A Path Beyond APB Temporary Infantry Overhaul Experiment

[Pushwall]

  Red Alert: A Path Beyond Update     

The "headshot overhaul" - more of a general infantry overhaul - mentioned in another forum thread is in for a public test. This is in a separate file from the main patch; as it's a big experiment, we will likely revert it after tonight (or however manynights it takes to get some decently-sized games with it) unless it ends up being almost entirely free of problems and negative feedback, and then refine it for later if it can be salvaged.

edit: As of 26th May 00:42 GMT this experiment has been disabled for further tweaking.

[blurb]The "Headshot Overhaul" mentioned on the forums is now in for a short public test.[/blurb]

General

• Headshot/helmetshot damage multiplier increased from 3 to 5.
• Neckshot damage multiplier decreased from 3 to 1. Getting an actual "headshot" is therefore harder.
• Armour penetration of various weapons is altered. For the weapons that are penalised by this, bodyshots are therefore worse than they were before, except against "naked" infantry.
  • Remaining machineguns, tank shells, rockets 75% -> 87.5%
  • Assault rifles, MP5, Pillbox 62.5% -> 50%
  • Pistols, snipers, KovShotty 50% -> 37.5%
• Armour shredding of various weapons is reduced:
  • Machineguns 150% -> 100%
  • Tank shells, rockets 200% -> 100%
  • Flame weapons 150% -> 75%
  • M16, AK, MP5, Pillbox 100% -> 25%
  • Slug 150% -> 25%
• Cover penetration of various weapon explosions is reduced:
  • Flame weapons 50% -> 33%
  • Artilleries 25% -> 20%
  • Phase/Mammoth/Turret 25% -> 0%
• Infantry now regenerate 5 HP per second instead of 3.
• Tank shells/rockets damage multiplier to infantry down from 0.375 to 0.3 (0.625 -> 0.45 for Volkov).
• Infantry can now begin to see stealth units from 25m away (was 20).
• Radar Dome no longer causes Tanya/Volkov to become unavailable on death. (This was more a placeholder "feature" for until something useful came along.)
• Headshots and helmetshots now use a distinct sound.
• Height differences between infantry have been narrowed.
• Infantry hitboxes have been overhauled; all infantry now have completely identical ones (this time for real), except for Flamethrower's backpack, and they are generally smaller than before (especially the head).

 

Unit-specific changes

Pistol users

• Accuracy penalty when standing/jogging up (0.1 -> 0.25). Is still perfectly accurate when crouched.

 Repairmen

• Engineer no longer has extra armour.
• Engineer is no longer fireproof.
• Repair Tool and Golden Wrench overhaul:
  • They are no longer area of effect weapons; instead, they are invisible hitscan beams (like a pistol) with splash damage at the end.
  • You will now need to point directly at an object to repair it. So no more repairing the Soviet Barracks MCT through the floor above. For disarming c4/flares, you just need to point in their general direction.
  • The hitscan has 3m range and the splash has 3m range. (Previously it was an AOE around the user with 3.5m.) As long as you can use the full length of the hitscan beam (for example, you're out in the open trying to disarm a C4 on a silo/coil) then you essentially have a longer disarm radius of 6m, but if you're trying to disarm through a wall, you're slightly worse off than before - you can no longer disarm C4 on a Soviet Barracks MCT through the floor above. Disarming through walls is still totally possible (which it needs to be to allow disarming flares on auxiliary buildings), there's just less places that you can do it.
  • Now has 180 degrees of inaccuracy while bunnyhopping. This has a severe effect on repair attempts and makes C4/flares take at least twice as long to disarm.
  • Golden Wrench now repairs 100% building health in 10 seconds, instead of 66.67% in 7.5 seconds.
  • Long story short, if the Engineer is being shot at, his repair capability is significantly worse than before, but if he's undisturbed or is only taking arty splash through a building wall, he's better than before.
• Disarming a flare is now only worth 500 points (was 750).
• Disarming a C4 is now only worth 50 points (was 75).

 Officers

• Firing sound radius down (130 -> 120m).
• PKM rate of fire down (12.5 -> 12, a ~2.7% DPS decrease).
• Price up (250 -> 300).

 Rifle Soldiers

• Range down (100 -> 90m).
• M16 Trishot accuracy penalties are now only 0.25 lower than primary (was 0.75 lower). So now it only has perfect accuracy when crouched.
• M16 Trishot rate of fire down (2.25 -> 1).
• Firing sound radius down (120 -> 100m).

 Flamethrower

• Firing sound radius down (70 -> 30m).
• Fireball explosion sound radius down (250 -> 150m).
• Range up (90 -> 100m).
• Splash damage up (30 -> 35).
• Health is now completely immune to fire splash; however, armour depletes at the same high rate that it would against normal infantry. So you still don't want to splash yourself, but you can't kill yourself by doing so.
• Price up (300 -> 450).

 Rocket Soldiers

• F1 Grenade direct damage up (15 -> 20).
• RPG-7/LAW accuracy penalty when jumping down (2 -> 1.5).
• AT launchers firing sound radius down (140 -> 100m).

 Mechanic

• Health up (50 -> 60).

 Medic

• No longer has extra armour.
• Health up (75 -> 100).
• Rate of fire up (13.33 -> 15), a ~6.2% DPS increase.
• Accuracy penalties changed: 1.5 standing/jogging, 0.5 crouching, 0.75 crabwalking, 5 jumping (was 1.25 standing/jogging, 0.5 crouching/crabwalking, 3.75 jumping)
• Firing sound radius down (120 -> 90m).
• Medic kit AOE range increased (10 -> 12.5m).
• Medic kit DOT effect now deals 12.5 DPS for 5 seconds, for a total of 62.5 healing (was 10 for 5 = 50 total). So now it requires more use of the new improved headshots to deal with.
• Medic kit DOT effect heals at half the normal rate against other Medics.
• Price up (500 -> 800). No longer a viable insta-rush option for tiny maps... but it's better once you can afford it. When not in multi-medic groups at least.

 Shock Trooper

• Direct hit DOT effect now deals 12.5 DPS for 2 seconds, for a total of 25 damage (was 7.5 for 3 = 22.5 total).
• Accuracy penalties changed: 0.5 standing/jogging, 0 crouching, 0.25 crabwalking, 1.5 jumping (was 0.4 standing/jogging, 0.1 crouching/crabwalking, 1.75 jumping)

 Shotgunners

• Primary and Slug range down (60 -> 50m).
• Remington Slug damage to infantry down (40 -> 30).
• Primary damage spread out over 10 pellets (was 8).
• Remington reload time down (3.33 -> 3 seconds), a ~3% DPS increase.
• TOZ reload time up (3.33 -> 3.5 seconds), a ~1.5% DPS decrease.
• Firing sound radius down (100 -> 90m).
• Price up (150 -> 200).

 Sniper

• Damage up (55 -> 60).
• Firing sound radius up (275 -> 300m).
• Price up (500 -> 650).

 Spy/Thief

• Damage down (12.5 -> 10), same as a normal Beretta. You still kill most infantry in the same amount of headshots as you would with higher damage anyway.
• Is still laser-accurate when standing/jogging, unlike the normal pistols.

 Tanya

• No longer has a depletable armour bar; instead, she has 150 health, the same 50% explosive damage resistance that the Engineer has, and fast regen like Volkov/Medics. Her lack of armour means she is actually pretty fragile against small arms, except for the PKM which relies on its penetration to do well. To give an example, against the 50% penetrating ARs 150 health is equivalent to an armoured captain's 75. But her headshots are nastier.
• Firing sound radius down (150 -> 100m).

 Volkov

• No longer has a depletable armour bar; instead, he has standard armour resistances baked into his health - but only for splash damage and most small arms; direct hits from any large projectile and the APC's Browning are unpenalised (not that they gain much out of it).
• KovShotty damage up (75 -> 80).
• KovShotty range down (60 -> 50m).
• AP mode targeting range is now 100m to match the Kovnades (was matching the Kovshotty instead, but why are you even trying to hit things with the shotgun at that range?)
• KovNade direct damage down (70 -> 25).
• KovNade splash damage down (30 -> 15).
• KovNade ammo usage down (4 -> 2), can now be fired 6 times before reload.
• KovNade now has the same "bouncy" aspect that it did in Beta. This may hurt their precision in close quarters somewhat but it means there's a much, much lower chance of the physics just bugging out and causing them to fall through the ground and be completely harmless.

 

Vehicles

 Mi-24 Hind

• Damage to infantry down (7.5 -> 6).

 Tesla Tank

• Direct hit DOT effect now deals 10 DPS for 4 seconds, for a total of 40 damage (was 7.5 for 5 = 37.5 total).
• Splash damage down (17.5 -> 15).

 

Price modifiers do not apply to Seamist or Fissure as I didn't want to bloat a quick patch with map changes, especially one that's intended to be quickly reverted soon.

[des1206]

Interesting changes. Let's see how it plays out. However I will just say that:

1. You would think the flamethrower's armor is what makes him flameproof, not health. Maybe swap it for realism's sake? Suicide on low health should also be a valid tactic for him, makes things more interesting in this game.

2. Tanya/Volkov change - I'm still not sure about the lack of armor, but is this an overall buff or nerf? Also, you just reminded me that all three Tanyas in Ra never wore anything other than a tight tank-top (how did she have so much health in Ra3?!!!!). I guess you are trying to really go Ralistic here. Volkov though I don't get, he's a robot and should have a lot of armor. Didn't he have tank armor plating in Ra lore?

It would actually be interesting if you made Kov more vulnerable to AT weapons and tank weapons, and Tanya more to small-arms.

[MPRA2]

55 minutes ago, des1206 said:

Interesting changes. Let's see how it plays out. However I will just say that:

1. You would think the flamethrower's armor is what makes him flameproof, not health. Maybe swap it for realism's sake? Suicide on low health should also be a valid tactic for him, makes things more interesting in this game.

2. Tanya/Volkov change - I'm still not sure about the lack of armor, but is this an overall buff or nerf? Also, you just reminded me that all three Tanyas in Ra never wore anything other than a tight tank-top (how did she have so much health in Ra3?!!!!). I guess you are trying to really go Ralistic here. Volkov though I don't get, he's a robot and should have a lot of armor. Didn't he have tank armor plating in Ra lore?

It would actually be interesting if you made Kov more vulnerable to AT weapons and tank weapons, and Tanya more to small-arms.

Tanya wears a bra infused with the Iron curtain... Hell, her whole outfit got dipped in the Iron Curtain... As for Volkov, Maybe experimenting with 50HP/170AP or 200AP? since he IS an early cyborg and is more machine than man, he is also quoted to have "extremely durable armored plating" and " His armor type effectively makes him a walking tank, surpassing even the Soviet Mammoth Tank." but again, his background shows him to be "one of the greatest soldiers the USSR has ever had"...

its a bit confusing as to how the health/armor would be balanced out, but since he is a cyborg, he should definitely have more armor than health.

[des1206]

Only problem is that infantry armor logic doesn't work like vehicle armor/health logic. 50HP/170AP would still leave Volkov very weak since armor only reduces damage to health.

Maybe Volkov can revert back to old infantry days where armor needs to be depleted first? Then we can make him behave more like a mammoth tank - armor is very resistant to small arms but vulnerable to AT weapons and tank splash, then health vulnerable to bullets. 

[Pushwall]

14 hours ago, des1206 said:

Volkov though I don't get, he's a robot and should have a lot of armor. Didn't he have tank armor plating in Ra lore?

 

16 hours ago, Pushwall said:

instead, he has standard armour resistances baked into his health 

I guess I'll phrase this another way then: He has infinite armour but you can't see it and it doesn't apply to tank shells. Not like we have a way to display infinite armour anyway; having 100 armour that regenerates to full every second will just result in countless "wtf is this bug" reactions. There's a subtle indicator of the tank-plating-esque thing going on in how he gives off sparks instead of blood when shot.

14 hours ago, des1206 said:

1. You would think the flamethrower's armor is what makes him flameproof, not health. Maybe swap it for realism's sake? Suicide on low health should also be a valid tactic for him, makes things more interesting in this game.

His fireproof suit doesn't help against bullets, that's something different from the armour. (Also it helped us cut down on armour types by eliminating the "same as armour but immune to fire" class entirely.) 

14 hours ago, des1206 said:

2. Tanya/Volkov change - I'm still not sure about the lack of armor, but is this an overall buff or nerf?

See above for Volkov. For Tanya, it's a buff when it comes to fighting amidst splash-damage and machinegunners - against which she has more survivability than Volkov - but a nerf against low-grade rifles, shotguns and pistols, against whom she can be almost as fragile as a captain or sergeant. So yeah, she is more vulnerable to (most) small arms.

[Pushwall]

This experiment is now disabled, thanks for participating! I'll go refine it and it'll be re-enabled another day.

[SirJustin90]

I can't say the 5x multiplier is best. We're turning back into arcade Renegade. 10 dmg pistol doing 4 shot 50dmg again.

 

I can't say how much taking out the neck multiplier will help. The main issue is people wearing helmets are MORE vulnerable due to have a "bigger" head? Which completely denies logic, (Wearing a helmet would not make you more vulnerable to headshots). Although I don't know if much can be done about that in this engine.

[Pushwall]

9 minutes ago, SirJustin90 said:

The main issue is people wearing helmets are MORE vulnerable due to have a "bigger" head? Which completely denies logic, (Wearing a helmet would not make you more vulnerable to headshots)

The helmet hitbox just replaces part of the old head hitbox instead of taking up more room, so this is not an issue. If you try to shoot the tops of most characters' helmets your shots will just fly right past.

[SirJustin90]

6 minutes ago, Pushwall said:

The helmet hitbox just replaces part of the old head hitbox instead of taking up more room, so this is not an issue. If you try to shoot the tops of most characters' helmets your shots will just fly right past.

Ah, so all characters heads are "the same" essentially? Actually I think you had said this before. My bad.

[Pushwall]

7 minutes ago, SirJustin90 said:

Ah, so all characters heads are "the same" essentially? Actually I think you had said this before. My bad.

Yeah. This was somewhat confusing before the overhaul as some characters were noticeably taller/shorter than others but still had their hitboxes in the same place. So the helmets of taller characters were ghosts that you could shoot through while on shorter characters you could fire just over their helmet and still scrape them. The overhauled hitboxes and character heights are something I plan to include in future patches regardless of how we deal with the headshot overhaul (though obviously the neck will go back to taking head damage if we ditch this direction), so this should cease to be a problem entirely when we get around to making a patch for it.

I did notice during the games tonight that in small-arms fights, infantry certainly did not evaporate anywhere near as quickly as Beta ones (in fact it wasn't that different to before) despite the headshot multiplier going up from 3 to 5. And weapons back in Beta were just as inaccurate as I made them for the overhaul too - and back in Beta infantry survivability was pulled out of the swamp slightly by them being able to bunnyhop with reckless abandon (which is heavily discouraged now). So the overhauled smaller hitboxes and neck nerf are probably doing a lot of work.

[SirJustin90]

Yes the additional spread for bunny hoping especially and the bonus to crouching and jogging versus running is great. Is there a reason why stand/jogging accuracy seems to always be the same, or is it that they just can't be differed in the engine?

 

Hmm suppose the best test for all this is simply time, and notes of previous versus current when the changes are in place.

Edited May 26, 2017 by SirJustin90

[Pushwall]

1 minute ago, SirJustin90 said:

Yes the additional spread for bunny hoping especially and the bonus to crouching and jogging versus running is great. Is there a reason why stand/jogging accuracy seems to always be the same, or is it that they just can't be differed in the engine?

They sadly can't be differed as it stands. There's honestly not much I would apply that to though as I don't really want people standing stock stiill in gunfights - probably just the sniper and maybe the Captain machinegun. For the sniper it at least does apply while scopewalking, oddly enough.

[SirJustin90]

Just now, Pushwall said:

They sadly can't be differed as it stands. There's honestly not much I would apply that to though as I don't really want people standing stock stiill in gunfights - probably just the sniper and maybe the Captain machinegun. For the sniper it at least does apply while scopewalking, oddly enough.

Well I mean it is implied with the crouch versus crabwalk though right? (Equivalent to stand versus jog right? Except crouching obviously). Just seemed odd not to be in standing versus jogging was all.

Edited May 26, 2017 by SirJustin90

[Pushwall]

Yeah crouch vs crabwalk does work for some reason. Crabwalking penalty, of course, does mostly apply for captains/snipers - its impact on other weapons ranges from negligible to nonexistent.

[SirJustin90]

Just now, Pushwall said:

Yeah crouch vs crabwalk does work for some reason. Crabwalking penalty, of course, does mostly apply for captains/snipers - its impact on other weapons ranges from negligible to nonexistent.

Yeah, for the most part. Some it can increase 50% going from crouch to crabwalk though, ie medic now, (fast firing gun makes sense) and now the tesla trooper as 0 to 0.25.

 

Must admit though, I love how you can set accuracy on the go like that, and seemingly from your previous posts, even control the speed at which it adjusts between positions. 

[Pushwall]

From the games last night I don't think this overhaul hurts infantry survivability that much (except obviously Tanya who is more of a glass cannon during her infiltration role) due to heads being more difficult to hit in general. It'll need some more testing but we may end up going ahead with it, but with some of the more unusual features that aren't really related to headshot play and some of the heavy attempts at "counterbalances" getting dialed back since they may not be needed.

On the plus side, the Pipeline non-functional oils issue we noticed last night made me realise something. Since the tool and wrench are now using the same warheads, we can now go ahead with having Technicians and Engineers be able to capture neutral buildings, but with the repair tool doing so much slower than the wrench. @Raap will want to remove the "capture wrench" powerup from Hostile Waters as I will be ditching the presets for that entirely, since losing the Barracks will no longer remove all hope of ever being able to capture things once I amend the capture terminals' settings.

[Raap]

I will, if I ever get a functioning .lvl file from a recent version. No work will happen on the map until it, well, can actually happen. 

[des1206]

5 hours ago, Pushwall said:

From the games last night I don't think this overhaul hurts infantry survivability that much (except obviously Tanya who is more of a glass cannon during her infiltration role) due to heads being more difficult to hit in general. It'll need some more testing but we may end up going ahead with it, but with some of the more unusual features that aren't really related to headshot play and some of the heavy attempts at "counterbalances" getting dialed back since they may not be needed..

Another Tanya nerf? Is she really OP?

[Pushwall]

41 minutes ago, des1206 said:

Another Tanya nerf? Is she really OP?

The 150 health + Engy's splash resistance means she will be somewhat more viable as field support for rapidly taking down troublesome Soviet anti-tank infantry to help Allied tanks move in, while not being bothered much by either their weapons or those of Soviet tanks. In the next iteration of the overhaul this is also coupled by a slight range boost for the Colt (70m as opposed to the other pistols' 60). So shock troopers will have a hard time since their ability to ignore armour means nothing to the infantry that lacks armour (and has more health to compensate), and if a Volkov can't close the distance to use the shotgun which shreds her, he's left with the Kovnades or cannon potshots both of which also do poorly to her because of their reliance on armour piercing. Plus the TTs/Mammoths floating around have a harder time bringing her down.

So in the field she's generally tougher than before (unless snipers make an appearance), but in exchange, she's a little more fragile against anti-infantry infantry (particularly rifles/shotties/snipers) which makes her a little riskier in infiltration, but since she can kill rifles/flamers/engys in one headshot, if you can pull that off, it's less noticeable. Plus, with techies/engies needing to keep their feet on the ground (thus dying easily) if they want to disarm quickly, ignoring the Tanya's existence and bumrushing the C4 is less of an option - so it's only fair that she's a little less invincible in this scenario.

Her old "CQC survival master" title has been passed onto the Medic who has the same 100/100 defenses that she used to have plus a burpier MP5, in exchange for being expensive enough that you can't just buy him right away and rush on a small map like Pacific Threat and instantly win like you could before, plus the BS potential of a multi-Medic group has been hampered by Medics healing other Medics more slowly.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Pushwall

[SilverShark]

On 25.5.2017 at 10:45 PM, Pushwall said:

• Headshots and helmetshots now use a distinct sound.

Ooo, you know what this calls for!

Spoiler

 

 

[des1206]

7 hours ago, Pushwall said:

The 150 health + Engy's splash resistance means she will be somewhat more viable as field support for rapidly taking down troublesome Soviet anti-tank infantry to help Allied tanks move in, while not being bothered much by either their weapons or those of Soviet tanks. In the next iteration of the overhaul this is also coupled by a slight range boost for the Colt (70m as opposed to the other pistols' 60). So shock troopers will have a hard time since their ability to ignore armour means nothing to the infantry that lacks armour (and has more health to compensate), and if a Volkov can't close the distance to use the shotgun which shreds her, he's left with the Kovnades or cannon potshots both of which also do poorly to her because of their reliance on armour piercing. Plus the TTs/Mammoths floating around have a harder time bringing her down.

So in the field she's generally tougher than before (unless snipers make an appearance), but in exchange, she's a little more fragile against anti-infantry infantry (particularly rifles/shotties/snipers) which makes her a little riskier in infiltration, but since she can kill rifles/flamers/engys in one headshot, if you can pull that off, it's less noticeable. Plus, with techies/engies needing to keep their feet on the ground (thus dying easily) if they want to disarm quickly, ignoring the Tanya's existence and bumrushing the C4 is less of an option - so it's only fair that she's a little less invincible in this scenario.

Her old "CQC survival master" title has been passed onto the Medic who has the same 100/100 defenses that she used to have plus a burpier MP5, in exchange for being expensive enough that you can't just buy him right away and rush on a small map like Pacific Threat and instantly win like you could before, plus the BS potential of a multi-Medic group has been hampered by Medics healing other Medics more slowly.

I'm okay with that trade. I always thought Tanya could use more use in the field. Does that resistance to PKM translate into Yak/Hind bullets as well?

For Volkov's changes, is he any different strategically?

[Pushwall]

8 hours ago, des1206 said:

I'm okay with that trade. I always thought Tanya could use more use in the field. Does that resistance to PKM translate into Yak/Hind bullets as well?

Yes.

8 hours ago, des1206 said:

For Volkov's changes, is he any different strategically?

Well, he can't be whittled down to a more vulnerable state anymore due to infinite armour, so he has better field survivability in places that don't have supply trucks. But his shotgun is a little worse at handling armoured infantry and he dies slightly faster to AT weapons.