Awesome How Westwood could have made Renegade?

[buttnutella]

Wow look what Renegade could have been? Never seen this video before so excuse me if it's been posted but man Westwood had some great ideas for this game. Look at some of those models, textures, lighting & effects. Looks unreal to me today but would have been mind-blowing back then. They even had plans to have Tesla Tanks in there?

Man this makes me think what Renegade could have been like now after all these years of playing & loving it the way it is.

Never thought I would wonder about this to be honest as I randomly came across this video since I don't usually seek out gaming videos but thought this was neat.

[TeamWolf]

This is where they were taking things, not cut content from actual Renegade. As the video states in the title, this is actually Renegade 2, which would of told the story for the transition from Red Alert 2 to Tiberian Dawn, this is also why there are RA2 buildings and vehicles.

[buttnutella]

16 hours ago, TeamWolf said:

This is where they were taking things, not cut content from actual Renegade. As the video states in the title, this is actually Renegade 2, which would of told the story for the transition from Red Alert 2 to Tiberian Dawn, this is also why there are RA2 buildings and vehicles.

Wow that sounds so awesome, I would have loved to play that! Looks intense to be honest & not at all what I'd expect from Renegade but in the best way possible.

Oh I didn't even know there was supposed to be a Renegade 2 thought I probably did hear some rumors by word of mouth back in the day so my mistake for thinking that was supposed to be the original Renegade.

Edited August 18, 2020 by buttnutella

[neko soldier]

I remember some stuff I've seen throughout the years about Renegade 2. I'll just do it as a list.

1. Takes place between RA2 and TD.

2. 3 Factions: Allies, Soviet Remnants, and Scavengers

3. Soviet faction led by Premier Romanov's brother

4. Scavengers are an early version of Nod's army (logo is a sickle turning into a scorpion's tail, heavily damaged soviet statue with only an arm raised up like a Hand of Nod)

5. Scrin were called to Earth by Soviet Tesla Reactors from RA2

6. Yuri was a member of the Brotherhood of Nod

7. Game was canceled in favor of Battlefield 1942

[buttnutella]

3 minutes ago, neko soldier said:

1. Takes place between RA2 and TD.

2. 3 Factions: Allies, Soviet Remnants, and Scavengers

3. Soviet faction led by Premier Romanov's brother

4. Scavengers are an early version of Nod's army (logo is a sickle turning into a scorpion's tail, heavily damaged soviet statue with only an arm raised up like a Hand of Nod)

5. Scrin were called to Earth by Soviet Tesla Reactors from RA2

6. Yuri was a member of the Brotherhood of Nod

Sounds absolutely massive! Can't believe they had something so elaborately deep with the entire story being lodged in between 2 games bridging the stories together to make more sense of the C&C universe.

They were going to have a 3rd faction also? Would have loved to see how that could turn out in multiplayer servers. Probably something like Planetside I imagine.

7 minutes ago, neko soldier said:

7. Game was canceled in favor of Battlefield 1942

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

EA is the Devil indeed

[neko soldier]

29 minutes ago, buttnutella said:

 

EA is the Devil indeed

Can't exactly blame them since Renegade bombed and BF1942 looked promising with the Wake Island map as that was the 1st map in the entire franchise. Also Westwood was planning quite a few things like a 5 faction C&C 3 and a C&C MMO, as well as their only MMO Earth and Beyond (which also bombed and killed Westwood since EA has some kind of a 2 strike rule for studios)

Edited August 18, 2020 by neko soldier

[buttnutella]

6 minutes ago, neko soldier said:

Can't exactly blame them since Renegade bombed and BF1942 looked promising with the Wake Island map as that was the 1st map in the entire franchise.

Ah I see, I understand. Battlefield 1942 is what started the entire franchise isn't it? They did become extremely successful & for good reason I'll give them that.

Just looked up that map & thought that was really cool, wish they would remake that map in another game. Island maps are my favorite. I wish Renegade had more than that one Island map lol

Still sucks for me having been a Renegade fan originally to find out rumors were true & there was truly a Renegade 2 in the works. What a game it would have been indeed.

I didn't get into the Battlefield series until BF Bad Company 2 then BF3.

[NoSoldier]

On 8/18/2020 at 10:06 AM, neko soldier said:

5 faction C&C 3 and a C&C MMO

Just dropping this here (back on my old computer I had multiple gigs of this "old stuff" flying around - it's old and someone has posted it somewhere in our forums as well, but yeah):

 

[Threve]

On 8/17/2020 at 6:30 AM, buttnutella said:

Man this makes me think what Renegade could have been like now after all these years of playing & loving it the way it is.

Never thought I would wonder about this to be honest as I randomly came across this video since I don't usually seek out gaming videos but thought this was neat.

To think about Renegade 2 we have to think about the possibility of Westwood Studios never being acquired by EA along with the time period (Early to late 2000's) that Westwood Studios was in at the time. Renegade was ultimately a market failure. While the title I don't believe lost them alot of money (if any) it didn't live up to the Halo/Half-Life expectations EA was trying to shell out for it or get close to it. 

What this means is if Westwood Studios wasn't owned by EA and released Renegade the way it come out (since this is the only reference we have at the moment) I would imagine that Red Alert 2 would have followed definitely. After that Tiberium Twilight (CnC3). At the time period of CnC3 (2007-08) the market for RTS games would have shifted and not been as profitable. Coupled with increased competition, the emergence of more profitable mobile games/Iphone, the Great Recession and the explosion of FPS Online Multiplayer at the time period this may have forced Westwood studios to have made Renegade 2. I also believe that at this point they would have been suffering funding and eventually be bought out due to the decrease in sales for RTS games.. this might lead Westwood to have made more experimental games (I.E. this is how we get to the possibility of Renegade 2).

Renegade 2 story and concepts could have and be anything honestly. I know we have some pre production stuff above.. but when Renegade 1 was released there was never going to be a Renegade 2 immediately due to failing sales along with pressure for RA2. However, Renegade 2 being made in this timeline at or around 2009-2010 would most likely have included a closer focus on multiplayer (With Campaign style games starting to fall out of favor due to the popularity arising out of Call of Duty titles at this period and such.) The story would most likely have focused on a recent title or upcoming title to help boost sales in both categories (Such as RA3 or CNC3.. having a campaign returning to Red Alert universe, then releasing a red alert game would have helped players remember or get hyped about RA3. This same tactic was used by EA with  the "Tiberium" FPS and CNC4)

Assuming Westwood studios survived the great recession and managed to fend off giant corporations like EA/Blizzard/Activision from being bought out or killed out right.. I would say that the future of Westwood Studios 2014-2020 would have followed more and more into a focus on Pay per Play or Battle Royal/Freemuim games like Fortnight. It's the only way they could have survived.

Ultimately, the things we know Westwood Studios for in terms of quality like Deep stories, Campaigns, RTS Bangers, would have been snuffed out come 2015 at the latest. The market has instead turned to Mobile Phone gameplay, RTS games have all but died, nearly all games only come from massive corporations, the games today are either a FPS style type battle royal game (Fortnight) or a mobile game or an open world game such as Forza Horizon/GTA.. Games that Westwood never developed or had any experience (or could Renegade ever really fit into properly). Westwood Studios primarily made RTS games. That's what they're known for best. I believe Renegade 2 at this time period (2012 - 2016?) would have been a rushed mess to make up for sinking profits. If not, I believe Westwood to ensure the game was great quality would have hired more FPS developers/specialists to create a banger. Who knows, maybe after Renegade 2 Westwood would start to focus on FPS's instead of the failing RTS market..

 I don't believe Westwood Studios would have survived at all today and if so they would be vastly different, compromising what they're known for in terms of quality. Their peak years of 1990-2005 (Basically their existence) were the years where Gameplay was considered a story, the environment expected quality long gameplay, and games were played on PC primarily (90's). Everything that isn't today.

[buttnutella]

1 hour ago, Threve said:

To think about Renegade 2 we have to think about the possibility of Westwood Studios never being acquired by EA along with the time period (Early to late 2000's) that Westwood Studios was in at the time. Renegade was ultimately a market failure. While the title I don't believe lost them alot of money (if any) it didn't live up to the Halo/Half-Life expectations EA was trying to shell out for it or get close to it. 

I also subconsciously felt something like this at the time of the release of Halo so it's crazy for me to read as a fact.

 

 

1 hour ago, Threve said:

What this means is if Westwood Studios wasn't owned by EA and released Renegade the way it come out (since this is the only reference we have at the moment) I would imagine that Red Alert 2 would have followed definitely. After that Tiberium Twilight (CnC3). At the time period of CnC3 (2007-08) the market for RTS games would have shifted and not been as profitable. Coupled with increased competition, the emergence of more profitable mobile games/Iphone, the Great Recession and the explosion of FPS Online Multiplayer at the time period this may have forced Westwood studios to have made Renegade 2. I also believe that at this point they would have been suffering funding and eventually be bought out due to the decrease in sales for RTS games.. this might lead Westwood to have made more experimental games (I.E. this is how we get to the possibility of Renegade 2).

Renegade 2 story and concepts could have and be anything honestly. I know we have some pre production stuff above.. but when Renegade 1 was released there was never going to be a Renegade 2 immediately due to failing sales along with pressure for RA2. However, Renegade 2 being made in this timeline at or around 2009-2010 would most likely have included a closer focus on multiplayer (With Campaign style games starting to fall out of favor due to the popularity arising out of Call of Duty titles at this period and such.) The story would most likely have focused on a recent title or upcoming title to help boost sales in both categories (Such as RA3 or CNC3.. having a campaign returning to Red Alert universe, then releasing a red alert game would have helped players remember or get hyped about RA3. This same tactic was used by EA with  the "Tiberium" FPS and CNC4)

Assuming Westwood studios survived the great recession and managed to fend off giant corporations like EA/Blizzard/Activision from being bought out or killed out right.. I would say that the future of Westwood Studios 2014-2020 would have followed more and more into a focus on Pay per Play or Battle Royal/Freemuim games like Fortnight. It's the only way they could have survived.

Ultimately, the things we know Westwood Studios for in terms of quality like Deep stories, Campaigns, RTS Bangers, would have been snuffed out come 2015 at the latest. The market has instead turned to Mobile Phone gameplay, RTS games have all but died, nearly all games only come from massive corporations, the games today are either a FPS style type battle royal game (Fortnight) or a mobile game or an open world game such as Forza Horizon/GTA.. Games that Westwood never developed or had any experience (or could Renegade ever really fit into properly). Westwood Studios primarily made RTS games. That's what they're known for best. I believe Renegade 2 at this time period (2012 - 2016?) would have been a rushed mess to make up for sinking profits. If not, I believe Westwood to ensure the game was great quality would have hired more FPS developers/specialists to create a banger. Who knows, maybe after Renegade 2 Westwood would start to focus on FPS's instead of the failing RTS market..

 I don't believe Westwood Studios would have survived at all today and if so they would be vastly different, compromising what they're known for in terms of quality. Their peak years of 1990-2005 (Basically their existence) were the years where Gameplay was considered a story, the environment expected quality long gameplay, and games were played on PC primarily (90's). Everything that isn't today.

What you're basically saying is there would probably not have been much of a chance either way, huh? Thank you for breaking this down and explaining it to me in great detail. I had no idea about most of it. What a bumpy long ride that must have been for Westwood. Apparently they were through a lot more than I thought. I just assumed EA was being the profiteering devil as it usually was.

Although it's still a shame because I'm still very much a fan of Renegade but I do feel somewhat better knowing there wasn't all that much that could have been done either way no matter how hard they tried.

I only wish Westwood was always able to stand on their own. Such a unique company with unique visions. It's basically unheard of to play an RTS game as an FPS/3PS but they made that a possibility. EA are still jerks though.

[buttnutella]

9 hours ago, NoSoldier said:

Just dropping this here (back on my old computer I had multiple gigs of this "old stuff" flying around - it's old and someone has posted it somewhere in our forums as well, but yeah):

 

The more I read & look into it the more I realize all of the slept on possibilities that C&C games could have if EA was just a bit different. Honestly just super sad because there was apparently a ton more in store than I could have ever imagined there to be in the first place. *sigh*

Edited August 19, 2020 by buttnutella

[buttnutella]

Thank you guys for letting me know all of this info by the way, it's very interesting to learn. I really appreciate you all informing me on why things turned out the way they did. I probably otherwise would never have been able to figure it out.

[Threve]

8 hours ago, buttnutella said:

What you're basically saying is there would probably not have been much of a chance either way, huh?

With EA having purchased Westwood, yeah. Definitely not. I would even go as far to say Renegade was the product of EA trying out something to earn more profit. If there was a chance it would have to have been due to Westwood really trying to adapt to the market at the time frame or survive bankruptcy by adaptation. As a result the game would have been subpar unless they spent even more money in development or hiring other people. Which of course defeats the purpose of making Renegade 2.

 

Quote

Thank you for breaking this down and explaining it to me in great detail. I had no idea about most of it. What a bumpy long ride that must have been for Westwood. Apparently they were through a lot more than I thought. I just assumed EA was being the profiteering devil as it usually was.

Anytime! While it's always great to watch game companies past/future speculation, it's also very important to look at the economic factors surrounding the time period to help gain insight into why things occur or would have.

EA at the end of the day is a corporation. They are alive now due to the actions they've taken in the past. While it's dishearting for players like us, when you can pump out shit and people will buy it in droves... it doesn't matter when you go home in your Mercedes and you're an executive. Why would you ever stop doing what makes you money in any business. This outlook directly conflicted Westwood when they were purchased by EA. Westwood took their time with games and made revolutionary fun things. Their importance and focus was "We want to make fun games that we can't stop testing, playing and staying at work for". EA in an attempt to gain more money cut costs and rushed out production so that they could make more money. Westwood did the best with what they could untill 2005 when most if not all quit and went to work at Petroglyph Games. To give you an idea of how much Westwood cares about their games and players.. they restored the internet to a 14 year old game so people can play multiplayer again for free.

 

Quote

I only wish Westwood was always able to stand on their own. Such a unique company with unique visions. It's basically unheard of to play an RTS game as an FPS/3PS but they made that a possibility.

It's just not profitable enough. Even if Westwood stood on their own and made it through they would have to create something other than RTS games. What we knew westwood studios for is a product of their time unfortunately in my belief. Although I saw a trailer earlier on our discord I believe of Westwood making a Renegade Clone. Idk if someone can pull it up but it's basically the spiritual successor to Renegade.

[buttnutella]

4 hours ago, Threve said:

With EA having purchased Westwood, yeah. Definitely not. I would even go as far to say Renegade was the product of EA trying out something to earn more profit. If there was a chance it would have to have been due to Westwood really trying to adapt to the market at the time frame or survive bankruptcy by adaptation. As a result the game would have been subpar unless they spent even more money in development or hiring other people. Which of course defeats the purpose of making Renegade 2.

Found a vid that's coincidentally right the alley of our conversation right now. You were 100% right about them rushing Ren out for profit. This vid even states earlier RTS titles were met with the same EA fate everyone came to expect from them in their pattern of similar behavior that followed suit well into their career obviously showcasing their greed.

In my own humble opinion,  if Westwood was allowed to take their time on their projects like they always tried to do they would have truly turned EA some profits. I mean aren't the group of guys solely responsible for the RTS genre & it's roots? If they are able to do that then surely they are able to innovate within their own turf.

 It's like EA just filled in the name & date on the test then turned it in knowing they would default to a quarter of the credits just for showing up for the test instead of finishing it to receive full credits like it's intended to really pass that class. There's no money in lingering behind the first 5 frets, yet that's where EA like's to make their living. I'm not alone in that either as so many people have regretted buying various EA games for literally the same exact reasons we are discussing right now.

4 hours ago, Threve said:

Anytime! While it's always great to watch game companies past/future speculation, it's also very important to look at the economic factors surrounding the time period to help gain insight into why things occur or would have.

Especially when you have some emotional/nostalgic attachment to a certain title or franchise then it's most definitely fun to learn the entire backstories on things that were missing to you growing up because I've always been one to just get in the server to have fun so I never really did any digging on things like this. Hell, I never even watched most game reveals on E3 or followed what companies were doing closely so I knew no plans of developments. Even if I did, I was still growing up then so I doubt I would have been able to wrap my mind around anything to do with economics so it's infinitely interesting to me now that I do.

4 hours ago, Threve said:

EA at the end of the day is a corporation. They are alive now due to the actions they've taken in the past. While it's dishearting for players like us, when you can pump out shit and people will buy it in droves... it doesn't matter when you go home in your Mercedes and you're an executive. Why would you ever stop doing what makes you money in any business.

Yes, that's a very fair point. I do completely understand people need to eat still but it's people not realizing or putting their foot down to it so they feel they can get away with it so they continue to like it's just business which isn't personal to them when their decisions ultimately decide on peoples fate which is very personal to them. An example being, when say; any random company gets new management so they decide funds can be used elsewhere then they close down a warehouse where hundreds of employees worked at so while it's not personal to them but hundreds of people had to go home without knowing what to do next. I know that any executives growing a conscious is nothing but a pipe dream though.

4 hours ago, Threve said:

This outlook directly conflicted Westwood when they were purchased by EA. Westwood took their time with games and made revolutionary fun things. Their importance and focus was "We want to make fun games that we can't stop testing, playing and staying at work for". EA in an attempt to gain more money cut costs and rushed out production so that they could make more money. Westwood did the best with what they could untill 2005 when most if not all quit and went to work at Petroglyph Games.

Oh Petroglyph, aren't they remaking a sort of a Renegade meets Borderlands with their comic book art style game? Slips my mind on what the name of it is but I saw a vid of it last night. Gotta say I personally was digging what I saw & would definitely give it a try when it's out.

I completely agree on all your points too btw, even before I saw vids of the Westwood crew admitting "how much fun they truly had & marveled at how they couldn't believe they got paid to work on the project" is something I could tell from just playing the game & watching the cut-scenes LOL

Definitely looks like they made a blast making their games, that's for sure. 2005 sounds about right because my attention went to other games around that time but I have never completely quit Renegade since I ALWAYS came back to it if I was gaming in that point of my life. Renegade thankfully never dies. Amazing game even if it has it's flaws.

4 hours ago, Threve said:

To give you an idea of how much Westwood cares about their games and players.. they restored the internet to a 14 year old game so people can play multiplayer again for free.

Wow that's incredible man! Definitely shows it's Westwood that cares most & I can definitely now see why everyone is so fond of Westwood after learning more of the backstory behind everything. Westwood is out there reconnecting official servers to games approaching their second decade but Nintendo Wii prematurely pulled it's servers on us Mario Kart fans LOL I can see why everyone geeks so hard about Westwood.

Westwood is really the mother Teresa of gaming LOL

4 hours ago, Threve said:

It's just not profitable enough. Even if Westwood stood on their own and made it through they would have to create something other than RTS games. What we knew westwood studios for is a product of their time unfortunately in my belief. Although I saw a trailer earlier on our discord I believe of Westwood making a Renegade Clone. Idk if someone can pull it up but it's basically the spiritual successor to Renegade.

That's a great way to put it brother. Thanks for stating it that way too. You probably are right on it not being profitable to begin with though. I think you're right about them making more than RTS games which exactly where a Renegade or similar series could have filled it's shoes. Take something they are already good at like RTS and add FPS/3PS elements then milk that for all its worth imo. There's an entire gaping hole of a market with that single idea right there. Doesn't have to exclusively be like Renegade either. The idea itself oozes endless potential. How many games have given us a RTS/FPS/3PS elements into one game? Not very many but I'm all ears if you do know of such games.

Do share that vid you saw in your discord serve though, sounds intriguing. Been looking up lots of old Renegade vids & other C&C content lately. Thanks for chatting me about all of this!

Edited August 20, 2020 by buttnutella

[GibbletsnBits]

I think you guys are selling Westwood short in their ability to adapt to changes creatively and change markets themselves. The wouldnt have weak audio game with frank there, ever. I think they could have gone and made a great MMO out of their Lands of Lore franchise. Blade Runner association. Even the niche Legend of Karandia series could have spawned an interesting game. I do hate EA for imposing their awful time deadlines on a company that valued taking time to imbue something with art, craftsmanship doesn't produce quickly.

[OWA]

On 8/18/2020 at 8:29 AM, neko soldier said:

2. 3 Factions: Allies, Soviet Remnants, and Scavengers

Soviets and Scavengers were the same faction if I remember correctly.