SEM's thoughts on PR

[System Error Message]

1 reason why the lack of players is because this is a free game there is a lack of budget for advertisement and it needs to compete with other free games too.

 

If for example this game appeared on steam it would get a lot more players especially with steam server browser integration.

 

As long as w3d hub games can distinguish themselves from existing genre like cs and battlefield than players will start coming in. I think the requirements shouldnt be restricted to renegade system requirements. GPUs now are way faster and with way less restrictions than the GPUs that renegade was designed for (in which GPUs had a hardware pipeline instead of general purpose shaders as we have now).

 

Essentially this is the source of my rant about RA APB, it is not well distinguished from battlefield.

[Pushwall]

1 reason why the lack of players is because [Reborn] is a free game there is a lack of budget for advertisement

 

But it's on the same launcher as another free game that has a larger playerbase despite having the same degree of advertisement?

 

If for example this game appeared on steam it would get a lot more players especially with steam server browser integration.

 

Are you forgetting who owns the C&C franchise?

Essentially this is the source of my rant about RA APB, it is not well distinguished from battlefield.

 

We could always go back to gamma because that was further from Battlefield... oh wait gamma was a total flop like I've mentioned about a dozen times by now.

[System Error Message]

Well whenever i mention this to other people who play free games none of them know about renegade or w3d hub stuff. Its more like the game just isnt reaching the right audience.

[FRAYDO]

In your opinion, what is the right audience to reach? And what way, other than Steam, would you suggest we go about that? Note that we have a Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube for advertisement and promotional purpose.

[System Error Message]

Streamers, you should try approaching streamers as there are various on twitch and youtube. Get them to review and try your game and give them some shirts too.

 

If more people know about the game than it is very likely the players who would be interested in the game would play it. Approach the popular streamers or those that do indie games and such to give it a try. Even better if you can get multiple streamers playing against each other.

 

to be honest i didnt even know you had facebook, twitter and your own youtube pages.

Edited March 22, 2016 by System Error Message

[FRAYDO]

Irwe has played some APB and streamed, and that's pretty cool. Isaac, a tester here actually, streams occasionally as well. Any particular streamers that you think may have interest in the games here?

 

Our pages are right on our front page. See the shiny buttons to the right. http://www.w3dhub.com/#news

 

 

You'll even see that we do also have our own Steam group. You're welcome to join and bring along others.

[System Error Message]

Try the famous ones, there are various who play various games. As long as they have a few hundred active viewers and do reviews/plays of various games try to see if they are willing to give a few w3d hub games a try. Giving them closed beta access is an encouragement as well. The most common platforms used are twitch and youtube but if there are better ones than you could try that. Some of the famous/popular streamers may only have a few active viewers but thousands of viewers of their recorded videos.

 

Lets play videos are also one you could try as well.

[Einstein]

This thread was split from the Power Plant Function thread to maintain the direction of that thread.

Also, these go here:

Aren't there like 5x the number of players on CNCnet as we usually have on a game of APB or Reborn? If there's people who are still interested in playing the classic C&C games, wouldn't they be interested in this as well? That seems like an obvious target audience there.

 

W3d hub is working on red alert 2, only a matter of time till they get to the recent C&Cs. Its not the fact that its a classic game, rather its more of bringing a newer approach so you can consider the game new even if it is based off something old. Take star wars and star trek for example, they are old but they have many reincarnations many different games that are even new.

[FRAYDO]

I'm not too well-versed with Twitch names and Youtubers; any specific persons that you watch that might have fun playing APB or Reborn?

[System Error Message]

im not too well versed either but there are 2 kinds of streamers, one that streams specific games and one that stream various games as their main business. It doesnt matter if the game is their playstyle or not essentially these streamers are sponsored in some way either by the game (giving them closed beta/early access or game copy or free swag) and they have to stream various games as its how they get their views. Some streamers do have stream groups which connects various streamers and their own website and media pages.

 

Stream groups and streamers who do various games and is their main business would definitely be the ones to approach first. Indie game reviewers are also a good option. Once they've done their review you than need regular streams of the game matches. Despite the fact that the game has spectating feature, streaming ends up being more viewed than server spectating.

 

When you open up twitch and youtube for streaming there will always be sponsored and recommended that you should search through, and there should be some stats somewhere so it can help you narrow your search.

[ganein14]

Well, Markiplier is a well known name. Though I don't think he'd take to a game like APB.

[System Error Message]

I think you should pitch TSR first before APB.

[Einstein]

You want to pitch a game that has many many still-being-worked-on bugs and flaws to a streamer so that he can advertise one of our games to the world while it still has issues? So that he/she will do that thing that most streamers do and bash the crap out of any game that they find a problem with for the next 4 hours while they continue to play for the sole purpose of looking for things to nitpick at? Sorry.....no thats a horrible idea.

 

Don't get me wrong, TSR is a great game at the core, but currently it really needs some love in many areas. After TSR has had its next "overhaul patch", I feel that it will be much more presentable. But in its current state, while it is fun to play (once you understand all the quirks), I would not recommend pushing a streamer into it head first, especially with him/her not knowing all the quirks, and want them to show it off to the world for us. "Oh that blinding thing right there? Oh thats nothing, just a crazy flipped-out tiberium moss texture. Nothing to worry about. Completely normal." - Bad PR 101

[System Error Message]

call it early access . Oh well if you think APB is finished more than TSR than push it.

[Einstein]

call it early access . Oh well if you think APB is finished more than TSR than push it.

 

Why yes, aside from the announcement across many C&C community sites, facebook, and many other places that all say that it is released and finished, I do personally feel that APB is more finished than TSR. TSR is still in major development, whereas APB has been retired from major development.

 

Personal opinion though.

[Pushwall]

Last I checked "Early Access" had a pretty bad stigma surrounding it because you're basically just being charged money to beta-test a game rather than being paid for it, and you can't even be assured that the game will be finished or that it will be any good when it is finished, and it seems to attract a lot of really crappy devs?

 

I bought Starbound 2 years ago, was disappointed, and the core game is STILL not actually complete because the devs don't seem to actually have a goal in mind beyond rolling in early access money. For a game that isn't free, has already been bought by a ton of people, and has a dev team of a not-insignificant size, that's kind of a problem.

 

Then again since Reborn is free I suppose the whole "buyer's remorse" aspect of early access is not a problem...

[Raap]

I think there is still some ground to gain on the home turf.

 

Quite a few C&C project websites have a (small) following, and aren't likely even aware of W3D Hub. Some might have no interest in covering the games since they are a departure from RTS gameplay, others have a conflict of interest in general.

 

Streamers, although a good idea, is difficult to pull off without a 24/7 active server(s). And one or two streamers streaming a few matches isn't going to make a difference in population.

 

The game needs a more steady player base before attempting to go big with streamers. To do that, you first need to solve the problems that causes empty servers in the first place, and that is not purely a PR matter, it is also very much a game design matter (and not always something unique to APB).

 

The main factors in killing packed servers and preventing players from joining:

1. Populated servers see a consistent player drop whenever an infantry map is next in rotation. Solution: Remove infantry maps and re-implemented them at a later date with bases and vehicles.
2. Players refuse to join empty servers and are unable to really organize themselves to get a game going. Solution 1A: Get the chat lobby working. Solution 1B: Implement functional gameplay for player populations 1 to 6.
3. Players leave the game in stalemate situations where they got nothing left to do due to factory destruction. Solution: End the game two minutes after a team loses all production buildings (helipads excluded due to support nature).
4. Players can get bored on some maps during the pre-ore dump waiting period. Solution: On said maps, add objectives or varied attack options that are viable to execute at match startup.

Edit: I don't mean to judge, but I wonder what W3D Hub project priorities are sometimes. The programming team should really consider prioritizing the development of systems that benefit all W3D projects, such as mechanics that help resolve issues like the inability to have map content dynamically scale based on player population in a match. The programming team knows W3D like an open book, surely they could find a way to tackle this issue and develop a set of scripts that can do things based on the population scale.

 

Example script 1: Count players on match start, enable X out of Y pre-set single-spawn vehicle spawns to get the fight going right away without waiting for an ore dump. Re-count every 30 seconds, keep unlocking/spawning X out of Y vehicle spawns as more players join until Y has ran out of the maximum number of pre-set spawners. To prevent stuck issues as vehicles spawn out of thin air, the vehicles should probably arrive via cinematic reinforcements, so a new player joins -> reinforcement vehicle arrives -> new player can get into the action right away (this stops occurring after Y vehicles have spawned).

 

Example script 2: Count players on match start, enable X out of Y AI support units designed to fight other units in the battle regions of the map (not bases). Re-count every 30 seconds, reducing the number of active AI units as more players join by disabling their re-spawn locations (and re-enabling them should players leave). The number of active AI units can be 0 but not greater than Y. The AI could originate from "reinforcement zones" that don't have to be in the same location as team bases.

 

Etc.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Raap

[FRAYDO]

ideas

I'll take some notes down on your suggestions and consider our options. In the meantime, link us to some streamers and Let's Players if you happen to come across some. Together we can get the word out, and everyone is more than welcome to help. And don't just let them know about the games; let them know about the forums too! More players, more forum visitors, and everything is the better for it!

 

Keep the ideas coming.

 

I think there is still some ground to gain on the home turf.

 

Quite a few C&C project websites have a (small) following, and aren't likely even aware of W3D Hub. Some might have no interest in covering the games since they are a departure from RTS gameplay, others have a conflict of interest in general.

 

Streamers, although a good idea, is difficult to pull off without a 24/7 active server(s). And one or two streamers streaming a few matches isn't going to make a difference in population.

 

The game needs a more steady player base before attempting to go big with streamers. To do that, you first need to solve the problems that causes empty servers in the first place, and that is not purely a PR matter, it is also very much a game design matter (and not always something unique to APB).

 

I agree. delta has brought up that there are quite a number of players on CnCNet; it's then a matter of how to best present our community and games to the RTS crowd there. Even then, maybe we can't get their interest because it simply isn't C&C RTS. Project Perfect Mod is another community to consider, although we may run into the same conflict of interest.

 

I get that reaching out to streamers without a 24/7 active server is not a good idea, although perhaps we can invite them on a specific date; say, a game night. It has been some time since we have had one announced, we could see about organizing and setting a date. In that way, should streamers take us up on the invitations they'll come to a packed server and offer some coverage, and maybe we'll see returning visitors and players from that day onward.

 

I would agree with the factors that you present; 2 especially.

 

Keep the ideas coming.

[System Error Message]

a lobby system could help a lot.

 

I could even set up 24/7 active server because i am on a good connection and have unused resources, although linux would be preferred. from US to me is around 100ms and im in the UK. Although i think w3d hub already has a 24/7 server.

 

but you only need 1 24/7 active server to get the players started. For the streamers you organise an event to get them all on at the same time to play against each other.

[Einstein]

We already have a server with nearly 100% uptime. Adding another one would not only confuse players but also make them choose which server to play, thus making the matches smaller. This is why we only have 1 server per game.

 

Also the server parts werent designed for linux, we've been down that road and its much easier to just use windows for serving in this case. (although i do prefer to serve everything that supports it on linux outside of this place)

[FRAYDO]

a lobby system could help a lot.

As I understand, a chat lobby system is one of the features to be added to the W3D Hub Launcher. Understand as well that danpaul88, our resident launcher expert, has more than several things already on his plate and a chat system isn't currently the number one priority.

 

In the meantime, there are other options to get games started should you find the server empty:

 

1. You can join the TeamSpeak @ts.w3dhub.com and look in the W3D Games section; you'll likely find people who will join in. Additionally, you're chatting and playing at the same time, which is way fun in my opinion than in-game text chat alone.

 

2. You can message friends on Steam who have the launcher and ask if they would like to play. For your Steam friends who don't have the launcher or have never even heard of us, point them our direction and bring them over! Introduce them to our website, and invite them to join our Steam group!

 

3. Set up a Skype group chat of yourself and other friends, and send a message through there when you're wanting to play. If enough people were to have Skype and wish to share their information and be added to a group, it may be viable to even have an official W3D Hub Skype group chat for this purpose.

 

Don't limit yourself to not having a chat system in the launcher. Find ways around it to contact friends and others and get people ingame!

 

Keep the ideas coming.

[System Error Message]

When you finally find some streamers, try to get a full server session. Since this is an RTS to FPS convert if you can fit 32 players or even more that would be much better. Organising some sessions (streamers can also reach out to the community to get players to join them if they plan).

 

The other important thing though about streamers is to watch for their review, take note of their positive and negative comments and if you improve upon the feedback they give especially before they release their video they will comment on that in their video so it helps (i.e. the issue has been patched).

 

Im hoping there isnt a hard limit of how many players, vehicles and stuff you can have in the game. I imagine it uses the typical arrangement of player uploads to server and server sends data to everyone. So as long as server has enough upload it should work fine since the requirements increase exponentially for every additional player. Really big matches will attract players so its good for temporary sessions with the right maps but for 24/7 server it should be geared towards less players and with the maps to go with it. However some streamers will like to play the game with a small match instead.

 

If you could at least scrounge up some campaign maps that could also work for events but there would need to be more depth such as more missions (rather than just destroying 1 building for example) such as capturing a point/building and holding it or defending against waves of AI (or player + AI) (basically things you can get from RA campaign that you can play cooperatively that dont involve building or story). Good for temporary sessions but bad for 24/7 server because in C&C its always destroy the enemy base in skirmish.

 

Although i think if w3d ever do come up with a co op campaign just like renegade that would really be nice as you could either follow RA or write your own to compliment the existing RA storyline which is what renegade does.

 

 

In its current state, when you mention RA APB you should mention that it is new, those media guys like to think they're getting the first bite at something even though you may be version 4. The "New" term if you have to explain would be that w3d acquired, changed and than re-released RA APB.

[FRAYDO]

If you glance over at the server listings in the launcher, you'll see the APB server is set to hold a maximum of 50 and the Reborn server can hold a maximum of 40. With the right PR, hitting those numbers is quite possible.

 

The team has done well with using feedback; any and all feedback and criticism is welcome. Each patch that has been released for APB has been based on yours and players' comments, so raising concerns and asking questions here in the forums has been helpful.

 

For the specifics on the hard limit, that's a question for a more knowledgeable person. I believe Pushwall can answer that. If not him, either jonwil or saberhawk. Pushwall, of course is the lead developer of APB, and jonwil and saberhawk are the guys who know all the ins-and-outs of the W3D engine. It's important to note that if either of them say something is impossible to do in this engine, listen to them.

 

Campaign maps are not entirely unreasonable. A past map had everyone on the Allies team protecting the irreplaceable Allied MCV while Soviet AI launched constant attacks. The mission was complete when the MCV successfully deployed. Mission failure was losing the MCV. Don't expect a fully-fledged campaign. Please understand that the effort and time it would require is far too much for the team to undertake reasonably.

 

To say that RA:APB is new would be false advertising? Delta version is new, but the mod itself dates back to 10~ years. If anything, it may be a delight to some to be able to play something that is both nostalgic and fresh; the nostalgia of playing Red Alert and crushing the Allied resistance and then being put in a soldier's boots in this FPS setting, and the fresh approach it brings to the table while still maintaining the original Red Alert goodness.

[Einstein]

In its current state, when you mention RA APB you should mention that it is new, those media guys like to think they're getting the first bite at something even though you may be version 4. The "New" term if you have to explain would be that w3d acquired, changed and than re-released RA APB.

 

Except that this is almost completely and totally false. We really have to be careful with how we advertise things.

 

APB is pushing 14 years old!!! Most people in most far corners of most C&C based communities or otherwise just generic gaming communities have at least heard a rumor of a RA1 FPS project. Even if they've never played it or even bothered to look it up, they've at least heard about it. In other words, we're popular in a sense (which seems kinda backwards I know). We would be hard-pressed to get any streamer to even look at it if we said it was new, because they would most likely know. Worse yet, if we advertise a game that is over 13 years in the making as new, we'll be committing PR suicide and likely be labeled as liars. Streamers are a great idea but lying to them to get them to play our game is not.

 

W3D Hub did not acquire the A Path Beyond project. Nor have we changed it. Pushwall made the decision to move the project that was, and is still under his control, to a new home. Any changes brought about since the move were either done by Pushwall himself or by one other person who was authorized by him to make changes. We do not acquire games and projects. We welcome them into the fold. There is a difference.

 

Lastly, THE GAME IS IN MAJOR (and final) VERSION 3.0.X.X. THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED ALREADY, PLEASE READ.

[Pushwall]

If you glance over at the server listings in the launcher, you'll see the APB server is set to hold a maximum of 50 and the Reborn server can hold a maximum of 40. With the right PR, hitting those numbers is quite possible.

 

Judging from the game logs (again I haven't had much time to play lately) games of ~20 players is not uncommon. There were a few times around the initial release of Delta where it hovered around 30-40 (at that time the server was set to a max of 40 instead of 50) and I'd say it played pretty well at those numbers. And there was a time around February 2 years ago I think, where Reborn peaked at 50 during an event (back when the game was much more appealing).

 

The absolute maximum we can set the player limit is 127 (that is, 63 on one team and 64 on another) but I think the gameplay might start to fall apart with those numbers - partly because so many vehicles and so many people would bog the performance down a bunch, partly because I don't think the netcode would handle it too well either, and partly because there would be so many people paying attention to every possible flank that nobody can make any progress... and the instant people start slacking, a building dies before you even know it's under attack because 6 V2s shot it all at the same time or a horde of hinds/longbows converged on it heedless of their lives.

[System Error Message]

14 years old That is very old.

 

The missions dont need that many objectives, not more than 3 or 4 objectives. For example capturing multiple points/buildings with 3 buildings to capture would count as 3 objectives or escorting a vehicle somewhere with someone driving it and then defending it from AI would already count as 3 but there should be more than just 1 stage. If you take seamist you can give it 2 objectives by giving the player a cruiser and having the player destroy the enemy base with it (balance doesnt count as it is objectives so theres still a chance the soviets can win if they manage to destroy allied base but allies now have a lot more advantage), Having more than 1 objective would make it nice but you can also give both the allies and soviets different objectives so stopping the other from achieving their objective while achieving your objective can also be a game. There should still be some maps with 1 objective though as it goes better with less players.

 

so if the game had 127 players would the game be CPU bound? You mentioned the netcode not handling it well so i imagine it needs more CPU to keep track of everything. I never really see FPS games have more than 64 players not even valve games. I still think 64 players would be sufficient for big maps since even in RA and RA2 there is actually no limit to units but the game is made small by resource.

 

Since you are using an old game engine are you able to tweak it for multi threading or are you stuck with just 1 core? Its not too much of a problem because CPUs now can really clock up with just 1 active core.

 

If you could also divide the maps into 3 categories that would be great because when i first played RA APB i would go through and look for maps that had vehicles so you should divide the maps into infantry only, vehicles and missions within the game if it is possible. Or when a map is clicked you could have the tags displayed such as whether it is infantry only, vehicles, missions and even tech level.

 

Since the game is free and has low system requirements it shouldnt be too difficult to get people to install the game and try it out.

[FRAYDO]

Objectives may be neat, but don't expect those to be added to the current maps. Seamist of course being the exception that it itself has the one objective of defending/destroying the Allied Radar Dome. When it comes time to the release of the APB Source Development Kit, or SDK, you and everyone else will be free to experiment and conjure up new maps and even create mission maps.

 

To the subject of the cruiser; the official stance is the cruiser is not happening. And that is all that needs to be said on that.

 

More CPU is doable, but you have to consider the increased costs that puts on the infrastructure. The servers are maintained at a reasonable cost, and it's best to keep it at that. You may have to wait for an informed answer on the multi-threading/one core question.

 

Divide the maps in what way? Infantry, All Out War, Objective; it all goes into the map rotation. I do see your idea of hovering over the current map in say, the server browser and it showing you if it's infantry-only, AOW, or otherwise. I'll ask if this is possible within the launcher.

 

It shouldn't be difficult to get people to try this out, you are correct. It's the matter of getting the word out, as such is PR. I like to believe we are doing fairly well in that department, and with each day we endeavor to welcome more people into our community. The ideas that have come from this thread and from others in other sections of the forum will prove helpful.

[Isaac The Madd]

Isaac, a tester here actually, streams occasionally as well.

I would like stream more often but, I only get one or two viewers anyways.

[FRAYDO]

Shoot me a PM ahead of time when you plan to stream along with your link and I can share it across our media. Even better if I'm in-game with you!

[Einstein]

Since you are using an old game engine are you able to tweak it for multi threading or are you stuck with just 1 core? Its not too much of a problem because CPUs now can really clock up with just 1 active core.

 

You may have to wait for an informed answer on the multi-threading/one core question.

 

By default, the engine does not support this at all, as it was built when single core processors still reigned supreme. I believe, ECW is the only project here that makes use of more than one thread, but ECW is really a thing unto itself anyway. Its not fully multi-thread aware, but rather just a few operations have been assigned to an additional thread. Jerad2142 is the one to ask for more info on this. Also jonwil and Saberhawk could shed more light on the internal workings surrounding this.