A Path Beyond Artillery balance

[Chaos_Knight]

So, I will cut the introduction short and state the stuff as it is.

Most grief when it comes to map balance being scewed in Allied favor comes from a single unit being a pain in the butt. And said unit is Artillery plain and simple.

So let's start with the obvious and compare Arty to V2.
+ Higher mobility due to tracks > wheels.
+ Higher versatility due to higher ROF and ability to turn.
+ Higher sustained DPS on enemies due to less punishing misses.
+ Way better at self-defence: easy to kite slow large soviet vehicles and kill infantry pestering you at close range.
+ Higher indirect durability. They have the same 150/150 HP but this one is kinda funny. It takes 10 serg slugs to kill a V2 and 5 shock shots to kill an arty. Both take similar time but one is 150 no barracks CQC specialist and the other is "advanced" AT infantry. Also mechanics.
+ Smaller general profile.
+ Smaller projectile.
+ Prop heavy recent map philosophy makes indirect fire far more efficient, esp. combined with V2 projectile size.
+ Harder to track back due to small trail and large arc.

- Less accurate.
- Lesser alpha strike.
- Lesser splash AOE.

That list already doesn't seem right for a cheaper unit, does it?

Now let's take a look at what each of them have to deal with.
V2 has to deal with faster agile and sometimes stealthy enemies which makes higher punishment on each miss even worse. If infantry got too close to you, you better just run and hope that there would be something nearby to hit to use your AOE which would still not kill the attacker but at least would make killing them on foot easier. If ranger or whatever got too close, you are toast. If Phase fired at you from the side, you are toast.

Arty on the other hand has to deal with larger and slower targets most of the time. The only real threat to it are V2s on open terrain. As soon as terrain stops being open, arty gets an upper hand.
If soviet vehicle got close which is far less likely due to their lower speed, you just turn around and blast it in the face. Even though you would likely lose your arty, that guy is now crippled with mammy being the only exception. But where were your eyes if you let a huge mammoth tank to flank you? Seriously. Anyway, then you get on foot (serg, cap and RS all work fine here) and finish off that person vehicle making it 1 to 1 trade. And maybe kill the driver. So in economy terms you've lost 600 and killed 700-1500 worth of units (+ maybe driver).

A list of solutions (can be applied in any combination):
- Make arty 100/100 again and remove tesla resistance (why is that even a thing?). It already has more versatility and mobility than the soviet counterpart to defend itself. No need for it to be tanky also. This will also allow TTs to avoid being cripped by the return fire should they engage the arty.
- Reduce turn speed.
- Slightly reduce range.
- Make minimum gun elevaton higher so it can't fire at everything point-blank putting both it and V2 in the same boat when it comes to close range engagement.
- Just make it more expensive (700-800).

[Pushwall]

Weren't you complaining before about how artillery units aren't combat-viable enough? Why not boost the V2 in some way?  

The tiny profile might be a little less of an issue when the new model finally gets textured - obviously it won't be V2-size but it'll help, compared to the current arty it's a good couple of metres longer thanks to the stabilisers on the back, slightly taller, and the base of its barrel is a bigger target.

The "tesla resistance" is a thing across all light vehicles that don't have some kind of stealth capability - which for the Allies is just the Ranger, ST, MRJ and Arty. It was really intended for the Ranger to give it more of a chance against shocks in close quarters. Since the Tesla Tank's unique actually-tesla-resistant armour doesn't really have much reason to exist (it only really matters if a spy steals a TT which, let's be fair, doesn't happen much because its frailness makes it nigh impossible to get out of the Soviet base anyway) I could replace that with a special armour for Rangers and return actual light vehicles like the Arty to being treated normally.

Surely reduced range would hurt it more in the open than it would in the enclosed spaces it dominates in, in which it can't even make use of its current maximum range?

More sluggish rotation will, again, significantly hurt it in the open as turning and moving is pretty much your only way to not get your shit pushed in by V2s that have line of sight to you.

So I will probably just go with no tesla resistance, maybe stricter elevation, and a 750-900 price tag. Allies need to use more money anyway, right? (Which is part of why MGGs got their price doubled, the other part being that having a see-thru sphere and enough health to survive a stiff breeze makes them so much more viable than earlier versions.)

[NoSpoons]

Simple solution, Buff the V2 give it a faster fire rate than the artillery, if its not shooting at least as fast as a Lt i will be disappoint.

In all honesty tho the perfect example of this imbalance would be Guard_Duty, the soviet V2s usually get their shit mixed by artillery because of that goddamn hill in the allied base the Soviets cant hit back effectively, and that's often the case with other maps. 

I suppose in the end i agree to artillery having a much greater usefulness, however nothing kills a long bow better than a V2 Rocket to the face. So does it get bonus points for doubling as the most expensive RPG trooper in soviet Russia?

[Raap]

If you're thinking Artillery is too powerful then regardless of whether or not I agree with that the answer cannot be to buff V2 damage across the board. Any more damage from such units would mean their burst potential becomes very hard to react to and matches could end a lot sooner (or worse; matches could cause server depletion due to early loss of key structures).

But I think they are in a decent spot at the moment. Maybe V2's could do a bit more damage to vehicles to compensate for the longer reload, movement handling, and projectile avoid-ability. But in terms of structure damage I think these units reached a ceiling. 

Lastly, let's not have map-specific balance bleed into game balance. I'm guessing this topic came to be after a RiverRaid match. If so, the problem would be with that map and how it favors camping.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Raap

[des1206]

Can we really not give breaks to wheeled vehicles? If the V2 can get to a full-stop its secondary might be much easier to use to arch-over obstacles.

[NodGuy]

26 minutes ago, des1206 said:

Can we really not give breaks to wheeled vehicles? If the V2 can get to a full-stop its secondary might be much easier to use to arch-over obstacles.

I wish! Being able to press 'Q' to come to a full stop would make my V2 life such easier. Even having the same option for the Artillery would be sweet. 

[Raap]

Adding something like a slow down and full stop in ~two seconds would require the physics model to be updated. I'm not sure how difficult that is, but I do see obvious benefits from having it, for wheeled physics. Something like that would ideally be trigger by double tapping the S key (re-bindable). Overlap with existing known key functions like Q would cause problems.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Raap

[des1206]

Can we make the arty a bit worse at hitting vehicles? In Ra1 the arty is anti-infantry/building, while the V2 was good against everything but clunkier to use and misses easily. I guess the idea is that siege vehicles that are easier to use and higher ROF should have a bit less of a DPS and/or range.

PS I know the arty was not balanced well in Ra and didn't have its current range.

Edited May 8, 2017 by des1206

[Pushwall]

9 hours ago, des1206 said:

Can we make the arty a bit worse at hitting vehicles? In Ra1 the arty is anti-infantry/building, while the V2 was good against everything but clunkier to use and misses easily. I guess the idea is that siege vehicles that are easier to use and higher ROF should have a bit less of a DPS and/or range.

PS I know the arty was not balanced well in Ra and didn't have its current range.

They both used the exact same warhead in RA (arty had better DPS but zero opportunity to use it since WW logic dictates that an "artillery" has about the same operational range as MBTs and that a prone half-naked commando can survive more bullets than a self-propelled howitzer), so any difference in how good they were at killing things was purely based on enemies' dodging ability - which, granted, V2s dealt with better due to their projectiles being twice as fast.

However we can't just magically make the arty's accuracy change depending on what it's targeting, and reducing its projectile speed ala RA means that its arc changes - which is a sacred cow that I will not touch, as the arty/V2 arcs are probably the most important arcs in the game and I don't want to make everyone relearn how to aim them. They're still using Gamma values for a reason

[Chaos_Knight]

A random idea A4R91N and I came up with while playing today.

What about buffing V2 a bit by allowing it to carry a passenger? That person could try and defend the thing to limited degree without making V2 too strong. Could help for some of the low-budget/low-tech situations.

[Pushwall]

Well it certainly has room in the cab for that. Back when Fucking Everything had passengers I was considering giving the Artillery and V2 a passenger slot but then realised it wouldn't make sense on the Artillery and thus decided neither of them should have it. Since they're so drastically different anyway, I guess it could work out.

Then again, V2 is not that much faster than a sprinting soldier and it has to slow down a lot when turning anyway, so why not just sprint alongside/behind it like the Mammoth who was also recently suggested for a passenger slot? Only difference there is that its profile is harder to hide behind and it can't take hits like a Mammoth, I guess.

And given the shock/kov OP passenger issues that prevented Rangers from becoming a mainstream Soviet unit, I feel like this would help in high-budget/high-tech just as much if not more than at lower ends. Though certainly nowhere near the degree that Rangers would  

[Raap]

On overhaul re-balancing Pushwaffles raises an excellent point, they should be avoid where possible, but mainly because it is a known point of frustration in games if players have to constantly re-learn their preferred gameplay style. 

In W3D's case, quite a few other means of balancing are available, means which do not affect the general use of a weapon, vehicle, or character.

[NoSpoons]

What if we make the V2's projectile track? eh? eh?

Would definitely help with balance 

[Raap]

Just now, NoSpoons said:

What if we make the V2's projectile track? eh? eh?

Would definitely help with balance 

Nah, make it go straight up and then split into a multi-missile. Much moar balans.

[Pushwall]

1 hour ago, Raap said:

Nah, make it go straight up and then split into a multi-missile. Much moar balans.

This was actually a canned lolmap idea - though TS-esque multi-missiles as actual weapons instead of cinematics are kinda not possible so it just fired a shotgun spray of 8 arcing v2s and was called the "V2 Onager".

[Raap]

4 hours ago, Pushwall said:

This was actually a canned lolmap idea - though TS-esque multi-missiles as actual weapons instead of cinematics are kinda not possible so it just fired a shotgun spray of 8 arcing v2s and was called the "V2 Onager".

I know it's not in-the-box functionality but the code guys could probably hijack the C4 logic to instead of becoming the 'placed object' near the end of the projectile lifetime, it'd actually turn into an ammunition type. But hey, off-topic and completely pointless! 

Splitting ammunition would be cool to have as a W3D engine feature nonetheless.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Raap

[Pushwall]

Just came up with a different way of solving the tesla resistance shenanigans: giving the Artillery (and possibly V2) the same "stealth light" armour class as the Phase/MGG, so it takes 50% more damage from TTs instead of 25% less, causing it to be one-shot through its 150/150 health. This would also make mechanics repair the arty at a 33% slower rate. But it means we can keep the TT's special armour and make it even more Tesla-resistant (possibly even IMMUNE to shock troopers) so it can actually be worthwhile - at the very least allowing a spy to force enemy shocks to waste money on something else if they want to prevent it from escaping.

However, I get the feeling tesla resistance isn't anywhere near the main problem that the arty has if it's so troublesome on maps where tesla weapons don't even exist (Canyon River, River Raid, Guard the River Duty) or are too expensive to invest in unless you're already ahead (Metro, Under)...

[SirJustin90]

On 5/8/2017 at 2:08 AM, des1206 said:

Can we really not give breaks to wheeled vehicles? If the V2 can get to a full-stop its secondary might be much easier to use to arch-over obstacles.

This is the biggest thing I find as well. The V2 having to constantly adjust.... or jump out then back in to keep it's aim steady is painful to say the least. Not to mention it "slides" more on uneven surfaces than treads seem to.

[NodGuy]

1 minute ago, SirJustin90 said:

This is the biggest thing I find as well. The V2 having to constantly adjust.... or jump out then back in to keep it's aim steady is painful to say the least. Not to mention it "slides" more on uneven surfaces than treads seem to.

Something definitely needs to be done. I'm sick of exiting and entering my V2, even on flat terrain, just to get the aim over the target (usually base defenses). The same goes for the Artillery, which seriously needs its left and right turret pivot feature back.

[Pushwall]

On 5/8/2017 at 0:49 AM, NoSpoons said:

In all honesty tho the perfect example of this imbalance would be Guard_Duty, the soviet V2s usually get their shit mixed by artillery because of that goddamn hill in the allied base the Soviets cant hit back effectively, and that's often the case with other maps. 

Well, on Guard Duty specifically, I can tell you artillery are going to have a bad time in the near future.  

[NoSpoons]

1 hour ago, Pushwall said:

Well, on Guard Duty specifically, I can tell you artillery are going to have a bad time in the near future.  

ooooohhhh I'm so excited  do the soviets finally get migs?

On 2017-5-11 at 5:37 AM, SirJustin90 said:

This is the biggest thing I find as well. The V2 having to constantly adjust.... or jump out then back in to keep it's aim steady is painful to say the least. Not to mention it "slides" more on uneven surfaces than treads seem to.

I remember someone earlier suggesting that the v2 have the capability to deploy with the 'Q' key

if this is implemented so that the weapon angle does not change we might have a solution at hand

[Pushwall]

35 minutes ago, NoSpoons said:

ooooohhhh I'm so excited  do the soviets finally get migs?

It's a tech level 1 map, of course not.

[harvester]

13 hours ago, Pushwall said:

It's a tech level 1 map, of course not.

Yaks? That thing did appear on the very first soviet mission and the second one (where the map Guard_Duty is based on).

[NoSpoons]

9 hours ago, harvester said:

Yaks? That thing did appear on the very first soviet mission and the second one (where the map Guard_Duty is based on).

nyeeeeaaah what about that pushy? give us yaks!

[NodGuy]

Yaks? On GuardDuty? I doubt that. Maybe the hill in front of the Allied base is going to be lowered/removed?

[des1206]

As totd demonstrated in another video, V2s in skilled hands are pretty effectively vs. Allied vehicles/LBs. That's one advantage the arty doesn't have. 

[Pushwall]

2 hours ago, des1206 said:

As totd demonstrated in another video, V2s in skilled hands are pretty effectively vs. Allied vehicles/LBs. That's one advantage the arty doesn't have. 

Yeah now go back and look at how much of that portion of the video is on Coastal Influence and Seamist. CI is pretty much heaven for defensive V2s because Allied boats are huge targets and the island is a really tight chokepoint that can be faced by V2s on a service depot. And on Seamist Allies don't have many vehicles to retaliate against V2s with.

Meanwhile arty's strangehold extends to pretty much every map that has a slow economy. Hence a price hike should affect it a lot on those while barely hurting it on the high-income maps.

For Seamist, I could add that "use Radar Dome to buy expensive tank" thing I was going on about before to give Allies a chance to get a couple more tanks to fend off V2s with.