Discuss Concepts for future W3D Convertions & Adaptions of C&C Games

[Metaridley]

Everytime a new W3D Game got announced, my excitement goes up to eleven. Especially the announcement of Ground Zero gave me hope seeing another classic C&C Game adapted into a 3D FPS Game (Renegade was a bit too futuristic to count as a convertion of Tiberian Dawn into an FPS Game). Over the years we saw different approaches of newer C&C Games adapted into the Renegade Style like Scud Storm for Generals or Tiberium Wars Mods like The Third Tiberium War or Tiberium Crystal Wars. We even saw a C&C 4 Map popping up over the years. But none of the mentioned Mods got far in development or had several design problems.

After learning more about the Design of Renegade and several other W3D Mods i thought about concepts how to bring EA-Era C&C Titles like Generals, Tiberium Wars or Red Alert 3 into the First Person Perspective. Despite being a controversial or obscure title i wouldn't even cut out Total Convertions for Tiberian Twilight or Rivals.

This is not a thread to ask if somebody will create Mod XYZ, more like my ideas for potential mods and whats your idea or opinion on them. I just starting 3D Modeling and a bit animation and far from it to be good to create my own W3D Game (but i still want to improve my skills!). And please don't judge me on my bad english skills!

Design of the Bases:
First of all - there should be no Base Building in these Mods. The Concept for Base Building in Renegade isn't bad, Scud Storm and other Renegade Mods show'd it's possible but its a big impact on the Map Design and depends on your team players. Many Maps would have to be flat for putting each building on the map and some players could mess up the base layout. Also it would be a pacing breaker if the team first has to build a base before they can start into combat. The only deployable buildings should be atleast bunkers or smaller defenses like in Interm Apex. As example Tiberium Wars GDI Infantry and RA3 Soviet Engineers would have the ability to deploy bunkers.



Factions, Sub-Factions and different Generals:
One of the problem of later C&C Games since RA2 Yuris Revenge (or we also could argue the problem exists since the Dune RTS Games) the existence of more than 2 factions in the games. Renegade atm only supports 2 factions per match so the only solution atm is to made it depending on the Map Setting (also a 3-4 Faction Map would be really hard to handle and it would be hard to get so much players on it because the engine got frame drops if 40-50 people are ingame). In the Generals Universe the USA and China fought together against the GLA so this is a lesser problem. In terms of Tiberium Wars, i would also throw the mutants from tiberium alliances into the mix because they had a solid foundation of units and buildings in the game.

So this would be the constellation=
Generals: USA vs GLA/ China vs GLA (USA vs China maybe only on a fun map or competitive map?)
Tiberium Wars: GDI vs Nod (no brainer), GDI vs Scrin, Nod vs Scrin, GDI vs Mutants, Nod vs Mutans (because of the setting from Alliances)
Red Alert 3: Allies vs Soviets (no brainer), Allies vs Empire, Soviets vs Empire

For the Sub-Factions and different Generals i would handle it like this - throwing the exclusive units and other stuff into their main factions. This would solve the Infantry Problem in a Generals Mod, because Generals didn't had much infantry classes for just one side and so you don't necessary need to create new original classes.
As example China would have basically 4 base units, adding the other generals exclusive ones in, they would get the Minigunner, Super Hacker and Super Lotus.
Same for GLA, they would get Toxin and Stealth Units from the respective Generals.
Also it should apply for Tiberium Wars and their respective sub factions from Kanes Wrath.

Handling of the Support Powers, Upgrades and Team Promotions:
Here starts to differentiate each game really heavily. But all games also would have something in common. They would have the advantage that upgrade systems already exists in mods like Interm Apex.

In Generals all upgrades have to be researched by different buildings. Depending on the map which tech level and buildings are available it would be possible to limit the upgrade mania of generals. But basically all support powers are unlocked by general's promotions.
The System should look like these = depending on the team score and performance, the team will get promotion points like in generals. So players can unlock the support powers and other upgrades via the purchase terminal and can also use them with it.

Tiberium Wars is a whole different beast. There was no Promotion System for the player, all upgrades and powers are bound to their respective buildings. So it would be much more important to save certain buildings or the team will loose access to their unexplored upgrades and support powers. Also mappers could limit the upgrades and support powers, depending which buildings they put on the map.

Red Alert 3 is again is complete own thing. Instead of relying on upgrades for units in different buildings, it only has a promotion system, similar to Generals.

Of course we also have to talk about the super weapons of each game. Scud Storm, Nuke Missles, Ion Cannon, Rift Generator, Proton Collider, Vacuum Bomb, and the Psionic Wave would function as normal, just a beacon like weapon for mass destruction (1-MainBuilding Destroyer and damages main buildings nearby, destroying smaller weaker nearby buildings too)

But we have also some specialized super weapons. The Particle Cannon also should work with a beacon but with a twist. If a player launched a Particle Cannon successful its also a 1-Main Building Destroyer. But if a second player stands on a purchase terminal at the own base, he can additional control it! So the Particle Cannon would be still strong for one player but encourages to handle it by another team member to maximize his destructive potential. The Renegade Mod Scud Storm solved the Super Weapon Problem with moving icons but the enemy team wouldn't had any chance to disarm/counter primary Super Weapons with that method.

Same goes for Chronosphere, Iron Curtain and Nanoswarm Barrier. They would need some team member at a terminal to activate.

Focus of each game:
IMO a generals mod should have the arcarde infantry combat of APB and TSR, but should more focus on vehicle combat. Generals was a tank-dominated game so it would fit pretty well.
Tiberium Wars would be more like balanced between infantry and vehicle combat, like APB and TSR. Also there would be a much bigger option for air combat because of 3 factions with air units.
RA3 would open a new window for naval combat, because you could also have bases on the sea.

Extra Stuff:

- All Games should have the Unit Promotion System like in TSR or in AR.
- For a Tiberium Wars Coop Defense Map it could be use a layout from the Tiberium Wars Mobile Game. So we also had a reference to that Game too.

- To build on a solid foundation for these mods, i would use existing mods as a base. RA A Path Beyond would be perfect for a Generals Mod, Pipline is the perfect testing ground for GLA Units. Tiberium Wars should be use TSR 2.0 as a base and a Red Alert 3 Mod Apocalypse Rising because RA 2 and 3 are similar in certain mechanics.
- A Red Alert 3 Mod could be got some sort of Prototype in Form of a RA Mobile Mod. IMO the part between YR and the Prologe Cutscene of RA3 is not well known and only the iOS Game covers it. Many units are function quite the same like their ra2 and 3 versions.
- Why i am throwing Tiberium Alliances into the mix of Tiberium Wars and Kanes Wrath? Because 90% of the units and buildings are the same and have additional buildings that could be used greatly like MG Nests, Barbed Wire, Anti Tank Barrier and more.
- Yes we should have epic units in a Tiberium Wars and RA3 Mod. I would like to drive a MARV, Reedemer, Hexapod, Shogun Executioner and a Giga Fortress. But they would need big maps to perform well. But we have the Mammoth MK2 in TSR so...
- For a RA3 Mod the Ore Field and economy system would be a bit different. Each Side would have a refinery with a single Ore Mine in base and a AI Miner would drive/swim back to back. To give players the possibility to get additional ore they could go out and get ore from other ore mines. But it would mean we need additional Ore Refineries in the base. So maybe the outpost units could be reworked into sort-of smol refinery versions. Also they would have a purpose in the renegade gameplay.
- To create the models, imo i would use the models from the respective games first and would use them as place holder. As a 3D Artist i would then improve on these models until they are different enough not be a copyright problem. The biggest problem would be to create animations for the Scrin and the Empire. Scrin Units are mostly organic and Empire Vehicles have alot of transformation animations.


And for the last part many people will hate me. But i would also like to see Renegade Mods for Tiberian Twilight and Rivals. There was a C&C 4 Map for Renegade created and sort of worked. A full mod like these would create a "Capture the flag" Gamemode, but base mode would also possible. Each Crawler would function as a Production Building and there are also certain types of base defenses in Tib. Twilight. And instead of getting tiberium for credits players would collect tiberium crystals for upgrades and crates for upgrading their units. Rivals on the other hand would be more like a quick match-type of game with smaller maps.

All in all nearly all of these ideas for future W3D Games for C&C Games are possible with all their mechanics. Sadly certain games couldn't get converted to the W3D Engine because of copyright reasons. Imagine LotR Battle for Middle Earth 1+2 in Renegade, Generals 2 for obvious canceled reasons, Star Wars Empire at War etc.
I even had an idea for a Metroid Version of Renegade but Nintendo would DMCA that immediately.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Metaridley

[Jeod]

Some more objective-based maps would go a long way toward existing w3d games I imagine. I like the concept of C&C Rivals, for example, but it isn't too fun as a mobile game. Imagine APB's Zama, but with nukes that go off after a team holds a capture zone for an amount of time--and then once three nukes go off for a team, that team wins. This sort of thing would take some work to design, but I think it's doable. Let's devolve that concept though and start small. Add a CTF and King of the Hill mode to APB.

[Nodlied]

IIRC, Ground Zero is going to be a more objective based game. But I'm sure that @ Killing_You  could tell you more about that.

[Killing_You]

4 hours ago, Nodlied said:

IIRC, Ground Zero is going to be a more objective based game. But I'm sure that @ Killing_You  could tell you more about that.

He speaks the truth. The primary game mode of Ground Zero is basically Domination mode with full tech and bases. The goal is to win by holding the majority of the points (represented by Supply Depots) to gain enough Conquest Points to win. (That said, if you wish to win by base destruction, that is also an option). We've been kicking around the idea of having more Seamist-style assault maps as well, but that's probably not going to be in the first release.

[Metaridley]

7 hours ago, Killing_You said:

He speaks the truth. The primary game mode of Ground Zero is basically Domination mode with full tech and bases. The goal is to win by holding the majority of the points (represented by Supply Depots) to gain enough Conquest Points to win. (That said, if you wish to win by base destruction, that is also an option). We've been kicking around the idea of having more Seamist-style assault maps as well, but that's probably not going to be in the first release.

I mean i like the standart C&C Mode but i always like to see maps with goals/targets that are different from the normal standart. It gives a game more fun and variety. Thats why i think IMO Tiberian Twilight and Rivals - despite their status in the fandom - would have interesting concepts for an FPS. I hope we see a Mobile HQ Mode and a Sole Survivor Style Mode in Ground Zero

Edited October 16, 2021 by Metaridley

[Killing_You]

5 hours ago, Metaridley said:

I mean i like the standart C&C Mode but i always like to see maps with goals/targets that are different from the normal standart. It gives a game more fun and variety. Thats why i think IMO Tiberian Twilight and Rivals - despite their status in the fandom - would have interesting concepts for an FPS. I hope we see a Mobile HQ Mode and a Sole Survivor Style Mode in Ground Zero

Mobile HQ is a very strong possibility. Or, at the very least, some sort of unique escort mode, as I think that'd be fun to do within the MilSimmy environment. Sole Survivor mode... as much as I have zero interest in Battle Royale style games, I wouldn't say no to including it.

Of course, bearing in mind that any and all hypothetical alternate game modes are post-release at best and should not be taken as "we're 100% doing them." Just to temper expectations properly.