Map feedback

[Kai]

So, it's (probably) that time again, but I've been meaning to do this for a while but I never got round to doing it because I was too afraid to do so. But new community means new things, so I'll start by offering some opinions on TS:Rs maps. Everyone is free to chime in add their thoughts too. I will not be commenting on infantry only maps as they don't matter too much. In no particular order:

 

TS_Isles:

 

The only real complaint here is that the tiberium field tunnel for Nod is more of a hindrance than it is helpful to the team, GDI is able to effectively camp the tunnel with pretty much everything whereas Nod can barely assist due to the obstructive nature of said tunnel. The tunnel is also a means of attack for GDI, so they will almost always destroy any Harvesters that comes by. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but Harvester whoring is always a problem, especially if it is one-sided.

 

A small complaint would also be the tiberium on top of Nod's Helipad hill where Ghostalkers (and Umagons) can exploit this to their advantage. Mainly because he is able to effectively solo the Obelisk without it hitting him in a rather unfair manner. Unfortunately, the 'stairs' don't help because chances are you will die or fall off them due to no railings. (I have had more deaths from falling due to lack of safety features lag/warping) :

 

TS_Under

 

A fairly balanced map, both sides are subject to Harvester whoring which is to be expected given the nature of the map and its origins. The only minor change I would make is to rotate or move Nod's powerplant slightly so it isn't as vulnerable to sneak attacks. Consider that GDI's is protected by two Vulcans which will either kill or heavily damage you. This can even be reinforced by EMP mines to keep the Cyborgs away. The 'artillery island' I am not sure whether that's supposed to be a feature or not but it seems GDI can respond to that fairly well.

 

TS_Shallows

 

Going to be brutally honest, what happened here? The changes beforehand were evidently a quickfix which hasn't solved much. It's like someone spent 5 minutes placing Lasers all over the Nod base and decided it was "fixed". I'm not saying that they don't help because they do, but it just seems so rushed that the editor forgot to address other problems. The map is simply too big to enjoy, it's very frustrating trying to rush all over the place. The GDI base is also full of holes (mostly the rear) which Nod can exploit greatly. I see this map is disliked by a lot of people and it is usually skipped. I am unable to suggest anything other than it to be removed and perhaps reworked in the future.

 

TS_Snow

 

A great map, no real issues other than that Combat Cycles are able to sneak into the GDI base where the mutants reside. A missing blocker it seems.

 

TS_Crossroads

 

If it wasn't for the Nod Artillery, this would be heavily biased towards GDI. Still, it is a little biased towards them. Amphibious attacks are the most common and successful way to win for GDI and that should remain and be encouraged. However, it is almost impossible to stop them as it currently is because most Nod units are unable to do anything because the AAPC and HMLRS are able to get out of range and the only thing that stands before them is a small island with a single Laser. Some buildings such as the Construction Yard and Refinery are prime targets and even offer direct drop-offs for such attacks, which is almost impossible to replicate on the GDI side. Additionally, the Nod base is far too spread out so Nod has to run around all the time whereas GDI are a little cosy.

 

I feel these changes might make the map a little fairer:

• An infantry path connecting the Laser island (this'll eliminate an exploit at the same time)
• A slight rearrangement of the Nod base, so it isn't as vulnerable from all sides, primarily the rearer section which is, funny enough, Nod's heart
• A Laser between the Nod Construction Yard and Refinery, that way it's in line with GDI's Vulcans by theirs
• The Obelisk could be moved further forward, it's not helpful in its current position as GDI can easily slip by it
• Nod Artilleries should be required to come a little closer to the GDI base, although I'm not really sure how this can be worked in without creating odd blockers...
• OR, as a bit of a radical idea, how about base location swaps?

TS_GrandCanyon

 

Another fairly balanced map. Only change required is to make the Nod tiberium field a little bigger so it can be utilised correctly.

 

TS_Field

 

A simple map which needs no real change but I wonder whether GDI really needs the MK2 here. Nod lost their Artillery, should GDI be allowed the MK2 here? Ever since Nod lost their Artillery, GDI usually stomps Nod.

 

On a side note, what happened to Field2? That seemed like an interesting map, has it been permanently removed or will it return?

 

I have omitted a few maps as I don't have an opinion on them or haven't played them enough.

 

This is all I could think off the top of my head but hopefully this is in any way helpful. (:

 

 

 

[danpaul88]

Lots of interesting points here, I'll address some of them on a map-by-map basis;

 

TS_Isles:

 

The only real complaint here is that the tiberium field tunnel for Nod is more of a hindrance than it is helpful to the team, GDI is able to effectively camp the tunnel with pretty much everything whereas Nod can barely assist due to the obstructive nature of said tunnel. The tunnel is also a means of attack for GDI, so they will almost always destroy any Harvesters that comes by. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but Harvester whoring is always a problem, especially if it is one-sided.

 

A small complaint would also be the tiberium on top of Nod's Helipad hill where Ghostalkers (and Umagons) can exploit this to their advantage. Mainly because he is able to effectively solo the Obelisk without it hitting him in a rather unfair manner. Unfortunately, the 'stairs' don't help because chances are you will die or fall off them due to no railings. (I have had more deaths from falling due to lack of safety features lag/warping) :

Yes, the tiberium cave thing isn't really working very well at the moment. I think what might end up happening is that the tunnel from the GDI base gets re-routed around that cave rather than going through it and an extra tunnel opening added from the Nod base to get to the cave for defensive purposes. I'll suggest this to waffles next time I see him.

 

With regard to the hills and their new ramps, it was only ever meant to be a quick fix to alleviate the problem of people camping on those hills with discs etc. Ultimately the terrain needs re-shaping or a similar accessibility needs to exist on the GDI side for balance. Right now only the Nod side is accessible from the center of the map without aircraft.

 

TS_Under

 

A fairly balanced map, both sides are subject to Harvester whoring which is to be expected given the nature of the map and its origins. The only minor change I would make is to rotate or move Nod's powerplant slightly so it isn't as vulnerable to sneak attacks. Consider that GDI's is protected by two Vulcans which will either kill or heavily damage you. This can even be reinforced by EMP mines to keep the Cyborgs away. The 'artillery island' I am not sure whether that's supposed to be a feature or not but it seems GDI can respond to that fairly well.

The ability for GDI to just waltz into the Nod power plant has always bugged me and is something we need to look at... perhaps the tunnel entrance should be moved closer to the obelisk, or perhaps extended to come out between the pp and the hon (with a matching change on the GDI side to bring their tunnel out between the pp and barracks).

 

TS_Shallows

 

Going to be brutally honest, what happened here? The changes beforehand were evidently a quickfix which hasn't solved much. It's like someone spent 5 minutes placing Lasers all over the Nod base and decided it was "fixed". I'm not saying that they don't help because they do, but it just seems so rushed that the editor forgot to address other problems. The map is simply too big to enjoy, it's very frustrating trying to rush all over the place. The GDI base is also full of holes (mostly the rear) which Nod can exploit greatly. I see this map is disliked by a lot of people and it is usually skipped. I am unable to suggest anything other than it to be removed and perhaps reworked in the future.

The "lasers everywhere" is something I did as a quick band-aid fix to try and help Nod defend their ludicrously large base perimiter. We knew it wouldn't fix everything and it was only ever intended as a stop-gap whilst the map is significantly re-designed.

 

Here is one of my personal concepts for a shallows re-design, which I don't think we've ever shown publically before;

 

 

 

Was thinking about shallows and whipped this concept up... the idea is the big round "thing" is a craggy mountain, possibly even a volcano. The grey blobs in the water are rocks sticking out, possibly from a past eruption. Light blue water is shallow, the darker blue is deep.

 

Nod have colonised two islands off to the right of the map, with a smaller one being fortified with defences and the main island being home to their base. I see this map as being heavy on defences to compensate for the very open nature of the bases.

 

GDI have settled at the foot of the mountain on a narrow strip of land. Their base is enclosed in walls and gates with heavy usage of Vulcans, RPGs and SAMs around the perimeter.

 

I also gave both teams a silo and laid out some vehicle tracks to make the bases look like they've been there for a long time.

 

 

The dark green areas are "heavy" tiberium infestation, with lighter green being "normal" infestation. Heavy infestations will damage everything that touches it, including vehicles, acting as a natural map boundary

 

The river is intended to be in a valley, with the orange lines either side indicating the terrain slopes down from there, with a small tiberium patch in the valley with it.

 

 

 

 

On the face of it, it looks like Nod are much more open to attack than GDI... especially by sea. But note the shallow terrain all around the mountain... Nod can get land units round the back of the GDI base and wreak havoc if GDI aren't prepared.

 

Thus there are three main base->base routes for both teams, as well as innumerable air routes. HMRLS camping is mitigated by moving the CY to the center of the base, keeping buildings back from the shoreline and having laser turrets positioned all around the island

 

 

 

The overall width of the map should be about 60-70% of what it currently is to avoid excessively long journeys from base to base

 

 

TS_Snow

 

A great map, no real issues other than that Combat Cycles are able to sneak into the GDI base where the mutants reside. A missing blocker it seems.

I'll throw the missing blocker report at waffles for a hotfix. Thanks for posting that, we weren't aware it was missing.

 

TS_Crossroads

 

If it wasn't for the Nod Artillery, this would be heavily biased towards GDI. Still, it is a little biased towards them. Amphibious attacks are the most common and successful way to win for GDI and that should remain and be encouraged. However, it is almost impossible to stop them as it currently is because most Nod units are unable to do anything because the AAPC and HMLRS are able to get out of range and the only thing that stands before them is a small island with a single Laser. Some buildings such as the Construction Yard and Refinery are prime targets and even offer direct drop-offs for such attacks, which is almost impossible to replicate on the GDI side. Additionally, the Nod base is far too spread out so Nod has to run around all the time whereas GDI are a little cosy.

 

I feel these changes might make the map a little fairer:

• An infantry path connecting the Laser island (this'll eliminate an exploit at the same time)
• A slight rearrangement of the Nod base, so it isn't as vulnerable from all sides, primarily the rearer section which is, funny enough, Nod's heart
• A Laser between the Nod Construction Yard and Refinery, that way it's in line with GDI's Vulcans by theirs
• The Obelisk could be moved further forward, it's not helpful in its current position as GDI can easily slip by it
• Nod Artilleries should be required to come a little closer to the GDI base, although I'm not really sure how this can be worked in without creating odd blockers...
• OR, as a bit of a radical idea, how about base location swaps?

Artillery has and always will be problematic on maps as wide-open as this one.... we're kind of hoping that counter-artillery fire will help to ease the problem, but of course it's much easier to hit huge buildings than it is to hit an enemy artillery unit at range with indirect fire. I'm not sure swapping the base positions will do much good, it's still a wide open map at the end of the day and the sides of most buildings are pretty huge.

 

With the current map it might be useful to push the GDI WF further into the base, perhaps swapping it with the con yard (which, whilst important for repairs, isn't as crippling to lose as the wf) and maybe a similar change on the Nod side. This means the bulk of the Con Yard would help to shield the buildings further inside the base from artillery fire. On the other hand, the Nod and GDI wf become more vulnerable to APC attack (similar to the way ConYards are currently the main target for APC attack). What do you think of this?

 

I do like some of the suggestions you've raised here. With regard to the Obelisk, I'd personally like to see the Nod base have TWO obelisks to protect it, one in the position currently occupied by the WF to protect the approach via the tib field and frontal assault and another positioned closer to the current refinery location.

 

TS_GrandCanyon

 

Another fairly balanced map. Only change required is to make the Nod tiberium field a little bigger so it can be utilised correctly.

Not sure I understand this, what is the problem with the current size of the tiberium field?

 

TS_Field

 

A simple map which needs no real change but I wonder whether GDI really needs the MK2 here. Nod lost their Artillery, should GDI be allowed the MK2 here? Ever since Nod lost their Artillery, GDI usually stomps Nod.

 

On a side note, what happened to Field2? That seemed like an interesting map, has it been permanently removed or will it return?

 

I have omitted a few maps as I don't have an opinion on them or haven't played them enough.

 

This is all I could think off the top of my head but hopefully this is in any way helpful. (:

Actually, reducing the tech level of Field a bit and taking out the Mk2 might make sense... the Mk2 also tends to get stuck on the bridges a lot anyway so that kills two birds with one stone, I'll run this past Wally and see what he thinks. As for field 2, it's not been removed from the game but it's not in the current server rotation, you'd have to ask Triattack why that is but I think it's not playing as well as we hoped.

[Wallywood]

Very good feed back man. Also a lot of vaild points. We are going to reveiw these over and see what we can fix. Also just in time, map changes are something that we resently wanted to do anyway

[wolf]

Whatever happened to the newer versions of my maps? They fixed alot of things. Especially Snow and Isles

Edited February 14, 2015 by wolf

[GeneralCamo]

Very good feed back man.

She's a she, FYI.

 

Kai has always been excellent at picking out balance points, and finding excellent ways to fix them too. She actually has positions elsewhere in the C&C community, hence why I know her personally. We also played Team Fortress 2 once or twice.

 

 

 

Whatever happened to the newer versions of my maps? They fixed alot of things. Especially Snow and Isles

I think they were lost around the time you decided to make maps in the 3.4.4 editor, which broke everything.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Generalcamo

[wolf]

 

Very good feed back man.

She's a she, FYI.

 

Kai has always been excellent at picking out balance points, and finding excellent ways to fix them too. She actually has positions elsewhere in the C&C community, hence why I know her personally. We also played Team Fortress 2 once or twice.

 

 

 

Whatever happened to the newer versions of my maps? They fixed alot of things. Especially Snow and Isles

I think they were lost around the time you decided to make maps in the 3.4.4 editor, which broke everything.

 

 

Nothing was broken. I had them running in game without any issues. Someone else must have screwed something up....

[Kai]

That's a rather interesting concept for Shallows, it would be great to see that eventually.

 

The changes for Crossroads also seem promising. I did think about an extra Obelisk at one point but I wondered if it would be too much. Thinking about it now does make some more sense, although I do really like the repositioning for the WF and CY.

 

 

Not sure I understand this, what is the problem with the current size of the tiberium field?

 

I can't remember if that has been addressed already as I don't remember it much but from what I last saw was that it was far too small for an extra/multiple Harvesters. Sometimes the AI Harvester gets in the way and you have to wait and/or nudge it slightly, perhaps it could be extended all the way to that one further down from the base?

[Wallywood]

Whatever happened to the newer versions of my maps? They fixed alot of things. Especially Snow and Isles

We have plans to re make a lot of these maps but, Lately balance, new features and adding in other units have been on the top of our to do list. But if you'd like to make a few fan maps we'd always welcome them.

 

 

Very good feed back man.

She's a she, FYI.

My apologizes, didn't pay much attention there.

TS_Isles:

The only real complaint here is that the tiberium field tunnel for Nod is more of a hindrance than it is helpful to the team, GDI is able to effectively camp the tunnel with pretty much everything whereas Nod can barely assist due to the obstructive nature of said tunnel. The tunnel is also a means of attack for GDI, so they will almost always destroy any Harvesters that comes by. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but Harvester whoring is always a problem, especially if it is one-sided.

A small complaint would also be the tiberium on top of Nod's Helipad hill where Ghostalkers (and Umagons) can exploit this to their advantage. Mainly because he is able to effectively solo the Obelisk without it hitting him in a rather unfair manner. Unfortunately, the 'stairs' don't help because chances are you will die or fall off them due to no railings. (I have had more deaths from falling due to lack of safety features lag/warping) :

 

Agreed, But on this map I'd also like to an access inf. access in the back of the Nod base so they can fight of the HMRLS attacks from the river

 

TS_Under

A fairly balanced map, both sides are subject to Harvester whoring which is to be expected given the nature of the map and its origins. The only minor change I would make is to rotate or move Nod's powerplant slightly so it isn't as vulnerable to sneak attacks. Consider that GDI's is protected by two Vulcans which will either kill or heavily damage you. This can even be reinforced by EMP mines to keep the Cyborgs away. The 'artillery island' I am not sure whether that's supposed to be a feature or not but it seems GDI can respond to that fairly well.

 

The arty Island is a bit annoying on that map...but I think when we add Juggernauts it help balance that out a bit.

 

TS_Shallows

Going to be brutally honest, what happened here? The changes beforehand were evidently a quickfix which hasn't solved much. It's like someone spent 5 minutes placing Lasers all over the Nod base and decided it was "fixed". I'm not saying that they don't help because they do, but it just seems so rushed that the editor forgot to address other problems. The map is simply too big to enjoy, it's very frustrating trying to rush all over the place. The GDI base is also full of holes (mostly the rear) which Nod can exploit greatly. I see this map is disliked by a lot of people and it is usually skipped. I am unable to suggest anything other than it to be removed and perhaps reworked in the future.

Agreed the map needs a major make over. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing a small city in the middle with the river running along the out side and add in a few Nod surface spots in the GDI base to even it out.

 

TS_Crossroads

If it wasn't for the Nod Artillery, this would be heavily biased towards GDI. Still, it is a little biased towards them. Amphibious attacks are the most common and successful way to win for GDI and that should remain and be encouraged. However, it is almost impossible to stop them as it currently is because most Nod units are unable to do anything because the AAPC and HMLRS are able to get out of range and the only thing that stands before them is a small island with a single Laser. Some buildings such as the Construction Yard and Refinery are prime targets and even offer direct drop-offs for such attacks, which is almost impossible to replicate on the GDI side. Additionally, the Nod base is far too spread out so Nod has to run around all the time whereas GDI are a little cosy.

I feel these changes might make the map a little fairer:

• An infantry path connecting the Laser island (this'll eliminate an exploit at the same time)
• A slight rearrangement of the Nod base, so it isn't as vulnerable from all sides, primarily the rearer section which is, funny enough, Nod's heart
• A Laser between the Nod Construction Yard and Refinery, that way it's in line with GDI's Vulcans by theirs
• The Obelisk could be moved further forward, it's not helpful in its current position as GDI can easily slip by it
• Nod Artilleries should be required to come a little closer to the GDI base, although I'm not really sure how this can be worked in without creating odd blockers...
• OR, as a bit of a radical idea, how about base location swaps?

 

I really like the swapping sides idea. It would definitely limit the GDI water whoring that seems to make GDI the better team. Plus this map would be perfect if we added laser fences >

 

TS_Field

A simple map which needs no real change but I wonder whether GDI really needs the MK2 here. Nod lost their Artillery, should GDI be allowed the MK2 here? Ever since Nod lost their Artillery, GDI usually stomps Nod.

I think a lower tech would be perfect here.

 

 

On a side note, what happened to Field2? That seemed like an interesting map, has it been permanently removed or will it return?

I have omitted a few maps as I don't have an opinion on them or haven't played them enough.

This is all I could think off the top of my head but hopefully this is in any way helpful. (:

The issue with this map to me is that it doesn't fix, It gives off more of a C&C 3 feel. The think its the brightness and trees

[GeneralCamo]

Graphics can be fixed quickly, that is very easy to fix. It takes 5 minutes to change the lighting, or less depending on the size of the map.

[Wallywood]

Graphics can be fixed quickly, that is very easy to fix. It takes 5 minutes to change the lighting, or less depending on the size of the map.

Well with the everything going on and balance patches being our main focus we haven't really thought about it. Trust me we have BIG things coming soon.

[Timeaua]

If someone has some balance issues for TS_Tiber, TS_Dam and TS_OmegaCity just write it down and i will see what i can do.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Timeaua

[Wallywood]

If someone has some balance issues for TS_Tiber, TS_Dam and TS_OmegaCity just write it down and i will see what i can do.

The only issue I see is TS_Dam seems to be more Nod biased

[Timeaua]

 

If someone has some balance issues for TS_Tiber, TS_Dam and TS_OmegaCity just write it down and i will see what i can do.

The only issue I see is TS_Dam seems to be more Nod biased

 

well the juggernaut will solve this ;-) and hover mrls rush on nod silos is a quite effective tactic

[Kai]

I didn't include your maps purely because it was community made which I think the development team have little to no involvement(?) but off the top of my head:

 

TS_Tiber

 

Only problem I see is that Jumpjets are able to hug along Nod's concrete walls, making it very difficult to shoot them down, I actually wonder what this map would be like with air units. Good? Bad?

 

TS_Dam

 

I have seen Nod winning quite often since Banshees (and Harpies) are quite effective here. It's a shame that harvesting is pointless here because half lower section of the map gets little use/action. Perhaps this could be turned into blue tiberium? In fact, this could be a perfect area for lifeforms/mutants. Although I think the lifeforms aren't ready.

 

EDIT: For OmegaCity: I haven't tried that one extensively but I do think it's a rather nice map. (:

Edited February 14, 2015 by Kai

[Timeaua]

I didn't include your maps purely because it was community made which I think the development team have little to no involvement(?) but off the top of my head:

 

TS_Tiber

 

Only problem I see is that Jumpjets are able to hug along Nod's concrete walls, making it very difficult to shoot them down, I actually wonder what this map would be like with air units. Good? Bad?

Ive added a ladder at the Conyard, which leads to the roof of the Conyard. From there you can kill the Jumpjets camping over the wall with rocket soldiers or toxic soldiers