Balance MBT balance and strategies

[des1206]

Currently, the Light Tank DPS is inferior than the medium tank vs. medium armor (by a little), buildings (a little), and heavy armor (by a lot). Given its crappy 250/250 health, what if we actually made the light tank DPS better than the med in every aspect? It would encourage interesting strategies where light tanks are used in the field along with meds/APCs, using them as meat shields to stay alive while dishing out more damage. Or with Mobile Gaps where LTs can survive better. We can up the LT's price if you are worried about balance.

 

The idea came to me with the way MBTs are balanced in RA3:

http://www.gamereplays.org/redalert3/portals.php?show=page&name=red-alert-3-main-battle-tank-strategy-guide&st=2

 

Empire Tsunami ("light") tank had lowest health, but highest firing rate and DPS - great for hit and run.

 

Allied Guardian ("medium") tank had middle health, highest single shot damage, but lowest firing rate and DPS - great for kiting.

 

Soviet Hammer ("heavy") tank had the most health, middle firing rate and DPS. 

 

*Bonus: Going along with the above, what if we also gave the medium tank the slowest firing rate, but a higher damage per shot (same DPS)? It would encourage the med to use cover while reloading during tank battles to counter Soviet armor. Granted I know Ralism isn't Ra3lism and those MBTs also had different secondaries to balance things out.

Edited October 27, 2016 by des1206

[Pushwall]

Currently, the Light Tank DPS is inferior than the medium tank vs. ... buildings (a little),

 

 

 

 

Try again.

*Bonus: Going along with the above, what if we also gave the medium tank the slowest firing rate,

 

It... already does? Unless you're including every other vehicle in this and it's not just between the light and medium, in which case GG, the medium will need a reload time over 8.5 seconds to be slower than the V2, and consequently, over 310 damage per shot compared to its current 70. What is this supposed to accomplish besides making the medium tank a Grand Cannon in a crazy disguise?

[des1206]

 

Currently, the Light Tank DPS is inferior than the medium tank vs. ... buildings (a little),

 

wrong1.png

 

wrong2.png

 

wrong3.png

 

Try again.

*Bonus: Going along with the above, what if we also gave the medium tank the slowest firing rate,

 

It... already does? Unless you're including every other vehicle in this and it's not just between the light and medium, in which case GG, the medium will need a reload time over 8.5 seconds to be slower than the V2, and consequently, over 310 damage per shot compared to its current 70. What is this supposed to accomplish besides making the medium tank a Grand Cannon in a crazy disguise?

 

 Nice pic file names , I need to double check the damage. I recall it took slightly longer for the LT to kill both the heavy and bar versus the medium tank. Either way we know for sure it sucks against Heavy armor, maybe we could reconsider the heavy armor penalty?

 

For the bonus I meant give the med the slowest firing rate per shot amongst the MBTs, as it currently stands I think it has a faster firing rate than the heavy?

Edited October 27, 2016 by des1206

[Einstein]

Make the med fire so hard that it does a complete flip in place too

[Pushwall]

For the bonus I meant give the med the slowest firing rate per shot amongst the MBTs, as it currently stands I think it has a faster firing rate than the heavy?

 

Yeah, by almost double because, you know, it only has half as many barrels to reload. So raising the reload time to surpass the Heavy's would still mean giving it nearly twice as much damage - or enough to three-shot a tesla tank. From a cannon that is supposedly the same caliber as the Heavy Tank's or possibly less.

Also I've seen enough River Raid and Stormy Valley to know Light Tanks do not need to be the ultimate DPS machines to wreak more havoc on a base than mediums do. Because unlike mediums they can actually get behind the base, in some cases regardless of whether the flame towers are alive or not, allowing them to strike at buildings that the Soviets wouldn't have expected to need to defend yet - and obviously doing a much better job of it than Rangers would. If they're getting any buffs they'll be minor.

Or alternatively I could just debuff the other MBTs to further encourage use of fire support vehicles...

[des1206]

 

Yeah, by almost double because, you know, it only has half as many barrels to reload. So raising the reload time to surpass the Heavy's would still mean giving it nearly twice as much damage - or enough to three-shot a tesla tank. From a cannon that is supposedly the same caliber as the Heavy Tank's or possibly less.

 

No no no, I meant, when comparing fire rate per shell (Soviet fires 2 shells at a time).

 

But never mind on that, I realized the Heavy is already kinda doing what I want for the med -> high burst damage and slow reload, and magnifying that even further would make it hard for heavy to deal with light vehicles.

Edited October 27, 2016 by des1206

[Pushwall]

Yeah in that case the Medium is already the "slowest", popping out 1 shell per 1.9 seconds, while the Heavy/Mammoth tie at 1.625 seconds (but doing 2 shells at a time so they get so sit behind cover twice as long) and Light Tank spam at 1.16666~ seconds.

Either way we know for sure it sucks against Heavy armor, maybe we could reconsider the heavy armor penalty?

 

The different warheads are supposed to place the two vehicles into different roles, rather than leaving them as just 2 almost-identical units like in the Beta days (where not only did they have the same warhead, but the difference in their ROF, damage and movement speed were less distinguishable than now!) Light Tank's higher movement speed and DPS to unarmoured things make it a much better fit for hunting down a base-wrecking V2 or Tesla Tank (though in the case of the TT it's a suicide run as you will almost certainly lose your tank either before or after killing the TT), harassing buildings in the back of the enemy base, or just getting an anti-building rush out as soon in the match as humanly possible (and in that circumstance, the lower price means you can get a Sergeant for more building-wrecking fun which you would most likely not have the money for if you got a Medium), and higher rate of fire means many more chances to get those strong direct hits on infantry. Medium Tank's higher health and damage modifier versus strong armour make it more suited to holding the line in straight slugfests against heavy/mammoth tanks. Sending a medium to deal with a TT via the shortest route will likely get you kited and sending a light to push back mammoths will just get you pushed back.

[Mojoman]

Light tanks are awesome! Throw a little lag in there and people can't hit you like a hat on the ground.

[Alstar]

Clearing out info: in ra3 tsunami had lowest dps, hammer had highest and guardian was one in the middle.

 

About the lt, i find myself barely using those on maps others than seamist, camos and River raid. I dont personally find them better onnmost of maps where soviets can roll without fear of being flanked - in those moments i simply rely on my good old medmech.

[des1206]

Did some new tests with the LT, it seems that after recent patches, the LT does almost equilvient damage against medium armor and also buildings as the medium tank. I can only assume it is better at dealing with light vehicles and infantry given its high ROF. With only damage penalty against heavy armor vehicles like Mammoth, Ore Truck and MAD(?) .

 

So as long as the LT doesn't go against the 3 above, it is essentially a faster but less armored version of the medium tank that is better at dealing with light vehicles and infantry, and better at dodging as well. Although probably not the best choice at rushing coil given it gets one-shotted. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by des1206

[Pushwall]

Clearing out info: in ra3 tsunami had lowest dps, hammer had highest and guardian was one in the middle.

 

In RA1 however, the Light Tank actually does do more DPS than the Medium Tank by a small amount I guess even that and the higher speed (which = less damage taken in scatterspam fights) don't make up for having 100 less health and 0.75 less range in RAland though, since in the few online games I saw before I got bored of watching it, Allies always bought mediums and never lights.

 

Of course both of them pale in comparison to the heavy tank by lightyears because Westwood balance.

[Alstar]

Watching some AndrewFord, arent we? But yeah, in RAland only HT's and Meds matter. And sometimes V2, Yaks and cruisers.