Games [GAME OVER] Apocalypse Rising Mafia I

[Shade939]

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:33 PM, iLikeToSnipe said:

It can be used to hurt town or scum. But it seems in practice to start out as being pro-town but then it quickly narrows down who is who as people die and roles flip. Overall, that's going to favor town more than scum.

I do like how it can be used, but it seems to have too much of an impact on the game compared to standard scum hunting.

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Naturally it's preferable to scum hunting when it's available, it's better to rely on logic than biased emotional reasoning.

[OrangeP47]

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:38 PM, Shade939 said:

Naturally it's preferable to scum hunting when it's available, it's better to rely on logic than biased emotional reasoning.

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Except which tactic nailed ILTS to the wall?

[Shade939]

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:39 PM, OrangeP47 said:

Except which tactic nailed ILTS to the wall?

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Which logical point disputed the fact that iLTS could be Scum?

[OrangeP47]

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:41 PM, Shade939 said:

Which logical point disputed the fact that iLTS could be Scum?

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He was found with classic scum hunting is the point shade.

[Killing_You]

I feel that if there were more possibilities, it'd be harder to use the numbers game to narrow down who's who. I think that contributed heavily to Town being able to get Scum; they knew exactly what roles to look out for (specifically scum roles). If there were more role possibilities than players, it'd probably make it more difficult.

[OrangeP47]

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:43 PM, OrangeP47 said:

He was found with classic scum hunting is the point shade.

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The fact that that was your rebuttal shows you have yet to master logic so I'm not sure we should be taking lessons on it from you

[Shade939]

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:43 PM, Killing_You said:

I feel that if there were more possibilities, it'd be harder to use the numbers game to narrow down who's who. I think that contributed heavily to Town being able to get Scum; they knew exactly what roles to look out for (specifically scum roles). If there were more role possibilities than players, it'd probably make it more difficult.

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In which case you're playing a completely different style of game then, in which you can't scum hunt as well since you don't know what to look for.

[OrangeP47]

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:43 PM, Killing_You said:

I feel that if there were more possibilities, it'd be harder to use the numbers game to narrow down who's who. I think that contributed heavily to Town being able to get Scum; they knew exactly what roles to look out for (specifically scum roles). If there were more role possibilities than players, it'd probably make it more difficult.

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Yeah, your game had the *possibility* of hidden roles, and the roles were a range, not a "this is for sure how many of each there are" which was probably better.

[Retaliation]

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:43 PM, Killing_You said:

I feel that if there were more possibilities, it'd be harder to use the numbers game to narrow down who's who. I think that contributed heavily to Town being able to get Scum; they knew exactly what roles to look out for (specifically scum roles). If there were more role possibilities than players, it'd probably make it more difficult.

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Not knowing scum roles would be interesting.

[Shade939]

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:46 PM, Retaliation said:

Not knowing scum roles would be interesting.

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That'd be a good way to look at it, have to find scum by process of elimination based on who's the odd one out.

It's a far better way to balance things out, by eliminating a player as being Scum, rather than confirming that player has to be Scum.

[Killing_You]

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:44 PM, Shade939 said:

In which case you're playing a completely different style of game then, in which you can't scum hunt as well since you don't know what to look for.

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It's still a game of psychoanalysis and logical deduction. Semi-open setups still give you more to work with than completely closed ones.

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:44 PM, OrangeP47 said:

Yeah, your game had the *possibility* of hidden roles, and the roles were a range, not a "this is for sure how many of each there are" which was probably better.

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Oh yeah. The big problem there was that the rolesheet was basically the setup + your role. I've remedied that by adding more possible roles to the sheet (to give you an idea, possible Scum roles jumped from 3 [technically 4 because hidden Confessor role] to 8).

[Shade939]

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:50 PM, Killing_You said:

It's still a game of psychoanalysis and logical deduction. Semi-open setups still give you more to work with than completely closed ones.

Oh yeah. The big problem there was that the rolesheet was basically the setup + your role. I've remedied that by adding more possible roles to the sheet (to give you an idea, possible Scum roles jumped from 3 [technically 4 because hidden Confessor role] to 8).

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As Jeod pointed out, the problem with this setup was actually the Conscript roles being so unique so Mafia couldn't pretend to be one of the majority roles in the game.

[Jeod]

What Verti60 did was build on the possible roles after each game. Essentially the "new" role was guaranteed to appear in the setup, but several of the older roles had a chance to appear or not be in the game at all. Verti60 also kept storylines tied to separate games rather than connect them.

[Retaliation]

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:48 PM, Shade939 said:

That'd be a good way to look at it, have to find scum by process of elimination based on who's the odd one out.

It's a far better way to balance things out, by eliminating a player as being Scum, rather than confirming that player has to be Scum.

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I've always liked the idea of giving scum a set of possible roles and letting them choose between them before game start.

[Shade939]

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:54 PM, Retaliation said:

I've always liked the idea of giving scum a set of possible roles and letting them choose between them before game start.

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That'd be a fair way to approach things also, you wouldn't need to keep the Scum roles hidden then either.

Although, the biggest thing with Mafia setups is you need vanilla roles for Mafia roles to hide among. Otherwise you can figure out who's role is what based on role abilities instead of scum hunting.

[Shade939]

Basically, the saying that describes that is the nail that sticks out gets hammered down.

[Killing_You]

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:54 PM, Jeod said:

What Verti60 did was build on the possible roles after each game. Essentially the "new" role was guaranteed to appear in the setup, but several of the older roles had a chance to appear or not be in the game at all.

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That's kind of what I ended up doing. Just expanding and tweaking the role sheet as I go.

  On 1/5/2021 at 10:53 PM, Shade939 said:

As Jeod pointed out, the problem with this setup was actually the Conscript roles being so unique so Mafia couldn't pretend to be one of the majority roles in the game.

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  On 1/5/2021 at 10:56 PM, Shade939 said:

Although, the biggest thing with Mafia setups is you need vanilla roles for Mafia roles to hide among. Otherwise you can figure out who's role is what based on role abilities instead of scum hunting.

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Truth be told, both of these are good points. I'm considering revoking the dig in ability as a result, to ease the pressure on Scum a bit in that regard.

[Retaliation]

Figure out a way to make stuck and miss more equal for vanilla roles and you won't have to play around roles having 100% stuck chances so much.

[Shade939]

  On 1/5/2021 at 11:06 PM, Retaliation said:

Figure out a way to make stuck and miss more equal for vanilla roles and you won't have to play around roles having 100% stuck chances so much.

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50% stuck chance, 75% miss chance.

50% chances of getting stuck.

37.5% chance of getting a miss.

12.5% chance of killing someone.

[Retaliation]

  On 1/5/2021 at 11:08 PM, Shade939 said:

50% stuck chance, 75% miss chance.

50%  chances of getting stuck.

37.5% chance of getting a miss.

12.5% chance of killing someone.

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This combined with a variation on the practice night action is probably about the best you can get staying with variations of 1/4. Stuck becomes of normal, misses become notable, and kills become tells. Practice ensures that scum can always have a fallback if they get a kill.

[Killing_You]

Anyway, who's up next to host?

[Shade939]

  On 1/5/2021 at 11:14 PM, Retaliation said:

This combined with a variation on the practice night action is probably about the best you can get staying with variations of 1/4. Stuck becomes of normal, misses become notable, and kills become tells. Practice ensures that scum can always have a fallback if they get a kill.

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You can actually probably leave the practice action as is, since it also clarifies to Scum that you're a Vanilla role also?

25% stuck chance.

56.25% miss chance.

18.75% kill chance.

[Jeod]

  On 1/5/2021 at 11:16 PM, Killing_You said:

Anyway, who's up next to host?

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I can probably have ARM 2 ready to go by end of next week.

[OrangeP47]

I need to slow down and focus on other things for a bit.

[Jeod]

  On 1/5/2021 at 11:26 PM, OrangeP47 said:

I need to slow down and focus on other things for a bit.

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By ready to go I mean setup. Signup period would be 10 days so game wouldn't start till Feb.

[Retaliation]

I'd be interested in running the game after the next one.

[OrangeP47]

  On 1/5/2021 at 11:29 PM, Jeod said:

By ready to go I mean setup. Signup period would be 10 days so game wouldn't start till Feb.

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That'd be more workable.

[Jeod]

I'm itching to play though, so if someone else wants to host by all means go for it.

[Killing_You]

  On 1/5/2021 at 11:31 PM, Jeod said:

I'm itching to play though, so if someone else wants to host by all means go for it.

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I can have TSR Mafia 2 ready around the same time frame if Retal also needs more time.

[Retaliation]

I've been very lazy about actually formalizing what I want out of the game because I wasn't sure if I'd get a job the last couple of weeks. That didn't pan out so I'm free to start that process.