A Path Beyond Pricing

[Coolrock]

Last one for tonight!

What happened to unit pricing and money in general? I found it so odd getting my first Ore Truck dump after returning all these years, only to get $350. I decided to check the PT, and noticed a lot had changed.

Ore Trucks are only $700 now? That seems a bit crazy to me. I see plenty of people buy an Ore Truck right away, and by the time you get your next dump, the game has already entered end game. What I mean is, it feels like there's no early game now, minus the usual infantry rush to the other teams base. This has also changed, as you now start with $350. This leads to people rushing with Rocket Soldiers early on, which also means that you hardly ever see V2/Light Tank rushes anymore. Maybe this is what people prefer now, but I personally don't.

I've also noticed that Volkov now has a price of $1800. I'd assume because of his recent weapon changes, but even then it doesn't seem he needs such a high price. For $1800, he shouldn't be killed in a single head shot (which I thought he had protection for at one point). Seems a little steep to me. Tanya also remaining at $1200, while he's at $1800 seems odd. Tanya can destroy an entire building in 30 seconds, while killing most things coming her way (depending on the player), while Volkov has been made to be more of a sniper now (I haven't had much success).

I  liked the pricing how it was before. What're your thoughts? 

[Pushwall]

Dumps are only 350 now because you can actually get income from things other than dumps. Like the ore silo or damaging/killing enemy units. If dumps were still 700 combined with having global ore silos and combat credits, it'd be even harder to run out of money. Meanwhile, Ore Trucks got their price halved to match the halved dumps. I still don't see why "people actually buy this unit that used to just look pretty on the sidebar and get you mocked for misclicks" is a bad thing, but I understand about the earlygame/lategame thing - perhaps we can return OTs to 1400 but also make players earn twice as much when harvesting.

Starting credits exist to allow the initial infantry rush to exist. Do you remember what happened in pre-Gamma on maps that had base defenses? That's right, everyone just sat in their base for 2 whole minutes twiddling their thumbs or maybe trying to form a totem pole in the corner of the WF, because you can't really do anything when your only option is riflemen and there's nothing exposed to shoot. That's boring. Sure, some people still do that depending on the situation and how scared they are of risking their KD, but it's not even close to a 100% thing anymore.

With the $350 starting credits, silo income that equates to $120 per minute, and $350 dump, assuming you save your money (which does not necessarily entail twiddling your thumbs) or are able to cause enough havoc with your purchased gren/captain to pay for the cost of the unit, you will end up with about $950 when that dump comes in. Which allows Soviets to get tanks. I can't speak for much older versions but my memories of 1.4 consist largely of Allies winning a very large percentage of their games, because $1 starting credit + $700 dump = everyone on Allied team could buy light tanks/artilleries and nobody on Soviet team could buy anything that stops light tanks unless the whole Soviet team was perfectly coordinated with their donations (only being able to donate for one or two heavy tanks is still not going to do a damn thing against 5-6 lights). But who knows, maybe this would not have been such a major issue if Soviets had a rocket soldier back then. Or maybe it wouldn't have helped because tanks back then had ridiculous splash damage and a ridiculous range advantage over infantry.

Volkov's price has been fluctuating above the "old" 1200 for a decade now - it was 1500 in 1.2, 1800 in 1.4 and Gamma, 1500 for large parts of Delta, and 1800 now. And the whole time he has consistently been one-shot headshot sniper bait (aka "making the sniper actually worth buying"), except in Gamma where snipers didn't exist. I don't see how any of this is "recent" stuff and he's been deserving of his high price for most of the way:

• I can't speak for 1.2 as I was not around for it, but given that his price was lower than later incarnations, his stats were mostly identical to his 1.4 iteration, and shocky had less range than in 1.4 (see the shocky thread), I don't exactly imagine Volkov was viewed unfavourably by those who used him. Perhaps Volkov aficionado @Voe can weigh in.
• 1.4 Volkov was effectively a shocky with worse damage, but better speed+range+durability and the ability to regen.
• Gamma Volkov was fucking broken because he was basically the same as in 1.4 except he also had ENGINEER C4. So since his AT cannon could hurt buildings enough for the C4 to take them out, he was effectively a Tanya who didn't have to worry about AP mines, and this was in combination with his old status of being able to put the hurt on vehicles and infantry and regenerate in the field, which was a unique ability for him at the time. Oh and I guess he had binoculars too, because accidentally selecting the wrong weapon on a unit who needs to constantly switch I guess constitutes some sort of balancing act for the rest of his bullshit? (Note that back then, binoculars couldn't even see unit healthbars or make radar markers, so all they could do besides throw off weapon switchers was zoom in.)
• Delta Volkov, up until the attempts to rebalance him about 2 months ago, was basically 1.4 Volkov again, except regen wasn't exclusive to him anymore. But he still rendered the Shock Trooper almost entirely obsolete, which is what led to the attempts to fix him.

The only time I'd say he's been undeserving of his price tag was in early iterations of the attempt to fix him a few months back; in my first attempts, he ended up being a total flop who really had no advantage over the shocky except range.

And this whole time (obviously excluding the failed rebalancings), he has consistently been a much more versatile unit than Tanya, who is completely helpless against vehicles (except maybe a V2 that she's able to sneak up and plant C4 on), completely helpess against any infantry that outrange her in the field (which is most of them), cannot do anything against buildings unless they are de-mined, and is more fragile than her pre-Delta iterations - she can actually die in 1v1 situations now.

[OrangeP47]

Weighing in on the "lack of early game".  I still see plenty of light rushes, and plenty of v2.  I will agree that v2s are a little less common than they used to be, but I'd say that has more to do with people getting better at avoiding v2s and learning how to take them out as time as gone on than anything.  Also people finally realizing to ignore heavies and go right for the V2 first.

[Coolrock]

18 hours ago, Pushwall said:

The last few days, I've seen plenty of games start with 2 or more people getting an OT. In bigger games with 20+ players is where it really starts to show. The $700 price tag allows a team to get a big advantage with money early on. Of course, this is based on who's on your team. Most maps that I've seen this happen on, only one side is doing it, while the other isn't. Along with this, donations also help a ton by giving all your attackers more cash to keep pumping tanks out. I know that a few matches isn't enough to make a case with, but just stating what I've seen so far.

On the point with people sitting around, that was only an issue when there wasn't a "leader" figure on the team. Back in my time playing with people like Chemwarss, Ididyamom, and so on, we would rush every single match no matter what. We'd get everyone to follow us, and normally get a few extra credits attack the enemy base, or even take some things out in the process. This is again based on who's on your team, so take it with a grain of salt. 

I agree that before in the old days, the $700 was good for Allies, while Soviets only had V2s, Allies were on the field with Rocket Soldiers, LTs, and ARTs. It's crazy to think that Soviets still managed to win matches on places like NBNW, yet it did happen. I'd say with changes that have been made since I was last here, that shouldn't be an issue anymore.

I do recall the last price change before I left was the $1500 point, which is what my comment was focused on about his price changing again. I didn't play much of Gamma at all, so I don't recall the C4 or any of that. Glad that they're gone! On a serious note, it seems a little crazy that he can survive a fall from a Helicopter with hardly any health missing. I actually saw three fly into the Allied base, get shot down, and then ran around into buildings like nothing had happened. 

Tanya can't be that bad, since I still see them destroying buildings and taking out tons of infantry. Even refilling constantly and planting C4 on tanks when a rush comes in (when the hell did that happen?).

12 hours ago, OrangeP47 said:

Recently I've noticed a mix. This again falls on who's on your team. When you have players like Fraydo, SilverLight, etc., you can get people to follow you and form a rush. 

It's also weird seeing LTs cost $800 now, and MTs being $900, while HTs are still $950.