Spies

[der Papst]

Since a few weeks, every ~3rd battle on maps with many resources ends like this: if Nod is defending well, GDI starts spamming Spies and the whole Nod-team has to decide between stop attacking at all and looking for those stupid OP spies or loosing building after building to OP-units just walking in your base, being ignored by all defenses including the obelisk and placing beacons. Once a spy killed the active obelisk with a beacon.

The spy is the most OP unit ever seen in this game, just give GDI the OP-Sidam of last patch back and remove this bullshit.

I've seen battles where half of GDI or even more played as spy.

 

This game had many very OP units, but they got nerfed quick or even immediately. So why not the spy? This is by far not the first complaint about them, and Nod has nothing comparable. At least make the MSA detect them, leading to the defs killing them.

I'm playing IA since I've discovered it ~2 years ago, but I'm seriously thinking about not playing anymore until this fucking OP unit has been nerfed or removed at all.

 

Edit: The same discussion about a very similar problem already took place when suicide rushes have been a problem: dynamite-suggestions.

A quote from Threve:

Quote

The problem isn't just the ability to kill these suicide rushes. Like I said the Tunguska can handle the situation easily.. It's about the whole entire game being based off having one person (typically me or I assume Ganein as well) constantly just patrolling and camping to prevent this for the whole entire match.

The difference this time: Spies don't take out a secondary defense, they take out a main building.

Edited December 4, 2019 by der Papst

[Kickmofo]

In my opinion a spy should not be able to pick up a stealth suit or a weapon or any kind. 

You as a team need to ensure you mine your base put up an MSA and camp. If you dont choose to do this then you have to accept you may loose. The majorioty of the games are usualy decided within the first 25 mins and not because of a spies

[Threve]

18 hours ago, der Papst said:

Since a few weeks, every ~3rd battle on maps with many resources ends like this: if Nod is defending well, GDI starts spamming Spies and the whole Nod-team has to decide between stop attacking at all and looking for those stupid OP spies or loosing building after building to OP-units just walking in your base, being ignored by all defenses including the obelisk and placing beacons. Once a spy killed the active obelisk with a beacon.

The spy is the most OP unit ever seen in this game, just give GDI the OP-Sidam of last patch back and remove this bullshit.

I've seen battles where half of GDI or even more played as spy.

 

This game had many very OP units, but they got nerfed quick or even immediately. So why not the spy? This is by far not the first complaint about them, and Nod has nothing comparable. At least make the MSA detect them, leading to the defs killing them.

I'm playing IA since I've discovered it ~2 years ago, but I'm seriously thinking about not playing anymore until this fucking OP unit has been nerfed or removed at all.

 

Edit: The same discussion about a very similar problem already took place when suicide rushes have been a problem: dynamite-suggestions.

A quote from Threve:

The difference this time: Spies don't take out a secondary defense, they take out a main building.

Alot to digest but some important things to take away from this.

- A spy costs $3,200 + $2,000 beacon + (Usually) $500 credit support + $200 to $800 vehicle/aircraft. At best case the cost is $5,200 or at worst it's $6,500. This is a huge investment in a unit that can be killed by 1-2 proxie mines. But this isn't about a unit that can/can't survive proxy mines.

- The problem of this unit comes up when a game is usually lower player count or most notably the map is large. The most criminal of such being Vile_Facitly, Ridge Warfare, Winter_Assualt.  The reason of this is that there is alot of open space to sneak through, unable to be countered. The beacons are planted outside or on top of a building. The biggest problem which i can agree with is that... 20% of players are too far away to do anything, 10% in field without a repair unit and if they went back they would be to late, 10% of players in the field are close enough but don't care, 10% of players literally don't know what the fuck is going on,  20% go to chase after the beacon and die from the person defending where upon they (The spy) steals a Vehicle to cover it or use an AK-107, 30% disarm the beacon or it's too late.

- While I have vouched for you with the above. Letting the enemy team amass that many credits, is your team's fault and this is what happens... but at the same time, vile facility (new) and Ridge_warfare are so large that money is nearly unlimited. Only worsened by having Tib upgrade, multiple Harvs, Forg Silo and Earning $ through repairs.

----------- So what can we take away from all of this above. It's not just the unit's fault (Which some of it is..) but it is mainly the maps fault for allowing such money (in my opinion) to be garnished. Instead however of changing the map design for less $ (which would fuck up buying Upgrades, being able to harv etc.) I think the spy could do with these changes. ------------------

 

- No AK-107 or being able to pick up weapons. You want to blow up a building, use a pistol/whatever and go hard. Also AK-107 is a 1 Hit Headhunter machine gun. 

- Spies cannot drive vehicles. This would encourage ethier teamwork more, or make it so that a spy would have to travel across the field allowing your team a chance to get him. If a spy runs to the enemy base, this also decreases the frequency that they (the spies) infiltrate along with wasting more time for the person who is a spy. (This means they have to weigh more if it's really worth it.)

- No armor to start out with. No chance to survive when/if detected. 

- Spy be put at 4000 Credits.

- Cannot swim

- No Stealth Suits. (I believe MSA's detect spies in Stealth Suits however.. so picking one up late game might actually be a bad thing depending on how you look at it.)

 

All of the above means that spy can still be in-game and it gives Nod a more fair chance to catch them. Also the map design (and 30,000 things else attached with changing a map) are not affected. The spy should still be in-game and it's a great unit. However, if it uses the above it's not nerfed to stupidity and allows a more fair chance to be detected. 

 

In regards to my quote, I don't support it being the same thing as you're trying to point out. There is a difference between silent 1000 credit (veh and char.) Dynamite Drive by's and a Beacon being announced to the whole server.

[der Papst]

On 12/5/2019 at 5:30 AM, Kickmofo said:

In my opinion a spy should not be able to pick up a stealth suit or a weapon or any kind. 

You as a team need to ensure you mine your base put up an MSA and camp. If you dont choose to do this then you have to accept you may loose. The majorioty of the games are usualy decided within the first 25 mins and not because of a spies

MSA detects Nod's stealth units, not spies.

And Mines at the entrance of buildings don't stop spies from placing beacons at the roof. Even if you manage to mine all entrances to your base without blowing the limit, they only need one spy with a repair tool to disarm them.

I've seen only once a protection against spies: A Nod-Team at file facility had completely surrounded their PP with barriers built by pioneers. But it would have also prevented them from repairing it if Tanks would have attacked PP.

 

On 12/5/2019 at 6:27 AM, Threve said:

In regards to my quote, I don't support it being the same thing as you're trying to point out. There is a difference between silent 1000 credit (veh and char.) Dynamite Drive by's and a Beacon being announced to the whole server.

You already invalidated those arguments yourself:

• There are maps where money is nearly unlimited. The maps you enlisted are exactly those where it happens most of the time. I'm also against reducing the money on those maps since it allows also enourmous battles with very expensive tanks, battleships, having all upgrades,... Taking all those away to allowing some people playing an more-than-OP unit is bullshit.
• Players might not be in range to get it in time, might have no repair tool.

It needs at least a specialized countermeasure for spies, how about introducing RA's guard dogs? For example allowing pioneers to build a dog house which spawn a dog killing the spy when in range.

If you still think, spies are not OP only because of their price, just revoke the ezek nerf, make it ignored by AGT and other defences and make it 5000 credits.

Edited December 6, 2019 by der Papst

[Threve]

3 hours ago, der Papst said:

You already invalidated those arguments yourself

The problem with dynamite was that is was a $1,000 to constantly suicide with a respectable amount of armor unto a structure with no announcement or hint a dynamite was planted (mind you two dynamites could be planted). This is vastly different than a $5,600 credit sucide rush that is announced to the whole server. While money is very plentiful on maps, there is still a $4,600 credit difference.

 

3 hours ago, der Papst said:

If you still think, spies are not OP only because of their price, just revoke the ezek nerf, make it ignored by AGT and other defences and make it 5000 credits.

Yeah, no.

 

3 hours ago, der Papst said:

It needs at least a specialized countermeasure for spies, how about introducing RA's guard dogs? For example allowing pioneers to build a dog house which spawn a dog killing the spy when in range.

How would this work on small maps. What would be the range for this AI dog? Would there be a limit on how many could be built? What would be the price? If the limit was one or two to prevent people from spamming this who would be in charge to build this crucial structure? 

[der Papst]

9 hours ago, Threve said:

The problem with dynamite was that is was a $1,000 to constantly suicide with a respectable amount of armor unto a structure with no announcement or hint a dynamite was planted (mind you two dynamites could be planted). This is vastly different than a $5,600 credit sucide rush that is announced to the whole server. While money is very plentiful on maps, there is still a $4,600 credit difference.

1000$ to kill a SAM/Turret or 5600$ to kill a main building - I still choose the latter.

The announcement is useless if no one is in range to disarm it - and this is not a random decision. The spy can simply wait until no one is in range.

 

Quote

How would this work on small maps. What would be the range for this AI dog? Would there be a limit on how many could be built? What would be the price? If the limit was one or two to prevent people from spamming this who would be in charge to build this crucial structure? 

I imagined it as a specialized MSA, so it should work like it. Maybe not built by pioneers as i said before but as a deploy-able vehicle built in War Factory. No limit, range has to balanced versus it's price.

Another problem is, the spy can simply go around its range of effect. Being a stealth unit would prevent this.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2019 by der Papst

[Raptor29aa]

I think the issue is not so much the spies, but an effective counter for them.

And I do agree they are insanely powerful, like on the map vile facility having a spy pick up explosives and silently blow up defenses (or use a PIC). I’ve even seen spies with dynamite (yep the worst of both worlds...!ammo). There needs to be an effective way of detecting and killing them.

- I think raising the mine limit would help a lot, considering it’s the only effective counter (even though they can be disarmed with a picked up repair gun).

-maybe if spies once detected by an MSA and have a special radar marker or something to draw a defender or team’s attention.

- this is just as expensive, but I found purchasing Liliths and killing myself in different locations to spawn visceriods in tunnels to work well on some maps (considering spies low health). -So maybe a forgotten unit could have a visceriod pet? Or grenade? Or beacon? 

- but no taking away a spies ability to enter vehicles means he can’t steal vehicles; more like remove !commands from a spy would be better (no random vehicle flares for you).

- don’t think high money is an issue in general because overall gameplay is at most moderately effected. It’s not game breaking to afford both a tank and to donate to research.

 

 

 

[der Papst]

We just had a great battle on Winter assault with great teamwork on both sides. Also PP tunnel has been mined and fortified.

All buildings where mined as good as possible - limit again

It ended by a spy-placed beacon on podest in Conyard which was impossible to get in time - even though i have been a technician in a Comanche.

 

Most people had over 20K creds, so it has ofcource not be a problem for the GDI Spy to spend 5600 creds for blowing up the whole nodbase at once.

 

Introduce a usefull defence against this shit or nerf it.

 

There MUST NOT  be a unit who just walks by all defenses and places something which kills a whole base and ends the game.

Edited December 15, 2019 by der Papst

[Guard55]

It was a well played maneuver. Shame that it ended it all.

[der Papst]

20 hours ago, Guard55 said:

It was a well played maneuver. Shame that it ended it all.

It was, but it should not be possible.

Effect, costs, necessary effort to counter (remember: Obelisk, powerplant and nearly all secondery defenses were active) are far more OP than Ezek and Sidam have ever been.