Suggested Balance Changes for Spring 2020 Build

[notDMB]

Not including stuff confirmed to be under work which includes Hind Gunship, Hover MLRS, ADATS, BRDM-2 AT, and several other smaller units. As this is a long post I'll separate it into Nod, GDI, and general/both. Starting with 

The Brotherhood of Nod

- Black Hand Light Tank
1. Cost reduced to 1250
2. Speed increased by 0.5m/s
3. Reload speed improved by 0.3 seconds

- Bradley 75mm ATGM
1. Cost reduced to 950

- Black Hand Laser Tank
1. Cost reduced to 1550
2. Speed increased by 0.5 m/s

- Interceptor Bike Rockets
1. Price to 450

- Interceptor Bike TOW
1. Price to 600 

- Wiesel 
1. Give it a gun depression of 5 degrees

- Stridsvagn
1. Give it left/right gun aim of 5 degrees

- Black Eagle
1. Reduce the size of its turret ring jebus creebus please 

- Phase Tank (minor overhaul)
1. Increase splash radius by 0.5
2. Give its primary fire a damage type of shell/fire for impact/splash respectively. Improve its ability to kill both buildings and infantry with its main fire, while reducing its anti tank ability slightly. Have the alt fire deal damage specifically to kill air units and mark it as SAM while the normal fire would be Incendiary Rockets. 

- Microwave Tank
1. Increase primary fire damage by 50% per shot
2. Increase alt fire range by 45m, increase alt fire damage by 250%, and increase alt fire reload time by 30%
3. Increase Health/Shield to 340/340

- Infrared Stealth Tank
1. Primary fire damage reduced from 64 to 60 per shot
 

Edited February 21, 2020 by notDMB

[notDMB]

Global Defense Initiative

- Sheridan 
1. Alternate fire missile damage increased by 65 shell
2. OR increase its alternate rate of fire modifier from 0.15 to 0.20

- Recovery Mammoth
1. Reduce Health/Shield to 900/900

- ORCA Bomber
1. Increase max speed by 2 m/s

- Stryker Gun/ATGM
1. Increase max speed by 1 m/s
2. Increase acceleration/deceleration by 33%
3. Increase Gun max range by 10m
 

[notDMB]

Shared/Both

- Suggested Graphics Change for Explosions
Make the explosions for things such as the MLRS or Mammoth significantly more transparent? I know that may be a tall order, but the worst part about fighting those things is often your screen being completely obscured by the smoke and flash graphic. 

- Suggested Air Overhaul

Change it so that all air units use a gun/missile profile similar to the Tunguska. Quick spitball would be that the ORCA Escort would have 600 ammo, and firing a bullet would consume 1 ammo, and firing a rocket would consume 10, allowing it to fire up to 60 missiles.  But any MG fire would reduce their total payload, and max loiter time in general. Anti tank variants could simply use up more ammo per missile, say, 40 per missile. It's a little gamey, sure, but the engine doesn't handle two separate sets of weapons well, and the only alternative would be target firing for an AI gunner that has missiles attached to the ORCA/Apache. But that has its own even gamier drawbacks as well as weird interactions like a visible missile pod on a stealth comanche, or an ORCA that gets a stealth crate. 

- More specific Air Suggestions

- ORCA Fighter
1. Increase rate of fire by about 25% 
2. Increase max speed by 1.2 m/s
3. Decrease deceleration by 25%
(Goal, to emphasize the unit as a strafing run style attack craft, and make that more viable. Currently attempting fly by's leaves you with about two missiles left over that will completely overshoot on the same target, making the most effective method of attack to simply hover or move at low speed)

- Banshee
1. Do the above except increase max speed up to 28 m/s 
2. Reduce max health to 600/600
4. Rehaul ammo capacity to 6/12
5. Remove the primary fire and make the alternate fire simply the current alt fire, but consuming 1 ammo per shot
(Banshee is even worse at doing fly by's, the unit handles very poorly, basically a slightly faster Hind. It should honestly handle more like the ORCA Fighter, if anything.)

- Comanche Escort 
1. Remove and replace with GDI's old $1500 credit Chinook
1. The beehive rounds can't hit anything that isn't a Mammoth 36 inch or a ship please for the love of god let it aim up and down or something at least

- Comanche Anti Tank
1. The beehive rounds can't hit anything that isn't a Mammoth 36 inch or a ship please for the love of god let it aim up and down or something at least

- Minor Infantry Change

Infantry that cannot be crushed cannot enter vehicles as drivers. This includes Black Hand Laser Chaingunners and Gunners. While this may seem like an undue nerf to the units, it is for the sense of fairness and to represent how powerful they honestly are as tank drivers currently, and to simply introduce some consistency. They would still be very powerful as field units but they would simply require TEAMWORK. The game features a ton of powerful support vehicles that allow for infantry transport and ammo and health resupply instantly on demand, but no one uses it because !ammo exists and the best infantry can either drive tanks or is a walking tank. 
If I knew it wouldn't be Armageddon I would suggest removing all the commands, !ammo, !character, !support, !vehicle, etc they discourage teamwork, ammo and support especially. The transports in this game are very effective and very much never used because you can call in ammo anywhere even through sheer cliffs and 100 feet underground and you can cliff camp indefinitely with a rocket launcher as a result of this 

- Guard55
1. Remove from the game for being OP 

[FRAYDO]

I do like the overall organization of separating the Nod, GDI, and shared sections. I like this, especially the Nod changes.

[Threve]

I like this a lot. Although..

infantry changes. Absolutely fucking not. These maps are so huge that I’m not going to walk 3 minutes as a laser chain gunner to get some pieced by *Insert KillWhore here*. All these units that are uncrushable also cannot run as fast as others. If you really want to change them a -0.5 m/s is the only thing I can see and even then.. please just don’t. !ammo should be raised to 500 credits however. 
 

- ORCA Bomber max speed is already 50 m/s (although it takes 45 seconds to hit that speed of straight flying). Idk why you want it 2 m/s higher.

- Wiesel is extremely powerful for the price . idk why you would give it any type of buff when it can already 1 hit K/O infantry. Chew down armor on hevavy tanks from far away, hit Aircraft pretty good and Light tanks. 
 

- As I’ve talked about with Kaskins before, please enable vehicle missile tracking back on the Tunguska like before or no one will ever use this unit.
 

Commanche and ORCA guns can no longer really destroy defenses as good as before. I wish they had the old guns back. The Apache also fires the same ROF as before yet the orca fires like it’s on crack. Idk if this is on purpose or not. 

[notDMB]

Suiciding with gunner or just casually driving with a LCG is just so effective. There’s no real drawback aside from cost which is usually never a drawback. 
 

The Melta is a powerful base defense unit, but it doesn’t get used in the field because no one wants to buy a battle taxi. Every time someone does its monstrously effective but no one ever does it. Because you can lone wolf with !ammo far too effectively. And it’s probably too ingrained into the psyche of the game to remove it without people going nuclear. I would say Mobius Infantry are still spammed and they’re uncrushable and cant drive, but it’s map dependent. 

[Threve]

2 hours ago, notDMB said:

Suiciding with gunner or just casually driving with a LCG is just so effective. There’s no real drawback aside from cost which is usually never a drawback. 
 

The Melta is a powerful base defense unit, but it doesn’t get used in the field because no one wants to buy a battle taxi. Every time someone does its monstrously effective but no one ever does it. Because you can lone wolf with !ammo far too effectively. And it’s probably too ingrained into the psyche of the game to remove it without people going nuclear. I would say Mobius Infantry are still spammed and they’re uncrushable and cant drive, but it’s map dependent. 

Mobius is $1,750 so that's a different story.

As for taking down defenses with a gunner, I am all up for defenses being destroyed in any way that they can.  So long as they're not 1 shott'd or something retarded, i think it's ok. Also, with the stupid amount of firepower that stealth tanks of any kind have (no, don't nerf them please.) I think if you buy a gunner then it makes sense. Gunner is an almost necessity on some maps such as Orca Heights where there are 50,000 defenses that can and will one shot you around base if you cannot get up on the ridge or when Nod purchases a massive rush and your team which has and typically will fail to care means that you have to go 1 man army this rush yourself.

The only thing I think that should be changed in this relation is !ammo being 500 so that it's used more tactically or a higher importance is placed on economy. (Which is where this game really functions the best when it's a war over resources instead of units).

[Voe]

I am against making heavy infantry unable to drive vehicles. IA is already super skewed in favour of vehicle play (read: infantry sucks conkey dock). Just because a few of them are actually worth their price (Gunner and BHGunners), doesn't warrant a nerf. Moreover, even a nerf is preferable to the "unable to drive alone" "reliance on teamwork" argument, as you cannot rely reliably on something this reliant on other player's unreliability.

[Threve]

3 minutes ago, Voe said:

14:25:42 <~ikmapsbot> Voe: but why would i need to tell my team about 1 man right

14:25:46 <~ikmapsbot> Voe: they can handle 1 person

 

[Voe]

4 minutes ago, Threve said:

 

[notDMB]

My alternative would be the same line of thinking. Infantry that cannot be crushed cannot enter vehicles. So allow LCG and Gunner to be crushed. I’m not mad about Gunner sniping defenses, more mad about someone grabbing an AMX-13 and a Gunner and driving at you. It’s pretty much guaranteed to kill whatever that person throws itself at. 
 

And increasing ammo cost won’t really change anything significant. The economy is too bloated, and you get far too much money from shooting at bases. Even doubling resupply costs won’t make a significant difference. 
 

Also infantry are pretty great you just are a glass cannon. Infantry kill more buildings than tanks do, consistently, because infantry can go where tanks can’t and are much harder to spot. And stuff like Raveshaw, Gunner, Sydney, hell Adriana is actually really good, they can all take down tanks far their paper superior by playing smart. The Melta will chew through any tank in short order. To use infantry you just need a cliff to block splash. In the open they suck and die instantly, sure, but that’s fine. I’d still prefer if body shotting infantry with tanks doesn’t kill them but there’s too many issues with armor types for that to work. Would require writing custom armor.ini and that’s a lot of work. Also I wouldn’t want infantry to be *too* durable either. Otherwise you’d end up with Renegade X where Nod actually wins more games after it loses Airstrip. 

[Threve]

3 minutes ago, Voe said:

Interim Apex.

Where you get more ways than ever before to utilize teamwork to win games,

                                                                                                                          but more reasons to do everything yourself and say fuck your team.

[Threve]

Just now, notDMB said:

Infantry that cannot be crushed cannot enter vehicles. So allow LCG and Gunner to be crushed.

No.

 

1 minute ago, notDMB said:

Where Nod actually wins more games after it loses Airstrip. 

Infinite Isles.mix 101

 

3 minutes ago, notDMB said:

And increasing ammo cost won’t really change anything significant.

You would be surprised how quickly it adds up. Yes, it's kinda pointless in maps like Winter ASS. But other maps considered.. it really can put a dent on things.

[notDMB]

The only time money matters is if it’s a silo only map, you’re throwing top tier tanks into a meat grinder and dying instantly, or you have no passive income and aren’t repairing anything. 
 

I wager most resupplies are 3-4 times a game, 6 or 7 for the high end, usually just one per trip if you get contested and even less if you’re being counter camped. The issue is if you’re calling in resupplies is you’re hitting things, and you get a shitton of money for doing that. An extra 1 or 2k in resupply costs at the absolute most, you would need to call in 8 resupplies in a single game, would make effectively no impact on anything. Every time I run infantry and aren’t being popped by a good sniper or nuked or crushed by a stealth tank, I’m always floating 10k plus. The economy is too bloated in this game. An extra 250 credits barely passes your passive income from one Refinery and one silo just ticking, doesn’t surpass harvester dumps, doesn’t even matter at all in blue tib maps, and definitely doesn’t matter if you’re scoring points hitting tanks or buildings.  Money in Interim Apex is a Floodplain. 

[Threve]

3 minutes ago, notDMB said:

Money in Interim Apex is a Floodplain. 

It needs to be so that you can purchase upgrades, buildings, turrets, and expensive characters. If the economy was toned down (unless it's by -1 credit a second overall or some mall nerf) , you would have what's occurring in other games where you have to be so careful with your unit that if you get killed it'll be a good 3 to 5 minutes before you're able to do what you want. The economy as it is now allows you to aggressively play tactics that you'd like, call in ammo or support and have credits to upgrade. Changing it in a major way (500 Credits for !ammo isn't major but can and will impact a little and make !ammo more important) will slow the game down so fucking slow that it'll be painful. No, I'm not going to harvest myself to make up for it. And yes, i know this is more predominate on maps that are not named Winter_Ass. But the fact still remains.

Even still, i find myself having to choose other, less expensive units after getting killed by an unavoidable Ezekiel or Infrared.

[notDMB]

Well I’m not calling for the economy to be completely overhauled now am I? Just saying that the issue !ammo represents can’t be fixed by small number tweaks. As long as !ammo exists resupply tanks won’t be used. 

[Voe]

Ressuply tanks don't work on the driver, for whatever reason, so why would I buy them?

Also, what Threve said. This game is meant to have a bloated economy. You have 48k worth upgrades, 6k tanks, and any meaningful late game unit+infantry combos cost you 4k+ every time. Unless you're driving in an infrared all game, only taking engagements you're confident to win, you are going to die. And then, you do need that money.

For me, !ammo drops are crucial when i lose the war factory. When I need to be sneaky and preemptive with my infantry play, i can't afford the luxury of running back to base every time i run out. Making it more expensive (500 is the cost of another infantry piece, which is often difficult to afford in low-eco games), defeats the purpose of it altogether. If you want to nerf it (and i don't know why would you), increase the cooldown.

[Threve]

If I remember correctly, you were telling me on Cold River yesterday you couldn’t buy certain units because I was destroying your harvester over and over. So your economy tanked as a result. 
 

@ DMB 

[notDMB]

Mostly because I was trying something else, I had a huge cash reserve and could have safely tanked and repaired when needed, but I was dying. And like I also said, if you remember, was that when you’re constantly dying without accomplishing anything you do run out of money. The IA economy is a Floodplain. Either you have money or you don’t. 
 

But this is completely pointless and irrelevant. Because I still could have easily afforded !ammo call ins with the passive income without harvester drops and the money I would have gotten with an infantryman just running up points because that’s significantly less than high end tanks or even higher end suicide tactics, regardless of if it costs 250 or 500. 
 

A cooldown increase would be nice. 
Also if resupply tanks worked on the driver they would simply encourage even more lone wolfing. Their design is to encourage team play. You said it yourself, why would you ever buy a resupply tank if you can’t resupply yourself? That’s the mindset for why !ammo will never be removed because this player base just doesn’t really care about playing support that much. The few players who do get repair tanks. And I can hardly blame them, it’s not like you get points or veterancy for doing it. You don’t get a ton of veterancy for repairing, but repairing is the fastest way to make money in this game. Even faster than hitting buildings (though killing them nets even more, but that’s not exactly something you can farm.)

Edited February 22, 2020 by notDMB

[Kaskins]

42 minutes ago, notDMB said:

A cooldown increase would be nice. 

Also if resupply tanks worked on the driver they would simply encourage even more lone wolfing. Their design is to encourage team play. You said it yourself, why would you ever buy a resupply tank if you can’t resupply yourself? That’s the mindset for why !ammo will never be removed because this player base just doesn’t really care about playing support that much. The few players who do get repair tanks. And I can hardly blame them, it’s not like you get points or veterancy for doing it. You don’t get a ton of veterancy for repairing, but repairing is the fastest way to make money in this game. Even faster than hitting buildings (though killing them nets even more, but that’s not exactly something you can farm.)

Falcod use to get RedTide infantry and Supply Truck and killed 1 AGT within the 6 minutes on Industrial Strength. That is why I make it so that it must have a passenger so which take away 1 player off temp from contribution in the base or being a Attacker unit in the field.

I am aware of the Economy thing and is something hard to entirely overhaul due to how it closely based off Renegade where before ya know it you have having 10,000+ within 15 minutes.

[shoverno2]

On 2/21/2020 at 8:40 AM, notDMB said:

- Microwave Tank
1. Increase primary fire damage by 50% per shot
2. Increase alt fire range by 45m, increase alt fire damage by 250%, and increase alt fire reload time by 30%
3. Increase Health/Shield to 340/340

Oh man, +250% of damage...

YOU CRAZY, this will be Ultimate over powered vehicle!

...

Maybe it needs some buff, but not by making it incredibly unfair.

(Infrared is fine, it don't need nerf, just remember it's primary attack having not long range)

[notDMB]

A 250% increase in damage would still have it dealing less damage than any actual tank with a longer reload time than any of them. These buffs would still make it worse than any tank in it’s tier, it would just let it actually interrupt enemy repairs in a deathball scenario. 

[shoverno2]

8 minutes ago, notDMB said:

A 250% increase in damage would still have it dealing less damage than any actual tank with a longer reload time than any of them. These buffs would still make it worse than any tank in it’s tier, it would just let it actually interrupt enemy repairs in a deathball scenario. 

Do you know that high microwave doing high damage? Really good damage with actually really cool cooldown. In close sight maps it's works perfectly cool. As ambush vehicle it's good enough too. Even sometimes saves time to steal GDI vehicle, instead of losing time and higher chance to capture enemy vehicles.

It's just works in right hands and situation. Just don't try to use it in long range combat OR without hide stuff near.

[notDMB]

I don’t have the actual stats on hand but each regular shot deals damage in the 20s in my experience, so about 60 damage for a full “salvo”. With a lower rate of fire than a regular tank. And lower damage. 

[shoverno2]

On 2/21/2020 at 8:40 AM, notDMB said:

Interceptor Bike Rockets
1. Price to 450

- Interceptor Bike TOW
1. Price to 600 

And those bikes need total rework, because them totaly useless. When microwave tank have heavy armor, not bad damage and interesting effect, Nod bikes having just more powerful variants of them. And all because of clumzy move system of bike. And why burst shot really can be useful, when rockets more effective against infantry. And why infiltrator AT having so bad fire rate, comparing to it's so low health/armor?

[shoverno2]

Just now, notDMB said:

20s

Do you mean microwave tank?

[notDMB]

Yes. I mean the microwave tank. Electricity damage is heavily reduced against heavy armor and it’s still not great against medium or light. It takes about four to five salvos to take a prism tank down to low enough it’ll kick out the driver. 

[shoverno2]

20s...

20 seconds??

If that, it's probably not.

And it's extremely effective against light armor, well not bad against medium armor, and not bad at all against heavy armor(but this vehicle need some cover, best variant is heavy team tank).

And it's own best time to attack is when enemy retreating with low health.

...

Well, at the end, it's instant hit any way. It's great bonus actually. And it's more interesting to use something new, except most effective vehicles...

Edited February 22, 2020 by shoverno2

[notDMB]

20s as in twenties. Not 20 seconds. As in each shot deals about 20 damage to the target if it has heavy armor. 

[shoverno2]

Off course microwave tank not armor killer. It's disabler. His most point to disable last 30% of heavy armor at best situation.

There are alots of armor killer at Nod arsenal...

(and, if i don't know false, when armor gone, health take damage as almost no armor, right?)

Edited February 22, 2020 by shoverno2