Category 5 Hurricane

Move on to something else? It's an extra chance to effectively lynch someone. Though I won't say that saving any shot you have holds no merit, if I had a weapon I would be firing now, no questions. Ninja'd

ChopBam, take the shot! ##vote Mojoman

Well, I'm glad the post I made while at work went through. I didn't actually get to see the post after I pressed submit as the page never reloaded, just said "post saved". Combination of my 2001 era laptop and bad wireless at work, I'm sure. I'm calling that Issac tried to convert Mojoman and it failed because Mojoman is mafia. Cults can't convert mafia. The worst case scenario here would be that Issac is the convert and the cult leader is someone else.

I was actually sure there was going to be one new player on the mafia team and it's part of why I went after Killing_You so hard. After I started thinking that it was a 2 mafia game, I dropped the idea. I said later in the same post that it isn't likely there is a town doc role. I suppose it is possible, but it wouldn't fit the APB theme for a doc to be on town. Instead, I'd expect other types of defensive rolls, such as bodyguards or jailers, which can serve the same purpose in a pinch, even if they technically work differently. If you were investigated by a role that checks your papers, you should have gotten a PM indicating that someone went through your things. You never said as much, so this is part of why I don't believe Mojoman. As Jeod already pointed out, a classic fool role's goal is to get lynched. The classic version of this role would instantly win the game and end it. Versions of this role used on the APB forum just guaranteed victory for the fool and continued the game without him. I've always hated this role. I don't think I ever clarified this point, but my role is not a fool. I won't win on lynch and it won't end the game. However, something will happen that makes getting lynched something I legitimately might want to have happen at some point. I'm a little suspect on this sudden claim of Issac's that he stopped the kill when he said nothing of the sort until after I pointed out that nobody had said anything. I also don't believe he would choose his stated target to defend. I also want to state here as I'm late to return to work, that I do not want to see a Mojoman lynch at this point. If his claim is true, we'll know it soon enough.

Alright, I've got a number of things I want to bring up here. First of all I want to talk about night 1. Specifically, I want to talk about how nobody apparently has any news about what happened. Since there was no night kill, it's time to examine the possibilities. 1) The obvious first angle is to assume that the night kill was stopped by a defensive town action. I do not currently believe this to be true. There are not doctor roles on town in this game (Medics are an Allied role, Jeod), so it is not possible that someone stopped a kill by healing the target. Also nobody claimed that they were attacked. This probably also ties in to anyone who may have used a BP role. So something else happened. 2) The next angle would be to claim an offensive town action stopped a kill by preventing a target from taking an action. (Like Voe did every phase a couple games ago) Nobody has claimed that, and the arguments being used today don't seem to include anything beyond what we already argued about in Day 1. Nobody learned anything new last night, so I don't think any town member is responsible for or has any theory based on their own actions as to why there wasn't a kill. 3) If town didn't stop mafia, scenario 3 would be to suggest that mafia failed to make the kill because of inactivity. This would place Wallywood as a suspect, and perhaps also Mojoman as he wasn't particularly active either. However, even if Wallywood and Mojoman were both mafia, I very much doubt that mafia would have failed to kill. Mojoman would have to know that Wallywood isn't around and won't make a kill, so he wouldn't make the mistake of failing to make the kill himself, and there is a pretty good chance there is a 3rd member of the team as well. Somebody would have mailed in the kill. (I say this, even though in 2 of the last 4 games I played, mafia did fail to make the kill because of inactivity...) 4) If town didn't protect, and didn't roleblock, and mafia didn't fail to make the NK, what's left? We go into crazy land to find the answers! Stuff that's so crazy it just might be right! I LOVE this part! My first crazy scenario is that mafia had something they'd rather do than make a kill. Say, for example, mafia has 2 spies and...whatever role would be a scout. The two spies could go out and grab roles to pretend to be while the scout watches someone they think a cop will visit (something possible since a small handful of players openly suggested that I be investigated). It's a defensive ploy that protects the spies from cop roles and also gives a good chance at catching the cop at the same time. A variant of that scenario is where mafia attempts to kill the cop by planting explosives on the target they expect a cop to visit. Again, this could have been done to me given how prominently I was attacked on Day 1 and the suggestions to mark me. Of all the options, I believe that the last is most likely. Mafia either tried to get a kill by planting a trap or intentionally chose to do other things rather than kill. 5) Actually, I have one more crazy theory. What if mafia can't kill until or unless something happens? Maybe they could even be bigger in number than usual? Moving back into the present: I flat out do not believe that Mojoman is a cop. Frankly, to suggest that "I know someone is town but I can't tell you why" isn't exactly concealing anything. It would be stupid for a cop to say such a thing. Hell, it would be stupid for anyone to say unless they wanted to draw an attack upon themselves...or if they wanted to draw a cop counter-claim. And I also don't believe that he'd investigate Killing_You out of all available targets. And then Jeod, if it was a cop soft claim, why point it out so quickly? I was actually so caught up on his "new scum" line that I did miss the soft claim after it and actually said aloud "what fucking soft claim?" and reread the whole day again before I found it prior to making this post. You could have kept that to yourself to raise the survivability of the player that you supposedly think is the cop. And why are you so interested in directing what the cop does? If town actions are left in the open like that, you leave yourself vulnerable to mafia actions that might be able to mess with the results, and I'm quite sure you know all of this. Given that my top theory to why there was not an NK is because of a potential trap that wasn't sprung, I'm suspicious of how much you've been calling shots. Shoot Cat5, investigate Cat5, investigate yourself, investigate Cat5 some more, doc protect the "cop" (whoops there isn't likely to be one) yadda yadda yadda. And going back to that new scum line, does seriously nobody else find that odd? You can't meta-argue about Issac on a scum team from the point of view of "inexperienced scum team" unless you know that somebody new is scum. You can't know that somebody new is scum unless you are scum and it helps if you yourself are (relatively) new. Frankly, I'm to the point where I can't choose between Jeod and Mojoman. I'm actually a bit more suspicious of Jeod than Mojoman now, but flipping Mojoman as scum would clear the 3 people who voted from him on Day 1, which would be invaluable, but it also carries a big risk if I'm wrong and Mojoman really did claim himself to be a cop after only checking one person and getting a town result from it (which would be madness). I'll switch for now. It'll benefit me later if I switch again anyway. ##vote Jeod

Given that we haven't found a single mafia player yet, this statement seems incredibly fishy. GM metagaming aside, how can you make a claim that mafia can't be made of only new players if we don't even know that a new player is mafia? If it were just Issac and two other people (again, expecting 3 mafia based on 25% +1), frankly there would be lots of people he could be paired with. You'd only start to run low on options if there is only two mafia and you already know one of them is new (and not Issac). Only then does pairing Issac with said other newbie become a problem in your argument as that would mean a mafia team comprised of only new members. However, how do you know that there is a new player in the mafia team? You've just implied that you have more information than a town player ought to have, and a town cop who pinged a new player as mafia would have used that information to place actual suspicion on someone. You didn't, so you aren't one. ##vote Mojoman I'm also looking in to Issac as potentially being paired with you (and one other) as he did appear to make an attempt to save you not long after his one-post attack against you, which he hurried to withdraw. It's a common new-scum ploy to make early, weak arguments against a fellow scum mate to try to distance oneself from another teammate. I'm not sold on this angle yet, but it is something I'm watching.

No, I'm totally unconcerned about being lynched. Infact I'll start today the same as I did last day phase and open up with a vote on myself so that I have all options open for later posts. ##vote Category5 That doesn't mean I want to be lynched, though. Indeed, what I want see is reports about what happened last night. For my part, it didn't appear anything happened to me at all, and I also didn't do anything myself. In the meantime, I need to catch up on my analysis. I didn't have time to reset after the lynch and figured I could wait until the night result before moving forward with that. I'll probably post again in a few hours after I've gathered my thoughts. Also, I want to clarify, will there still be a penalty for non-voters if there is an early hammer (hammer by majority vote)?

I would love to keep the game at 48 hours as long as possible. Given how small my window of participation is, it's greatly helpful to me. I can't count on having a full day phase happen on a weekend like this.

Excuse me? Nothing?

Yes, that's a fair point on scum vs. mafia. In most prior games I've played, it felt like most people have lumped anti-town 3rd parties as "scum" and use it as a blanket term, and say mafia when meaning that specifically. That said, I still think it gets confused sometimes. I try to use mafia and town to be specific and scum when I mean anti-town, though maybe I should drop scum as a label entirely.

If it turns out that I am unlynchable, that would not exactly imply that I am a Flame Tower. It would leave that option as possible. Nothing more, nothing less. To find out for sure, the Allies would have to visit me and find out. I like how you say it's a classic Jeodtell. Classics never die! I also find it odd that you just said that your argument against me is that a town role wouldn't want to be cleared, and in the next line you say that you think I'm town. And then you follow that up with saying that you don't have the advantage of meta about Issac, but don't want to use meta on FRAYDO. To clarify on Issac, I'm not sold either way on him. Technically he was scum last game, as an anti-town 3rd party. Regardless of alignment, I don't think he will be of any use unless he changes his playstyle.

As I've alluded to before, this was a ploy to get some action out of you folks, something I knew was likely to happen anyway given how my voting pattern will go. And it's working. We had nothing to work with when I started, and now I've got tons of information to work with and my notepad has almost as much writing on it as it had all of last game, just from analyzing how you guys have reacted to my posts. It doesn't bother me that I have so many votes because I'm not particularly concerned about being lynched. First off, I'll explain again that almost all of my posts will contain a vote. There is a reason I must do this but I will not reveal what it is because it can be used against me if that reason is known. I have to change my vote each time, so voting for myself was a tactical move. It allowed me to place a vote without limiting myself from placing another vote on whoever reacted worst to my vote if I needed to post again. It also was a convenient way to start discussion, so I did it. So far I have this information to work off of. Chaos_Knight tossed another OMGUS vote just as he did last game. Didn't say a word prior. He's also slow to the party in catching what my vote pattern is. Last game Chaos also failed to say much, and when he did, he always seemed to be missing information he should have caught. He's a bit up my scum list so far. I only have two notes for ChopBam. He asked about when the game started in public two minutes before it started. Had he access to a game-related GoogleDoc, he likely would have done it there. He also said he would have voted for me to help me prove I'm town. The only thing I don't like is he also said I might be a Demo Truck,which might make his plan a bad one. I think he's town. FRAYDO is my top target right now. He's gone from thinking I'm a building to worried about what will happen to trying to lynch me anyway. All of his reasons to lynch me are not good reasons. If you think I'm a building, there is no need to check me via lynch. If you think something bad will happen, then it's bad to push for a lynch. Last of all, he posted one minute after (what I thought was) hammer a vote that would have saved Mojoman. I'm not convinced I was the only person who thought that was hammer as there were quite a few people present at that time, including Mojoman. Isaac the Madd is playing exactly as he did before. He's afraid to actually make an argument and stick to it. He doesn't seem to realize that in order to get information you can use, you need to generate discussion. Being silent and puting out paper thin arguments and retracting them at paper thin rebuttal will get you nowhere. I did notice that he voted for Mojoman at a time that put him back into a tie with me. Jeod has quietly dropped the most usable information on this game. His confusion about the role list early in the game soft reveals himself as a unit that is on that list. He initially washed over my weird actions earlier, which was odd at the time, but then seemed prepared to use my claim of "roles that benefit from lynches" against me by referring to the role list before I gave him extra details. He's suspicious of Issac, which I frankly see as an easy case to latch on to as scum. He also has done one of my favorite scum tells, calling out the result before it happens. "If you are town, stop trying to prove yourself and hunt scum" (paraphrased) which frankly sounds to me like you know I'm town (or at least not mafia) and that I'm distracting town from scum. You've also called for people to fire on me, which given that about a third of the players have indicated that I might be a building, a mafia player might be concerned that this lynch will fail and result in a clear town, and that would be bad for them. Also, getting people to fire their weapons early in the game limits the amount of damage they can do to scum and removes anyone who fires from the mafia-kill priority list as they can't fire again. One that I'm confused about is Killing_You. He's clearly afraid to lynch me and also suspicious of FRAYDO, which I think is pro-town thinking right now. However, it could be that he already knows what the result would be (same as Jeod) and is trying to distance himself from the lynch and FRAYDO at the same time. Mojoman is clearly not concerned about anything. He didn't bother to field my votes against him and reacted to Issac with basically a "fuck of, pleb". Basically he doesn't feel like he's at risk, which could mean a number of things. I'm a litte less suspicious of him than I was earlier, but he's still up there. Nodlied is doing a good job. He's asking all the right questions and is reacting like I'd expect a town player to. However, as arguably the best player here, I think he could manage that even if scum, so I don't consider him clear in my mind yet. Nodlied, you specifically asked for information. I think I'm being as transparent as is reasonable while still protecting myself by not revealing things for certain so that scum can't view that information as definitive. Wallywood still hasn't participated. You may have even forgotten he was playing. Fortunately, if mandatory voting is used like I suggested, he should be automatically removed eventually by the penalty for not voting, so there isn't any reason to put any focus on him. ##vote FRAYDO

Not completely, no, because that would place me in a strategic disadvantage, and I obviously don't know who I can trust with that info yet. More of an disadvantage than I already am, at any rate. (If you've happened to see the early stages of the Danganronpa 3 Anime, it's like that.) I'll just say for the foreseeable future, as much as possible, my posts will have a vote in it and it will always be different than the previous one, which may make me look more erratic than I actually am. I like the amount of attention this is getting. This is good! And yes, totally out of character! Have I mentioned that I hate fool roles? Just wanted to make sure I got that out there, Uh, who did I have my vote on last? FRAYDO? ##vote Mojoman I'll be cycling between these two. So far I dislike the reactions of these two the most.

Question: Are you forced to vote on somebody in every post? It's bad of me, but since VERTi60 includes notes and rules that don't even apply to the game that is currently being played, I've gotten to the point where I barely read the post. I better re-read it now. As for the second question, that isn't exactly accurate, is all I will say. To prove that, I will leave this one without a vote.

Did anyone else get caught out by the fact that the phase is 48 hours, not 24? Because I did. ##vote FRAYDO If you are worried about what might happen if I am lynched, why are you pushing for it? Finding a way to get a vote in every post doesn't feel good. Makes me feel Tzar-ish.

If everything switches sides, you'll be lynched and be town. Silly argument aside, I just wanted you to say something. I'd vote Wallywood now, but just like Killing_You last game, I'm not going to be an ass to new players (even though I know he played once before, in a game where I killed him with a Mine Layer, no less. ##vote Mojoman Jeod, it is likely, if not guaranteed, there is at least one role that is not on the list. For example, last game included a rouge piece of C4 that apparently would have won the game if killed. Previously, I was given a Mine Layer role that operated similar to a body guard and Chaos_Knight was a glitched rainbow tree. Also, people can design their own roles using guidelines near the bottom of the OP.

>Wants to end joke phase >Votes om himself But it worked, didn't it? We got our first issue of the game. Of course, of those of us playing, only I know why I did that. Could be that I'm just trying to bait some discussion so that we have something to work off of for today. Or maybe... Could be that I have an unlynchable role and want to prove it straight away to get myself into clear town territory right off the bat. Whether that would mean I am actually town or not, who knows~? Could be that I'm trying a weak gambit to mark myself town "because no scum member would vote for himself." Problem with that theory is that no town member would ever vote for himself either. It's the only move a town member can make that will be 100% wrong. But who knows~? However, there is the potential for roles that benefit from being lynched, similar to the one that would have benefited from being killed last game. Maybe I have a role that activates on lynch? Who knows~? Or, maybe she told me to say there is something about my role that makes it necessary to do stupid things every post. Who knows~? Or maybe it's multiple of the above? Or maybe it's something I'm not saying? Who knows~? ##vote Chaos_Knight

Right. So. It's been nearly half a day, and nobody has said anything that I think is useful or interesting in anyway. Typical Day 1 fare, but I tire of it. It falls to me to end joke phase once again. ##vote Category5

It's confusing because he includes rules for both game types, but this should be a forum game with 24 hour cycles. He didn't have enough support for the chat version. I'll sign up as well.

That's impossible. That vote was supposed to be a tie! But on a serious note, whatever the method, I really just think we need some sort of system that discourages lurking and automatically removes inactive players. A penalty for not voting would hopefully drum up activity enough that the rule never actually matters, but it might discourage people from playing at all. Given the split vote, I'm fearful that the latter might be true. I believe you used a "content post" timer before and I think that worked fine. It might be a knee-jerk reaction, but I just want a game mechanic that either encourages active participation or discourages lurking.

You're right VERTi60. It wasn't inactivity, it was a lack of participation. Bad word choice on my part, but I meant basically what you said. Clearly there are pros and cons to mandatory voting, and there can be a case made either way. The main goal of such a system would be to avoid "Luigi winners" and have an automatic removal system of players who aren't participating. A "Luigi winner" is someone who wins by doing nothing. This happened to me in at least one game where a scum player went inactive but won the game because nobody could ever suspect him as he literally said nothing for several days, so players basically acted as if he didn't exist. If I remember right, the dead players on the scum team called in the night kills for him. Death_Kitty could have been scum this game and nobody would ever have been able to figure that out. On a more general note, a lack of participation makes for a boring game. When I'm one of the more active players, it's a problem. I'm rarely around when the rest of you are so I don't often get to do anything other than make one long post after work, and one or two short posts before or during work (where I have to bring a laptop with me just so I can post during my break). I thought a mandatory vote would be a easy way to nudge people into talking. While being quiet is a pro-scum move, having lots of talking might not help town given that suddenly people can claim they are voting just to avoid the penalty, and people who have earned a penalty might wind up taking up lynches that scum might have fallen to. I'll have to look around and see if such a system is suggested on other mafia sites.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mislynch-and-Lose http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Lynch-or-Lose

No, it's good to think ahead. I just don't expect new town players to do that. That's why I said it was the weakest reason. Experienced players of both types will be watching it closely as it can change voting tactics.

Killing_You, I flagged onto you for a number of reasons, all of which fall under a category I call "Tzar" after a former player by that name. You were way too eager and aggressive and seemed to be digging for info that would be more helpful to scum than town. Here's a list of things that brought my eye to you. 1) Your very first post had three things in it that flagged my attention. First you were nervous. In my experience, new players are more nervous when they are scum than town due to the "Oh god, don't slip" style scum have to follow. You also asked for roleclaims out of the gate and firing weapons. Early roleclaims are often said to help scum more than town, because town can't trust the claims while scum can. Scum effectively get kill-priority list from role claims. (e.g. OWA this game, the only town player to roleclaim was killed almost ASAP). Using weapons at such an early stage would also mean using them at a time of the game where the chance to hit scum is lowest and also set scum killing priority, as people who have fired are a lower priority (for example, scum would have won at day break had they chosen to kill Death_You instead of me. Apparently. I actually don't understand why the scum had only needed to match town size while disregarding the 3rd party. Seems odd. I wouldn't have ended the game there, but given Issac's inability to contribute anything other than a "Oh my god you suck" vote, it may as well have ended there.) So, that was a great start. 2) Your next post included a logical doozy. "I'll vote Voe because if he's Allies, he's a major threat, and if he's not I'll just unvote later". When are you going to learn this? You learn after the lynch, not before. You can't decide to unvote "if" he's town. It implies that you already know what Voe's alignment is. And if you already know what his alignment is, you aren't town. Or you are a town mason with him, but then why the vote bluff? 3) You made a vote, but then backed off because you were "unsure". Welcome to mafia! You are never sure! This looked like a scum trying to back out of getting a lynch record. (Something Voe wisely avoided later that day) Even when I had Voe tagged as scum, I kept looking for alternate scenarios. "If Voe isn't scum, what would that mean? Who else could be if he isn't?" I was imagining a scenario where Chaos and Death_Kitty or Issac were stealthing their way through the game. Same thing happened with you. I thought if you weren't scum, Chaos was. I knew either Chaos or Mojoman was the Allied Spy due to the weapon jamming, was heavily leaning towards Chaos. 4) After that, I've already brought up that you shouldn't have felt that you needed to protect yourself given the suspicious position you were in. Scum don't tend to kill players they think they can credibly lynch. To counter that, some town players will actually intentionally draw suspicious attention to themselves to try to get scum to leave them alone. That's all experience. You'll probably learn when you think you are at risk and when you aren't. 5) MYLO and LYLO is something scum tends to be more mindful of than town, especially because scum knows exactly when that is. This was the weakest of my reasons to think you were scum, but it was one. You seemed to be thinking steps ahead like a scum player might. All in all, though, by the end of the game you were doing quite well. You weren't, for example, confused that lynches kill town players.

Quite a number of things, really. The post where he said "I don't know of any town roles that explode on death, do you" was the line that made me think role cop, for example. This was surely the line Chaos was upset about. Since he was talking about your role, this should have flagged your attention. Allied Spies effectively are role cops in this game. In this case he wasn't the Allied Spy, but the Spy did tell him what your role was. I always wondered why you didn't seem to flinch at Voe knowing your role.