you deployed a field and then exited the vehicle, it would still stay teamed to Nod and thus wouldn't allow GDI to find the hitbox.

 

However, in the followup build it became broken again due to a certain someone accidentally screwing up the level edit presets for the mod prior to release.

How does this happen??? :emot-gonk:

[Guest Nod00]

level edit is heavily extended and is not without its quirks

[Raptor29aa]

Also, I'm assuming by world box you mean the targeting square/hitbox that appears around a unit/vehicle when you mouse over it, Retaliation, in which case I'd like to point out it was me who brought that to attention, and as a result it was promptly ignored. Though it's good someone at least read that, even if it was accidental, considering it's been an issue with the MSG for a long time that effectively nullifies it's stealth unless occupied.

A worldbox is not the targeting box. It's an invisible box that characters and vehicles use in the game to calculate collisions. I'm not sure if this box is used to calculate the target box but without worldboxes, everything would fall through the floor.

 

I was the one that mentioned the phrase "world box" in error and It got used, sorry. But yea in RC 1 the MSG worked fine without issue0, but in RC 2 this problem reappeared. As stated above DarkAngel knows something about resolving this issue.

[Guest r315r4z0r]

Anyway, about the mod... I was wondering if this ranking system will be forced into the game or if it will rather be an option to disable/enable it on a server to server basis?

[Guest ryknow]

*comes into the party late*

What flaming was there 0_o????

 

Well... anyways....

 

Scout vehicles need to be enhanced upon the roll they play, Hit and Run.

Assault vehicles need to be enhanced upon their roll, Tank 'n' spank.

GDI

 

*Wolverine- Reveals Stealth

Good, as a wolverine should be a nimble escort to the big Titans, and having it reveal them pesky stealth fucks is quite required.

 

*Amphibious APC- (none)

Should give it even more armor, allow it to get promoted if the driver is DAT skilled.

 

*Titan- Reveals Stealth

Bad, as the titan's role is not to scout and reveal, but to use it's height as a range factor, and pump out steaming hot cannon shells. Increased range, splash, damage, or health/armor is better suited for the Titan's main role, GDI's MBT/W.

 

*Hover MRLS- Self heals

Faster attack rate might be a better idea, but self heals itself is nice for it.

 

*Disrupter- Explodes on death

Bad, as stated many times, the Disrupter is slow, large, and easilly disabled by the travel time of it's beam. Having it explode just doesn't suit it, and needs a better enhancement. A good idea is to inrease the wave speed(which it did in TS) and possibly damage.

 

*Juggernaut- Bigger splash

Yes, yes, and more yes.

 

*Mobile Sensor Array- (none)

Poor thing :[

 

*Mammoth MK.II- Self heals

An already apparent ability from the get-go as the Elite enhancement? Hope to god it's full HP and armor self-heal...

 

*Harvester- Faster harvesting

mhmm, that makes sense

 

*Moblie Emp- (none)

Poor thingx2 =[

 

GDI Flying

 

*Orca Fighter- Radar invis.

Faster RoF would be a better idea for the fighter, while radar invis. is more suited for the bomber.

 

*Orca Bomber- Radar invis.

Goodly suited for the bomber.

 

*Orca Transport- (none)

Gosh... no air squishin huh?

 

Nod

 

*Buggy- Run over inf.

Quite needed, and is as it should be.

 

*Attack Cycle- Self heals

I would say faster movement speed, but as stated, that might be hard to do, so self-heals works into its role good-enough.

 

*Artillery- Bigger splash

Big already, lets just give it a nuke shot.

bag of dicks, my favorite breakfast item,(What the fuck? Any1 care to tell me why it changed what I wrote to that?) same as Jugg., yesx3.

 

*Subterranean APC- (none)

Same as Aphib. APC.

 

*Stealth Tank- Explodes on death

Faster RoF or more blast radius would be much better than explosion, cause that requires it being up and personal, and a Stank never should be up and personal.

 

*Tick Tank- Double fire / Deployed Mini gun

Double fire is... 2 rounds before reload? And it auto gets mini when deployed, and with Elite, can use it without deploying???

If so, that's good

 

*Cyborg Reaper- Run over inf.

Reaper already has a very amazing Infantry disabling use, giving it the ability to just run em over after it doesn't sound quite balanceable, unless it just don't get its webshot...

 

*Moblie Repair Vehicle- faster repairing / Self Repair

Perfect as is.

 

*Devil's Tongue- Self heals

More damage would probably suit it better, as self-healing, as said, would be way too easy if it can just burrow under and wait, then resurface.

 

*Moblie Stealth Generator- (none)

Let it get some squish reward Personal Cloaking!

 

*Harvester- Faster harvesting

Same.

 

Nod Flying

 

*Banshee- Radar invis.

I thought it already had it... Been awhile since I played TS/FS. Same as Bomber though, good suited.

 

*Harpy- Missile Upgrade

Very... anti-infantry missiles right?

Edited December 4, 2011 by ryknow

[Guest r315r4z0r]

*Titan- Reveals Stealth

Bad, as the titan's role is not to scout and reveal, but to use it's height as a range factor, and pump out steaming hot cannon shells. Increased range, splash, damage, or health/armor is better suited for the Titan's main role, GDI's MBT/W.

I kind of agree with this. If we give too many vehicles stealth reveal tech, then the MSA becomes useless. Titan should have a more battle focused enhancement.

 

*Disrupter- Explodes on death

Bad, as stated many times, the Disrupter is slow, large, and easilly disabled by the travel time of it's beam. Having it explode just doesn't suit it, and needs a better enhancement. A good idea is to inrease the wave speed(which it did in TS) and possibly damage.

What if instead of exploding and doing damage, it has an EMP burst explosion? That way if any enemy vehicle is nearby when it blows up they become disabled for a little while.

 

*Orca Fighter- Radar invis.

Faster RoF would be a better idea for the fighter, while radar invis. is more suited for the bomber.

*Orca Bomber- Radar invis.

Goodly suited for the bomber.

I actually don't see a reason for giving them radar invisibility. It seems to be a complete waste of a perk. The range of Radar in Renegade isn't really all that far. It's mainly useful for detecting enemy infantry and small vehicles around your position. But aircraft are going to be plainly visible regardless of circumstances... and even if you can't see them, if they are within range of your radar they are most likely within range of you hearing their engines (Orca engines where REALLY loud and noticeable in the last build I played (they sound like a dental dtrill)). My point is that even if they do become invisible to radar, that won't give them any advantages because it is pretty much impossible to hide or sneak around with an aircraft.

 

I think more ammo, more powerful ammo, or reduced engine noise would be a more practical vehicle enhancement for these aircraft.

 

 

Nod

 

*Cyborg Reaper- Run over inf.

Reaper already has a very amazing Infantry disabling use, giving it the ability to just run em over after it doesn't sound quite balanceable, unless it just don't get its webshot...

Indeed it would become pretty strong... if it manages to survive for that long. And let's not forget that enemy infantry aren't the only things that can oppose it. It might dominate infantry, but that only means that an enemy vehicle would need to deal with the reaper instead.

 

*Moblie Stealth Generator- (none)

Let it get some squish reward Personal Cloaking!

Actually I think that is a pretty good idea. If you run over enough people with the MSG, you should get a personal cloak for when you aren't deployed.

 

Nod Flying

 

*Banshee- Radar invis.

I thought it already had it... Been awhile since I played TS/FS. Same as Bomber though, good suited.

Same complaint about GDI's aircraft. You really can't hide yourself in an aircraft. And even though the Banshee doesn't nearly sound as loud as an Orca, it is still hard to miss a flying thing on such small maps. If it is in range of your radar you probably already know that it is there regardless... so this type of perk is kinda dumb.

 

*Harpy- Missile Upgrade

Very... anti-infantry missiles right?

This one I don't really know what to think. Missiles don't really seem to suit it but then again who knows? I'd actually consider a personal cloaking device for this if the Harpy was mainly effective against infantry and light vehicles (not so much structures aside from defenses)

See blue text above ^^^

 

Edit:

I also had an idea for the MSA. What if you're able to run over enough people with the MSA you gain the ability to act like a mobile radar system? In addition to its primary ability of detecting subs and stealth in a certain radius. This could become very useful if the radar structure is down and it would give another use to an otherwise boring vehicle.

Edited December 4, 2011 by r315r4z0r

[Guest ryknow]

*Titan- Reveals Stealth I kind of agree with this. If we give too many vehicles stealth reveal tech, then the MSA becomes useless. Titan should have a more battle focused enhancement. Good point made, MSA is a unit ingame, and if too many units get its use, then it becomes pointless to have other than to see sub. units.

 

*Disrupter- Explodes on death What if instead of exploding and doing damage, it has an EMP burst explosion? That way if any enemy vehicle is nearby when it blows up they become disabled for a little while. That actually sounds alright(ISH) if the disrupter atleast receives the buff to wave speed as it had in TS/FS.

 

*GDI Air Units- Radar Invis. I actually don't see a reason for giving them radar invisibility. It seems to be a complete waste of a perk. The range of Radar in Renegade isn't really all that far. It's mainly useful for detecting enemy infantry and small vehicles around your position. But aircraft are going to be plainly visible regardless of circumstances... and even if you can't see them, if they are within range of your radar they are most likely within range of you hearing their engines (Orca engines where REALLY loud and noticeable in the last build I played (they sound like a dental dtrill)). My point is that even if they do become invisible to radar, that won't give them any advantages because it is pretty much impossible to hide or sneak around with an aircraft. I think more ammo, more powerful ammo, or reduced engine noise would be a more practical vehicle enhancement for these aircraft. I dislike having the air fighter of GDI get radar stealth, which I agree upon, but for bombers, I was thinking more or less on larger maps. If Reborn Dev Team decides not to include a sort of long range radar(suggested a thousand times for APB, if in need explaination, ask), then this perk is useless. Wally wants to be all high and mighty bout following TS/FS down the roots as best he can, but hopefully, he gets the hint that some things aren't viable, useful, or balanceable in a FPS compared to RTS.

 

Nod

 

*Cyborg Reaper- Run over inf. Indeed it would become pretty strong... if it manages to survive for that long. And let's not forget that enemy infantry aren't the only things that can oppose it. It might dominate infantry, but that only means that an enemy vehicle would need to deal with the reaper instead. Which should aided by ranking up. Causing it to be able to squish infantry just overkills its anti-infantry roll. An instead better perk would be to aid it in it's weak spot. The reaper is a Specialist unit, that is already great at it's specialty; Specialist units don't need perks to their specialty cause they already do it well, and so need instead perks to what they lack(usually defense).

 

*Moblie Stealth Generator- (none) Actually I think that is a pretty good idea. If you run over enough people with the MSG, you should get a personal cloak for when you aren't deployed. Yea, it can't squish while stealthin, so if the driver is commando enough to destealth and squish.... let him get PC if he can do it enough!

 

*Banshee- Radar invis. Same complaint about GDI's aircraft. You really can't hide yourself in an aircraft. And even though the Banshee doesn't nearly sound as loud as an Orca, it is still hard to miss a flying thing on such small maps. If it is in range of your radar you probably already know that it is there regardless... so this type of perk is kinda dumb. Same as my bomber response.

 

*Harpy- Missile Upgrade This one I don't really know what to think. Missiles don't really seem to suit it but then again who knows? I'd actually consider a personal cloaking device for this if the Harpy was mainly effective against infantry and light vehicles (not so much structures aside from defenses) Cloaked air unit? No thank you. If it is to receive missiles, they'd have to be very splashy. It should, of course, replace the bullet ammo, giving the hind the DPS factor that the Orca Fighter gets from the getgo.

 

Got my responses in pink again :]

 

Anyone care to bring up other suggestions for debating; I'd love to debate now that I kinda returned to the forums

Edited December 4, 2011 by ryknow

[Guest r315r4z0r]

For the cloaking of the harpy. If it is only effective against units, then I don't see a problem with it going stealth. It would make it a neusence but it would also be a rare neusence since it would need to first level up to get that ability. I think it would be a good way to keep the game interesting.

 

I do believe it would be unfair if the unit is effective against structures, but if it is mainly for attacking units then I think it would be a good idea.

[Guest ryknow]

Sneak a CC in a stealthed Harpy+nuke beacon... =/

 

Sorry, no Stealth aircraft por favor.

[Enduar]

Bear in mind, it's likely no cyborg will be able to drive vehicles- they'll only be able to be passengers.