A Path Beyond can we make the support classes more rewarding?

[Ginosaji]

in previous versions the allied support classes such as the mechanic and medic earned a little bit of credits for healing or repairing other units.

 

can we have this back please? for balance reasons they shouldn't earn point for healing, but they could at least earn back some credits to make playing them worthwhile.

 

the old 'jump out and swing the wrench at your med during combat' strat got nerfed which makes the mech now more an support class in field, instead of a infantry class for drivers. unfortunately it's not really rewarding to get a mech and do repairs while your teammates earn all the vehicle kills and points recommendations during that game.

 

speaking of recommendation's is there still the recommendation for repair points?

Edited March 27, 2016 by Ginosaji

[Pushwall]

in previous versions the allied support classes such as the mechanic and medic earned a little bit of credits for healing or repairing other units.

 

can we have this back please? for balance reasons they shouldn't earn point for healing, but they could at least earn back some credits to make playing them worthwhile.

 

Problem there is how easy and effortless it is to generate risk-free damage for yourself on any map that has water, or for infantry, ledges or buildings that you can climb up and jump off. Medics and mechanics will just be able to abuse that to generate a bunch of free credits without also generating free credits for the enemy because they're not the ones damaging them. But since you're saying they shouldn't earn points doesn't that mean you're already somewhat aware of the abuse potential?

[Ginosaji]

i don't see that being an issue in delta. it maybe was earlier when not every map had a silo to supply the players with 2-4 credits every seconds, but in this version pretty much every map has a silo where credits are relevant. also is it even worth it to abuse the credits from healing? i think going out and shooting stuff or repairing the base would be more useful.

 

about the points, i pointed that out because that's how i remembered it and it really seems unbalanced when 1 med/mech kills multiple vehicles and gets the bonus for the finishing blow plus mech repairing points.

 

the thing with the mech now is that he's not that special anymore. he repairs so slowly that you hardly find any use for him as a driver and over all the sd seems so much cheaper now. in beta the sd really sucked you empty on the credits for repairs but in delta its maybe 250 credits for half the med health, so why should i spend 950 on a defenseless mech when i could pick a class that's actually useful when my vehicle dies?

 

on last fissure i've tried the medic and ended up empty on my credits, so i don't see the point in using him either. it's just not rewarding enough to spend 500 credits on him.

[des1206]

I think all support class infantry are already pretty well-balanced these days to see some uses.

 

Maybe the medic is a little underused on non-infantry only maps? Does anybody see medics being used?

[SarahNautili]

Only by Pushwall because he likes the MP5 a lot.

[Pushwall]

It may not be that common but I do see others using him properly at times. Particularly on Pacific Threat where there's no ground vehicles and Under which is really small. But he's certainly getting more use than Gamma and Nuclear Winter (I can't speak for versions before that when I wasn't around but I get the feeling it wasn't any different.) I used to very rarely see APC medic rushes in Nuclear Winter but that hinged on using donations to get an APC before Soviets can get a minelayer Now that the Engineer has a much easier time of removing mines I'd really like to see someone actually pull off a medic + engineer + some form of fire support (sergeants, captains. tanya, possibly even another medic) apc/truck rush and take down a mined building with it and continue to live long enough to cause a little more havoc in the Soviet base.

 

He also has his non-healing purposes (the MP5 is basically the Allied version of the flamethrower except based on direct damage instead of splash; only the other team's equivalent and commando weapons really surpass it in close quarters) but that's not what we're talking about

[Alstar]

But he's certainly getting more use than Gamma

A bit of disagreement. In Gamma medic was armed with Rifle's Infantry M16, which made him a better rifle with additions of medic pack and auto regen. I saw him being commonly used by allied players.

 

I dont think any repairs should give points. Not once not twice allies were able to stand back in the days because they had 4 mechanics repearing vechicles all the time and were spreading gathered credits to give other allied players vechicles/adv infantry. Not once not twice it also turned the tides of game.

[Pushwall]

A bit of disagreement. In Gamma medic was armed with Rifle's Infantry M16, which made him a better rifle with additions of medic pack and auto regen. I saw him being commonly used by allied players.

 

I should clarify then. His medic kit is getting more use. Even when still in possession of a weapon that allows him to be good for more than just the medic kit.

[Pushwall]

I can give medics/mechanics a flat income for healing which is unaffected by the "value" of the unit they're healing to make it less abusable. Here's some potential values to start:

 

Medic healing: 10 credits per second. Since medics heal 10 health per second your teammates have to be losing that much for you to gain that much though. And bear in mind that this is better than the income you get for damaging any infantry. Given the time taken to abuse, it's probably not worth abusing.

 

Mechanic healing: 10 credits per second. Since mechanics heal 75 armour per second your teammates have to be losing that much for you to gain that much though. This, on the other hand, is less than the income you get for damaging most vehicles. Since vehicle health repairs at 37.5% the speed armour does, that goes down to 3.75 credits per second when healing a vehicle that has no armour or has been hurt by things that pierce armour, such as shock damage and oh yes water damage. Hoorah for reduced abuse potential!

 

Points are of course not being given.

 

As far as I'm aware recommendations for repairing vehicles and buildings do still exist, not sure there have ever been ones specifically for infantry. I remember "Good Support" from MP-Gaming which covered both infantry and vehicles though. But last I checked there's no value in the auto-rec config that handles recs for repairing infantry, only vehicles/buildings

[Raap]

I deployed a Mobile Radar Jammer the other day. I got it to what I thought was within enemy radar range (game needs to give clear feedback about this, honestly), deployed, and left it there for quite a while. Besides not knowing if it actually worked properly, I didn't get any additional rewards, despite deploying an MRJ within the range of a Soviet Radar Dome being arguably one of the most tricky support things a player can do in APB. So tricky, I don't actually know of anyone ever doing it against my team while playing as Soviets.

 

I think that, if an MRJ successfully deploys within range of a Soviet Radar Dome, it should start tickling in points for the player who deployed it, until it is destroyed. This will likely mean that the radar jamming script needs to be updated to include a score/credits ticking effect, though.

 

The MRJ is the least used unit in all of APB. I think it could use some love.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Raap

[Alstar]

Not really. MRJ is being commonly used on maps with exposed radar domes, like Pipeline and Bonsai. I often had a hard time navigating on those maps while affected by MRJ, esspecialy knowing that enemy might have phases in the field.

[SarahNautili]

Yeah, it gets really frigging annoying on Pipeline or Ridge War seeing the radar go dark because damn it now I've gotta go hunt down that stupid MRJ before someone uses it as cover to Tanya our WF

[Ginosaji]

i only see it being used on bonsai to blackout the soviets to allow spies to deploy more well hidden flares. i think the MRJ could have a use on zama for the same purpose, but the bases already have a very big size with the pp featured on the map and the coil and gap gen. maybe we could replace the pp with a radar dome as that map gives a few good opportunities to hide the MRJ behind some cliffs or on the other side of the river. wasn't there even a dome on zama before? i have a very faded memory that it was there before, but maybe i'm think of a different map.

 

in older versions people have also used the MRJ in RA_TheWoodsToday, despite the fact that it still required a driver in order to blackout the soviet radar.

 

but if the MRJ will receive a credits/points tick then we should give the Mobile Gap Generator some love too. maybe a amount of credits giving for the amount of units that the driver of the MGG is hiding. that would encourage the driver to hide as many units as possible. the issue with this would be that we'll maybe then see multiple people using a MGG to hide another MGG players to farm credits, so maybe it could only reward the player, if a offensive unit is covered rather than other support units.

[Alstar]

Zama doesnt even have a Dome. It never had one.

 

TWT had one problem with MRJ - you were unable to hide it properly.

[Pushwall]

maybe we could replace the pp with a radar dome

 

I've heard enough about Zama being too similar to Bonsai as it is, does it need to be more similar?

but if the MRJ will receive a credits/points tick then we should give the Mobile Gap Generator some love too. maybe a amount of credits giving for the amount of units that the driver of the MGG is hiding. that would encourage the driver to hide as many units as possible. the issue with this would be that we'll maybe then see multiple people using a MGG to hide another MGG players to farm credits, so maybe it could only reward the player, if a offensive unit is covered rather than other support units.

 

Let's not and instead point out that units under a MGG are getting hit less and therefore generating less points/credits for the enemy, which is pretty much the same thing.

The MRJ is the least used unit in all of APB. I think it could use some love.

 

So none of these things count?

• Getting rid of the prized Gamma "feature" of causing headaches and being a Player Quit Factor
• Making the jamming SILENT to the other team instead so they don't immediately notice unless they happen to be looking at their radar at the time of jamming
• Removing it from all the maps that don't have a dome, so newbies don't buy it expecting it to do something in places where it doesn't do anything
• Making it deployable so you can be a useful field rocket/sniper/mech/tanya and jam at the same time
• Doubling its hitpoints and raising it to light tank speed

It could be better, yes, but seriously? A points trickle? That doesn't make it more useful because points don't actually do anything useful, it just means that matches that don't end in base destruction are a little more likely to result in +1 to the stat total for Allied victories, making it harder to take map stats seriously because we have to consider the possibility that Allies are winning close games on map X because they're abusing Mobile Points Generators as well as the possibility that Allies' defenses/terrain/OP unit makes it easier for them to get points through combat/deny points from the enemy than it is for the Soviets, and whatever thing is responsible needs a little nerf (or something opposite needs a buff). It doesn't even make base destruction easier like removing radar and diverting enemies to bring it down does.

[Ginosaji]

i haven't heard of that complaint. question is if it hurts to implement more key strategies which would lead to the allies victory.

at the moment both maps play pretty much the same for the allied team: allied player buys spy, takes the flare and nukes whatever central building suits for cover, usually the refinery.

the nuke either goes off and the allied team has won that match or the nuke gets disarmed and the soviets either win by points in the end or crush the allied team after several attacks.

 

i have yet to see the allied team winning on zama by base destruction without the use of the flare. i remember that the map got overrun by tanya's and i don't really see such rushes in delta, i'm not sure why.

 

so your argument that certain strategies would make a map more similar to another also falls on the spy infantry unit. nobody would argu lets remove the spy on missile silo maps to give equal chances on both teams so the map wouldn't play like other missile silo maps, although that sounds interesting.

 

 

it's debatable if the gap really makes stuff harder to hit. if tanks reveal themself by shooting i could still snipe away in my v2. i think the support vehicles are good as they are. i only mentioned it in case they would get rebalanced aswell, but it doesn't look like it and it's not necessary imo.

[Pushwall]

I might ask the script guys about making MGGs deployable too, but they'd probably have to be removed from Complex if that were the case because their bubbles cover like half the playing field, both above and below.

[Einstein]

 

I might ask the script guys about making MGGs deployable too, but they'd probably have to be removed from Complex if that were the case because their bubbles cover like half the playing field, both above and below.

 

That, or possibly set a limit like with demos? No more than 2 can exist simultaneously, etc?

[Pushwall]

That, or possibly set a limit like with demos? No more than 2 can exist simultaneously, etc?

 

There's already a limit of 2 MGGs at a time anyway. Because a certain other mod whose name is apparently taboo to mention in comparison to APB has already shown what happens when you let a ton of units with big animated domes run rampant.

[Raap]

 

The MRJ is the least used unit in all of APB. I think it could use some love.

 

So none of these things count?

• Getting rid of the prized Gamma "feature" of causing headaches and being a Player Quit Factor
• Making the jamming SILENT to the other team instead so they don't immediately notice unless they happen to be looking at their radar at the time of jamming
• Removing it from all the maps that don't have a dome, so newbies don't buy it expecting it to do something in places where it doesn't do anything
• Making it deployable so you can be a useful field rocket/sniper/mech/tanya and jam at the same time
• Doubling its hitpoints and raising it to light tank speed

It could be better, yes, but seriously? A points trickle? That doesn't make it more useful because points don't actually do anything useful, it just means that matches that don't end in base destruction are a little more likely to result in +1 to the stat total for Allied victories, making it harder to take map stats seriously because we have to consider the possibility that Allies are winning close games on map X because they're abusing Mobile Points Generators as well as the possibility that Allies' defenses/terrain/OP unit makes it easier for them to get points through combat/deny points from the enemy than it is for the Soviets, and whatever thing is responsible needs a little nerf (or something opposite needs a buff). It doesn't even make base destruction easier like removing radar and diverting enemies to bring it down does.

 

 

You can give it a credit bonus or something at least, for successful deployment within radar range.

 

I'm just stating a fact and proposing a possible solution, frankly, don't shoot the messenger, but rather review the vehicle usage statistics.

 

The MRJ is the least used unit in APB, you can decide to leave it like that, or explore options that boost it's usage rate. It is up to you.

 

 

That, or possibly set a limit like with demos? No more than 2 can exist simultaneously, etc?

 

There's already a limit of 2 MGGs at a time anyway. Because a certain other mod whose name is apparently taboo to mention in comparison to APB has already shown what happens when you let a ton of units with big animated domes run rampant.

 

 

 

Those screenshots display the same issue APB currently has on average every 8-10 matches. I tried getting a screenshot of it myself but I didn't have time to play enough matches to reproduce it.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Raap

[Pushwall]

you can decide to leave it like that, or explore options that boost it's usage rate. It is up to you.

 

Just because it's still the least used unit does not mean its usage rate has not been boosted from before. Besides, something will always end up being the "least used unit". And not every option that is explored is doable. For example one of the ideas I had for it in Delta's development was to make it usable on all maps by allowing it to jam the radar of players within a certain radius of it even if there's no dome at all. So, for example, you could plop it behind a wall in your base somewhere and enemy infantry rushes would have a harder time if they couldn't take it out beforehand because they would lose their radar after getting deep into your base and wouldn't just be able to watch their radar to see when defenders are coming. Which was, according to jonwil, not doable. So I had to just can it from all non-dome maps. :/

 

Those screenshots display the same issue APB currently has on average every 8-10 matches. I tried getting a screenshot of it myself but I didn't have time to play enough matches to reproduce it.

 

If that's the case then you'd be better off trying to pin down what unit or what map causes it as I did in that report. "Here's a thing that happens at complete random!" doesn't help anyone especially since it doesn't even lead to crashdumps. And since you are apparently the only person with this issue...

[Raap]

 

Those screenshots display the same issue APB currently has on average every 8-10 matches. I tried getting a screenshot of it myself but I didn't have time to play enough matches to reproduce it.

If that's the case then you'd be better off trying to pin down what unit or what map causes it as I did in that report. "Here's a thing that happens at complete random!" doesn't help anyone especially since it doesn't even lead to crashdumps. And since you are apparently the only person with this issue...

 

It can happen to any vehicle, on any map. The moments it occurs at unfortunately is mostly unpredictable, besides generally occurring after several matches.

 

It's hard to say if I'm the only person who has the problem. Not everyone reports issues.

[ganein14]

You know, I recall something from vanilla Renagade campaign that the Nod comm centers would jam your radar until you destroyed it.

[Einstein]

You know, I recall something from vanilla Renagade campaign that the Nod comm centers would jam your radar until you destroyed it.

 

Yes, second mission. Don't think that was AOE though...

[SarahNautili]

It was. Becuase every time there was a Comm Center in vanilla Renegade's campaign (second mission, the Volcano map, Tomorrow's Technology Today), if you got to within a certain range of it your radar went down till you destroyed it or the local power plant.

 

Or got back out of range, I think?

Edited March 30, 2016 by SarahNautili

[Einstein]

Would be worth testing. I think it might just be an effect activated by you progressing to a certain point in the campaign. Though in campaign, the way I understand it, there are things happening in the background that dont happen at all in a normal multiplayer match. And if it does seem to have an AOE effect? It could just be activated map-wide (for all players if it wasn't a SP mission) when you step into a script zone or something.....could be super hacky haha.

[ganein14]

I think it'd be worth looking into just to see if what pushy wanted to do with the MRJ is feasible at all or just a pipe dream.