Event [Complete] RA:APB-themed Mafia game III

[moonsense715]

As far as proving yourself, the only way really anyone has to prove themselves is to die. Everything else could be a ploy.

There are plenty of ways to prove myself.

- E.g. if I don't get a training and use Fortify then KY scouts me at night (when it becomes available for him) then confirms the action in the morning, that proves my Rifle Soldier role (allies don't have a Rifle Soldier).

- Secondly, if KY becomes a Starshina/Officer, he can interrogate me or check my papers. Now you could argue his finding could be false if I was a Spy but don't forget my weapon was NOT stuck when I shot. So his findings will be true.

- Thirdly, if I finally get a little trust and receive a training, I could get a soviet-only role and do night actions with it (e.g. visiting you) so you could confirm the action yourself.

 

And lastly, I guess the entire town doesn't care how many people survive the game in the end when it wins, but I'd like to go for proving my role to you and clearing KY by investigations (or confirming his alliedness, although I still think he's town) . Then we can start killing/reviving a building.

 

I'll think about what role/action could be the most reliable proof and I ask you to do the same (unless you hate me for some other reason?).

[Category 5 Hurricane]

While that all sounds good and all, there are some problems with that.

 

You're operating as if nobody could disrupt this chain. I'm certain a mafia player would get in the way of this, and it doesn't matter who it is.

 

Any role Killing_You chooses cannot be used until the next day (and therefore the night ability can't be used until the next night). So, sure, we could go and have Killing_You go pick up a investigation role, and then he'd be killied during the night now that nobody can be scouting the person doing the kill. And then the argument would be "Moony did it because he was going to be pegged as mafia" and your argument would be "I'm being framed!" Doesn't even matter if it is you or Jeod that makes the kill, the arguments would be the same. In the case that Jeod is mafia, we would lose that game. In short, we'd be in exactly the same position as we are now, with one less person. *All of this applies as long as Killing_You is not mafia.

 

If we lynch you and you flip town, we know that one of the players we think is clear town, isn't. Or the alternative crazy land that Jeod is proposing is the solution and the game is continuing even though we already met our victory condition.

[Chaos_Knight]

Ok, so my ideas so far:

- KY being a masterful scum, and shooting Nodlied was a gambit. Seems like a silly thing to do at 4v2, he also chose to scout WallyMoon rather than, well, doing about anything else. Like NKing me or Cat5.

- WallyMoon being a scum. He knew he'd be under the scope so he didn't do anything. Logical? I guess, but doesn't explain his behavior and eagerness to even die to prove his alignment.

- Cat5 fooling everyone. ChopBam confirmed him though. As for why only HT? Well, we never had non-crazy-custom soviet vehicles besides HTs.

- Me fooling everyone. Yeah, no. I am good but not a miracle worker.

- Jeod being a pillbox. Keeps insisting on being a Flame Tower. No actual proof of either besides being able to shoot and being unlynchable. Now he also said an interesting thing. "Buildings cannot visit". And look at that, we apparently had 2 allies and 0 NKs up until Nodlied sent ChopBam to Einstein knows where.

 

Top suspects:

Jeod and WallyMoon.

On the bright side we can bring Jeod back if I am wrong.

[moonsense715]

From the town's viewpoint as a whole, don't forget that if either KY or me are lynched and we flip town then the mafia kills the other one of us, then you can not kill the mafia player because you are all buildings.

[Chaos_Knight]

Oh and keep in mind that losing both KY and MoonWood would result in both of us being utterly useless and helpless.

@Cat5

From the town's viewpoint as a whole, don't forget that if either KY or me are lynched and we flip town then the mafia kills the other one of us, then you can not kill the mafia player because you are all buildings.

Heh. Talk about the same idea coming at the same time

[Category 5 Hurricane]

Having a game setup that allows the mafia to win by town exhausting it's options rather than actually failing to scum hunt is just begging for it to happen. Yeah, sure, let's make a game where the mafia (apparently) can't night kill except on rare occasion, but to balance that we and add a cult, and make it so that mafia can't be lynched so town has to use their limited supply of unreliable weapons to take them out, even if they might use them on each other or even the cult, and no guarantee that the roles that hand out class changes or refills aren't taken out early or even wind up successfully landing on town roles that don't wind up being converted to cult before they use their weapon. (e.g. Chaos didn't find a valid target until N3). That'd be a brilliant setup. It's possible for a perfect town to lose in that scenario just off of RNGesus, so don't be surprised if it happens. With the cult only having 6 roles they could convert, it's almost like the game would be designed to give all sides very little chance of winning (but someone has to eventually).

 

That would be a terrible setup, and I don't believe VERTi60 would do it. If we do believe he would do it, then we have to take a shot a Jeod before we lynch Moony. Frankly, this call to repair Nodlied just sounds like either a way to delay the game until the Vortex comes into play, or a way for mafia to sneakily win when something goes wrong. Jeod is still the one who has placed the most pro-mafia arguments and if I cast aside the game meta argument that mafia can't be unlynchable, then he'd be the #1 suspect.

[Chaos_Knight]

Having a game setup that allows the mafia to win by town exhausting it's options rather than actually failing to scum hunt is just begging for it to happen. Yeah, sure, let's make a game where the mafia (apparently) can't night kill except on rare occasion, but to balance that we and add a cult, and make it so that mafia can't be lynched so town has to use their limited supply of unreliable weapons to take them out, even if they might use them on each other or even the cult, and no guarantee that the roles that hand out class changes or refills aren't taken out early or even wind up successfully landing on town roles that don't wind up being converted to cult before they use their weapon. (e.g. Chaos didn't find a valid target until N3). That'd be a brilliant setup. It's possible for a perfect town to lose in that scenario just off of RNGesus, so don't be surprised if it happens. With the cult only having 6 roles they could convert, it's almost like the game would be designed to give all sides very little chance of winning (but someone has to eventually).

 

That would be a terrible setup, and I don't believe VERTi60 would do it. If we do believe he would do it, then we have to take a shot a Jeod before we lynch Moony. Frankly, this call to repair Nodlied just sounds like either a way to delay the game until the Vortex comes into play, or a way for mafia to sneakily win when something goes wrong. Jeod is still the one who has placed the most pro-mafia arguments and if I cast aside the game meta argument that mafia can't be unlynchable, then he'd be the #1 suspect.

This sounds like a war of attrition really.

Well, both you and I can produce shooting units, and both production roles were given to veterans.

So 2 town production buildings, 2 scum buildings, 1 viceroid and 5 poor bastards who would have to do most of the work or get eaten alive.

Hm. Come to think of it, it can make some sense.

[Jeod]

Oh my God you can't be serious. Okay, I just woke up. Lemme grab some coffee, and then you clowns are in for it.

[moonsense715]

If I was a building, I wouldn't oppose being shot, if there was a promise to revive me with an Engineer.

[Chaos_Knight]

Oh my God you can't be serious. Okay, I just woke up. Lemme grab some coffee, and then you clowns are in for it.

Well, go ahead, my hexagonal friend.

[Jeod]

Let me be clear: I am a Flame Tower.

 

-I chose to use my gun in an attempt to shoot Mojoman rather than save it for a bigger threat when I knew Mojoman was going to die anyway

-As an Allied Defense, I would have hidden my role for as long as possible since I would shoot Soviet and third party visitors (I didn't)

-I didn't hammer Nodlied when I could have (when I mistakenly thought it would be hammer) to save him since he was a building

-I keep pushing for Nodlied or Cat5 to be shot and leave it to a vote (in laying out my theories, I even list that Nodlied could be a chronosphere)

-By this point later in the same day, I am gravitating towards a Nodlied shot. This is later confirmed when I vote to shoot Nodlied

-I was happy that Killing_You decided to take action before waiting for our deadline

-I am open with what happens if I'm an Allied Defense; I would probably not even mention this if I were scum

If I was a building, I wouldn't oppose being shot, if there was a promise to revive me with an Engineer.

 

I don't oppose being shot normally. If the chronosphere repair theory is true (and I think it might be based on my POV right here), then there is no time for me to be shot and revived. Even if I wasn't revived, there still wouldn't be time, and if the theory is wrong, it isn't safe for me to be dead.

[Chaos_Knight]

If I was a building, I wouldn't oppose being shot, if there was a promise to revive me with an Engineer.

Exactly.

If Jeod is town, I'll just give someone a ticket to revive him on the next night.

[Jeod]

 

If I was a building, I wouldn't oppose being shot, if there was a promise to revive me with an Engineer.

Exactly.

If Jeod is town, I'll just give someone a ticket to revive him on the next night.

 

 

YOU NEED TO PUT YOURSELF IN MY SHOES AND SEE WHY I'M ONLY FOR THE CRAZY CHRONOSPHERE THEORY BECAUSE I KNOW I'M TOWN.

Chaos is fucking ignorant on anything I'm saying because he's dead set on me being scum. He won't have it any other way. That's not how a clear should think.

[Chaos_Knight]

-I chose to use my gun in an attempt to shoot Mojoman rather than save it for a bigger threat when I knew Mojoman was going to die anyway

Self-replicating cult is as much of a threat to scum as it is to town.

 

-As an Allied Defense, I would have hidden my role for as long as possible since I would shoot Soviet and third party visitors (I didn't)

As a Soviet Base Def you just outed yourself completely and made your existence (scum trap) pointless. You are basically a paranoid gun owner but with a target filter. If anything you should've claimed something enemy is likely to target like a bodyguard.

-I didn't hammer Nodlied when I could have (when I mistakenly thought it would be hammer) to save him since he was a building

-I keep pushing for Nodlied or Cat5 to be shot and leave it to a vote (in laying out my theories, I even list that Nodlied could be a chronosphere)

About this I have an idea really.

Congratulations comrades, we have found and destroyed allied scum! Although comrade Stalin won't be happy we destroyed a valuable piece of Allied technology we were seeking for so long!

This heavily implies that there might've been a second option.

What if lynching him actually "captured" him. He would've been likely removed from the game still not to out the scum buddy but something tells me that the Vortex might've not happened that way.

 

-I am open with what happens if I'm an Allied Defense; I would probably not even mention this if I were scum

Except for

Scouted Wallymoon last night, he came up as doing nothing. He's in the clear.

He never scouted you.

 

As for now, I need to take my leave.

 

Also yes, I am stubborn

 

Cat5 also considers you #1 scum, he just can't accept the concept of unlynchable scum, so it's not just me.

[Killing_You]

Hey, Chaos, how many of those packages do you have left?

[Jeod]

You're too stubborn and it'll cost us the game. I'll start from the bottom:

 

1. Even mentioning that Killing_You can always scout me to see if he dies is something I as scum wouldn't want to give out.

2. Lynching Nodlied to capture him when there's a Barracks that gives out an Engineer role? You're reaching for straws.

3. Outing as Flame Tower early is still townier than being a Pillbox and waiting till the last second. Besides, I felt the circumstance called for it.

 

You're grasping at straws, bro. Cat5 considers me #1 scum if Verti's crazy game setup is true and it isn't.

As crazy as the chronosphere repair theory is, it's something that can be tested without any risk on town's part--if it's done correctly. It requires the full cooperation of Chaos, KY, and Moonsense. If we try it first, and it doesn't work, then I'll advocate lynching Moonsense since he's the scummier of himself and KY. If one of them is scum and fucks up, then we know which one of them to lynch.

 

If KY is scum and refuses to shoot Nodlied after he's revived, then Moonsense tries shooting Nodlied with the engineer pistol, we lynch KY and Chaos gives Moonsense a Sniper rifle assuming Nodlied isn't shot dead. As I said before, I'm willing to bet Nodlied can't chronoshift every night, and even if he became fully repaired, the chronosphere still needs to charge.

And, for the cherry on top, I'll get even crazier. In case this theory wasn't safe or insane enough, what if using an Engineer on Nodlied makes him a Captured Chronosphere? It's worth trying from all angles.

[Chaos_Knight]

Hey, Chaos, how many of those packages do you have left?

We are at D5 so I have 6 packages left.

 

You're too stubborn and it'll cost us the game. I'll start from the bottom:

Eh, if I see someone scummy, I just don't let go until I get compelling evidence that I am wrong or right. Esp. in a scenario like this.

 

1. Even mentioning that Killing_You can always scout me to see if he dies is something I as scum wouldn't want to give out.

Well, to be fair, watchers and trackers don't get killed by the paranoid gun owners in normal mafia, and sniper is basically a tracker.

2. Lynching Nodlied to capture him when there's a Barracks that gives out an Engineer role? You're reaching for straws.

Meta: Except for there really isn't a proper capture mechanic in APB per see.

Lore: It wasn't the wrench which capped buildings in RA1 (the icon was different).

Game logic: Engineer wrench is said to repair and bring back stuff. It would also fall under "bastard game design" to have such hidden abilities AND not have said role "spawn" from the start.

3. Outing as Flame Tower early is still townier than being a Pillbox and waiting till the last second. Besides, I felt the circumstance called for it.

Well, yea, being a Soviet Flame Tower is about 100% more town than being an Allied Pillbox. Thank you, cap!

 

You're grasping at straws, bro. Cat5 considers me #1 scum if Verti's crazy game setup is true and it isn't.

There's nothing straw grasping about pressuring a player whose only redeeming quality is being unlynchable. Nothing personal.

 

As crazy as the chronosphere repair theory is, it's something that can be tested without any risk on town's part--if it's done correctly. It requires the full cooperation of Chaos, KY, and Moonsense. If we try it first, and it doesn't work, then I'll advocate lynching Moonsense since he's the scummier of himself and KY. If one of them is scum and fucks up, then we know which one of them to lynch.

Just as safe as shooting you, fully revealing if you are indeed clear or not and then reviving you. It would take a bit of time, true, but it would ensure that we aren't stuck with a scum building and no means to take it down.

 

If KY is scum and refuses to shoot Nodlied after he's revived, then Moonsense tries shooting Nodlied with the engineer pistol, we lynch KY and Chaos gives Moonsense a Sniper rifle assuming Nodlied isn't shot dead. As I said before, I'm willing to bet Nodlied can't chronoshift every night, and even if he became fully repaired, the chronosphere still needs to charge.

That's some in-depth Chronosphere knowledge

Ok, I'll let that one slide. But the problems remain such as:

- RNGesus

- KY being scum and still shooting Nodlied. Didn't stop him the 1st time.

- The whole idea being a fiasco: either the game continues, Vortex isn't stopped, Vortex causing GG earlier, cyborg invasion, etc.

 

And, for the cherry on top, I'll get even crazier. In case this theory wasn't safe or insane enough, what if using an Engineer on Nodlied makes him a Captured Chronosphere? It's worth trying from all angles.

As I said earlier, this falls under "Bastard game design". I doubt Vert would do THAT to a main game.

This in fact is even less likely than a scum building, as counter(s) to these exist from D1 (guns and gunsmith) while there was no engie as far as I can see at the start.

[Jeod]

Um..you're a Barracks. You can make an engi. The idea is that the vortex is stopped and the game ends. If the game continues, then we know one of KY and MS is scum.

[Killing_You]

So, right now the current plan is:

-Chaos sends a package to moonsense Night 5

-Moony trains Engineer

-Moony repairs Nodlied Night 6

-I shoot Nodlied Day 6

 

Given Jeod's scummy behavior (and tbh somewhat weak defense), I'm beginning to think he could be a missing element. It's possible that the chronosphere repair idea is a wild goose chase. One that could give some interesting results.

 

I think we can work the following into our plan:

 

-I shoot Jeod now. If he flips scum, GG. If he flips town, we still have plenty of time left for the rest of the plan.

-Chaos resupplies me Night 6, the same night moony repairs Nodlied.

-If, for some reason, moony either autodeclines the package or opts to do something other than repair Nodlied, we lynch him.

 

Pretty foolproof if you ask me. The only possible flaws would be an incorrect way to stop the vortex (I don't think there are other ideas that we have), or Cat5 is scum (which is highly doubtful, almost impossible).

[moonsense715]

-I shoot Jeod now. If he flips scum, GG. If he flips town, we still have plenty of time left for the rest of the plan.

-Chaos resupplies me Night 6, the same night moony repairs Nodlied.

Don't you mean repair Jeod? If he's proven town, the idea was to instantly bring him back. Repairing Nodlied instead first would make the allied team too strong.

[Chaos_Knight]

 

-I shoot Jeod now. If he flips scum, GG. If he flips town, we still have plenty of time left for the rest of the plan.

-Chaos resupplies me Night 6, the same night moony repairs Nodlied.

Don't you mean repair Jeod? If he's proven town, the idea was to instantly bring him back. Repairing Nodlied instead first would make the allied team too strong.

 

Agreed, if Jeod is town, we need him back before bringing Nodlied in or risk going 3v2 on scum.

Though I am going to be honest. I seriously doubt that Vortex can be removed by a chronosphere to begin with. It might be more of a time limit for us to wrap is all up, which would make sense IF scum can't really kill at night.

[Jeod]

 

-I shoot Jeod now. If he flips scum, GG. If he flips town, we still have plenty of time left for the rest of the plan.

-Chaos resupplies me Night 6, the same night moony repairs Nodlied.

 

Don't you mean repair Jeod? If he's proven town, the idea was to instantly bring him back. Repairing Nodlied instead first would make the allied team too strong.

Yep. And my defense isn't weak. I've yet to see any of it rebutted with scummy behavior. Most of the scummy behavior is just from suggesting the crazy stuff, which isn't even outside the realm of possibility.

[Killing_You]

Makes sense to me. Although, how much of a time limit is the vortex really going to be?

Mafia edit: that was meant for Chaos. Damn ninja

[Jeod]

Given that the vortex zapped Fraydo's grave today, I'd say we have two nights.

 

Tomorrow -> Isaac

Day 7 - Mojoman

 

We don't have graves for ChopBam, who was chronoshifted, and we shouldn't speculate on Nodlied, who is a building and is also a chronosphere that started all this.

Sorry, two days and three nights. We'll need the third night to figure out what to do if shooting Nodlied does nothing or if we miss. If we're to shoot and revive me as well, we'd need four nights, which we don't have.

[Chaos_Knight]

Makes sense to me. Although, how much of a time limit is the vortex really going to be?

Mafia edit: that was meant for Chaos. Damn ninja

Hard to predict.

It could go grave after grave. Or it could just hit us tomorrow and cause a GG.

Not only I don't know anything about Vortex behavior in this game, in RA1 they moved completely randomly.

[Killing_You]

Given that the vortex zapped Fraydo's grave today, I'd say we have two nights.

 

Tomorrow -> Isaac

Day 7 - Mojoman

 

We don't have graves for ChopBam, who was chronoshifted, and we shouldn't speculate on Nodlied, who is a building and is also a chronosphere that started all this.

Sorry, two days and three nights. We'll need the third night to figure out what to do if shooting Nodlied does nothing or if we miss. If we're to shoot and revive me as well, we'd need four nights, which we don't have.

And let's say this crazy theory of yours doesn't work. We won't have a contingency for either you or moony being scum. Pretty easy scum win one way or another.

 

 

 

Makes sense to me. Although, how much of a time limit is the vortex really going to be?

Mafia edit: that was meant for Chaos. Damn ninja

Hard to predict.

It could go grave after grave. Or it could just hit us tomorrow and cause a GG.

Not only I don't know anything about Vortex behavior in this game, in RA1 they moved completely randomly.

 

Also a good point. Heck, for all we know, it could be GG tonight.

[Chaos_Knight]

-I shoot Jeod now. If he flips scum, GG. If he flips town, we still have plenty of time left for the rest of the plan.

-Chaos resupplies me Night 6, the same night moony repairs Nodlied.

-If, for some reason, moony either autodeclines the package or opts to do something other than repair Nodlied, we lynch him.

 

Pretty foolproof if you ask me. The only possible flaws would be an incorrect way to stop the vortex (I don't think there are other ideas that we have), or Cat5 is scum (which is highly doubtful, almost impossible).

I have an even better idea.

Could Cat5 make you a HT? Then I can make WallyMoon a sniper on the night of bringing Nodlied so we'll have 2 shots at taking him down.

That's implying that Vortex won't hit us earlier and that Jeod is town.

[Jeod]

That is also possible. We're between a rock and a hard place here.

[Chaos_Knight]

 

And yes, in the Nodlied recovery plan we should still bring Jeod back before Nodlied unless we'll get a specific warning about the impending doom.

[Jeod]

 

-I shoot Jeod now. If he flips scum, GG. If he flips town, we still have plenty of time left for the rest of the plan.-Chaos resupplies me Night 6, the same night moony repairs Nodlied.-If, for some reason, moony either autodeclines the package or opts to do something other than repair Nodlied, we lynch him. Pretty foolproof if you ask me. The only possible flaws would be an incorrect way to stop the vortex (I don't think there are other ideas that we have), or Cat5 is scum (which is highly doubtful, almost impossible).

I have an even better idea.Could Cat5 make you a HT? Then I can make WallyMoon a sniper on the night of bringing Nodlied so we'll have 2 shots at taking him down.That's implying that Vortex won't hit us earlier and that Jeod is town.

That's assuming Moonsense is allowed to both repair the chronosphere AND choose a new class in the same night. We don't know if that's possible, do we?