Games Vanilla-Chocolate Twist Mafia

[Sunflower]

Like honestly just the idea that I would bus Orange is really pissing me off.

[TheIrishman]

Just now, Sunflower said:

Like honestly just the idea that I would bus Orange is really pissing me off.

Bussing your teammate if you're both Scum isn't a bad thing as long as they're cool with it, but I don't think it's likely at all. You two weren't even under suspicion before you revealed your investigation. And even if you did have anything to gain, it would've been better to wait another night or two, not to mention how much more useful it would've been for Orange to keep his daykill until towards the end of the game. The chance of Sunflower being Town imo is maybe 1%.

[Sunflower]

Well I wouldn't be cool with it. If I was a scum, I'd want to get through it together with my partner.

[Shade939]

17 minutes ago, Sunflower said:

Shade I'm just gonna start off by repeating again in like the strongest possible terms that I would not bus Orange. He's my friend and like the main reason I'm even playing is to keep him company during his surgery recovery. It wouldn't have been just any bus either. It's not like he was going down with the ship. He was pretty much a minorly suspicious null read (which is exactly why I investigated him - also because I thought clearing him as mafia would help the team and because I have trouble telling myself he's scum so I wanted to know for sure). If I bussed there, it would have just been totally out of the blue, and it's kind of offensive to me to even consider I would do that.

But to answer your questions:

1) I did the last minute vote on purpose to try to get more information to see how players would react to thinking I wasn't around to vote.

2) I thought the scum would kill Jeod because I figured they would assume he was the person I would investigate because you literally asked me who I thought was the most suspicious player and I said I thought it was Jeod.

To counter your first point, it doesn't make sense to bus Orange just to win the game, only way it'd make sense is if there's some out of game reasoning for him to basically want out of the game.

1) It's just as credible that your vote would have fallen on any player that was being voted up, and you were holding your vote to try and make certain a lynch did happen.

2) I'm surprised that I've actually completely overlooked that angle from a reason why Jeod might have been killed...

At the moment Sunflower, as much as you can claim to be a Cop, it's a fact that your ability hasn't resulted in any Mafia players being cleared of suspicion, which is statistically unlikely to say the least...

[Sunflower]

FRAYDO was alive when I investigated him, but I couldn't exactly come out and say so. I investigated him because I remembered a couple times in past games where we mislynched him because of an honest mistake he made like accidentally using the wrong word or something. But at the same time, I think he can be good at reading players. So I thought it would be handy if he came under suspicion that I'd be able to back him up (or at least I could try to steer the votes away from him if it was too early to reveal). The scum would have NKed me that night if I said anything. I was doing calculations in my head, and I decided that the second investigation was the best time to reveal. I was going to do that even if I didn't find a scum that night because I thought the chance that I'd be killed and not be able to reveal any of my reports was too risky.

Like I said, I investigated Jeod because I thought he was the most suspicious, and I was so upset because I thought like everything was on me to find the scum and because I thought they'd kill him if I was wrong, so I was crushed about that because I thought I let everyone down.

This turn, I investigated Cat 5 because I think he is incredibly suspicious for all the reasons I've stated. He claimed to be silenced in a basics game and it never happened to anyone else. He tried to say that Irish was a godfather before I even tried investigating him. Gee I wonder why he would do that? Maybe it's because he knew that if I investigated Irish and found out he was Mafia that he'd be in the sorry position of trying to convince Irish that you're really the scum and not him. Like even look at what Cat 5 did at the start of today. He claimed BP, and he didn't even consider the idea that you killed him. He immediately jumped on Irish because he's been trying to set up Irish for this move all along. Unlike Irish who's been willing to consider either Cat 5 or you as possible suspects, Cat 5 has only ever considered Irish. He's just really really suspicious.

[Shade939]

6 minutes ago, Sunflower said:

He tried to say that Irish was a godfather before I even tried investigating him.

Mind finding a quote to prove that point?

[Sunflower]

On 5/5/2018 at 1:04 AM, Category 5 Hurricane said:

I agree with the idea of going for a nolynch. It certainly can't hurt. I don't think anything could change my mind outside of a surprise town result on Shade. A Mafia result on TheIrishman would actually not be a surprise.

Why do I say that? Because OrangeP47 didn't kill Sunflower.

OrangeP47 had to think he was going down. And he also had to think there's likely a protective role in the game. If he's got a daykill and a claimed cop and he's going to get lynched anyway, he should kill the cop! But he didn't do that, and that just begs the question: Why?

And my answer is that OrangeP47 didn't think his teammate needed to worry about the cop, and went doc hunting instead. Why wouldn't his teammate need to worry about the cop? Perhaps because his result will come back Mafia instead.

 

[Shade939]

Do you disagree with that reasoning?

[Sunflower]

Just now, Shade939 said:

Do you disagree with that reasoning?

I don't really disagree that it could have been possible but the point is that he's trying to frame Irish. By saying that Irish could be a godfather, he discourages me from investigating Irish. Like I just said, if I got a Mafia result on Irish, it would force Cat 5 to either do this godfather stuff or say that you're scum. Neither of those are appealing options for him. His jumping on Irish at the beginning of today just proves that point for me. He's been trying to set up Irish and he made his move.

I also trust Irish for a few reasons. 

1) Irish voted up Orange when I announced my cop report. He had the chance to consider Jeod's alternative scenario of a Sunflower/Shade team but he didn't do it. He was pretty strong with his support of me there and he didn't waver.

2) The plan Irish set up for us pretty much made it impossible for a scum Irish to win the game, barring any day action shenanigans - and if he wanted to do day action shenanigans, he could have easily just killed you last night under the assumption that Cat 5 would try to protect me somehow and then it would be game over.

3) He's continued to consider all the options, saying he thought it was like 60/40 or 70/30 between either Cat 5 or you.

4) His response when I was down in the dumps about having so much responsibility last night seemed pretty genuine to me.

[Shade939]

Just now, Sunflower said:

2) The plan Irish set up for us pretty much made it impossible for a scum Irish to win the game, barring any day action shenanigans - and if he wanted to do day action shenanigans, he could have easily just killed you last night under the assumption that Cat 5 would try to protect me somehow and then it would be game over.

What about night action shenanigans, specifically the type that interferes with a cop so they might actually help you?

[Sunflower]

Just now, Shade939 said:

What about night action shenanigans, specifically the type that interferes with a cop so they might actually help you?

Cat 5 says that someone tried to kill him last night, so Irish couldn't have targeted me.

[Shade939]

Just now, Sunflower said:

Cat 5 says that someone tried to kill him last night, so Irish couldn't have targeted me.

Can you even prove Irish targeted you to start with? Never mind prove that you can only perform one night action at a time, which Irish has already claimed he can get around with his own abilities?

[Shade939]

Or in this case, I should probably say disprove Irish didn't target you which he already stated he did.

[Sunflower]

Just now, Shade939 said:

Or in this case, I should probably say disprove Irish didn't target you which he already stated he did.

Uhhh... I'm saying that in your scenario where Irish is scum and tried to kill Cat 5 (because Cat 5 says that's what Irish did!) that he couldn't have also targeted me with a freaky cop-foolio ability.

[Shade939]

Just now, Sunflower said:

Uhhh... I'm saying that in your scenario where Irish is scum and tried to kill Cat 5 (because Cat 5 says that's what Irish did!) that he couldn't have also targeted me with a freaky cop-foolio ability.

And your proof.

[Sunflower]

1 hour ago, Shade939 said:

And your proof.

It's not like I'm a mafia rules master or anything, but I'm pretty sure that it's just not how the game works. Both Irish and Cat 5 seemed to agree that you wouldn't be able to kill and frame at the same time.

Oh and another thing. Cat 5 didn't vote for Orange until the last minute on the day he was lynched and he even voted nolynch first. It's pretty convenient that he happened to be silenced too, just so he wouldn't have to make any posts about the debate over Orange aside from some random memes and cute anime girls. 

[Sunflower]

I think another thing worth wondering is if Cat 5 was really silenced, would he even be allowed to post pics like that? Cause when I was reading up on silencers on the wiki, it made it sound like that player just wouldn't be able to participate that day. 

Like think about it. What if I was silenced but I was still allowed to post pics. It would be so easy for me to be able to tell everyone who I investigated just by posting pics. Like if I was silenced and investigated Cat 5 as scum - I would just do this:

And everyone would know what I meant. Kinda defeats the purpose of silencing me doesn't it?

[Shade939]

12 minutes ago, Sunflower said:

It's not like I'm a mafia rules master or anything, but I'm pretty sure that it's just not how the game works. Both Irish and Cat 5 seemed to agree that you wouldn't be able to kill and frame at the same time.

Oh and another thing. Cat 5 didn't vote for Orange until the last minute on the day he was lynched and he even voted nolynch first. It's pretty convenient that he happened to be silenced too, just so he wouldn't have to make any posts about the debate over Orange aside from some random memes and cute anime girls. 

Part of the problem is it actually comes down the GM and how they're running this particular game. Which it's a bit late to ask the GM for clarification since it'd probably wind up getting a player lynched if they said no.

Now that's a better reasoning to lynch Category 5 than the previous ones you've mentioned.

[Shade939]

1 minute ago, Sunflower said:

I think another thing worth wondering is if Cat 5 was really silenced, would he even be allowed to post pics like that? Cause when I was reading up on silencers on the wiki, it made it sound like that player just wouldn't be able to participate that day. 

Like think about it. What if I was silenced but I was still allowed to post pics. It would be so easy for me to be able to tell everyone who I investigated just by posting pics. Like if I was silenced and investigated Cat 5 as scum - I would just do this:

And everyone would know what I meant. Kinda defeats the purpose of silencing me doesn't it?

Also, another valid point, which I'm wondering why Irish didn't bring this up before now when he was attacking Category 5.

[Shade939]

On 5/3/2018 at 5:04 PM, Jeod said:

Cat5 thinks the scumteam is Orange and Irish. I think the scumteam is Orange and Cat5.

Cat5, are you claiming doctor? It's a little late in the game for Irish to be fishing for a doctor.

Or why no has pointed out something like this after Jeod's death?

[Sunflower]

5 minutes ago, Shade939 said:

Or why no has pointed out something like this after Jeod's death?

Yeah one of the other reasons I felt confident enough about Cat 5 being scum now that I think about it is because I remembered Jeod saying something like "I'd bet my life that it's Cat 5" or something like that.

I was thinking about the silencing issue the other day because I was worried I might get silenced - but then I realized it'd be pretty easy to give my reports through pics. The only player I couldn't figure out how to represent in a picture was Jeod lol. I had you with a shadow, Cat 5 with an anime girl, and Irish with like an Irish flag or a clover or something. Not sure why I didn't think to actually mention it. I guess I've been too wrapped up in trying to figure out who to investigate.

[TheIrishman]

You would be able to just post their avatar >.> And I see where you guys are coming from and I mostly agree about the silencing thing and how pictures can make it easy to go around, but from what I've been told for previous games they've been allowed to post images while silenced. I think the main point of silencing someone if they're still allowed to post images is to disable their ability to debate. Like, you can't say, "Well Nodlied couldn't have done this if he did that night 1, while FRAYDO looks like he was agreeing with Verti60 so there's a chance they could be scum or third party." By limiting it to images it can make certain things harder or even impossible to properly. Just think about if you tried to do a full player list analysis with images >.>

That all said, I think Cat5 is lying about being silenced as well.

[Sunflower]

I guess I just thought that doing the avatar would be like cheating tbh. But yeah.

[Category 5 Hurricane]

All of you claiming that silencing isn't a classic role are missing important context in deciding what could be considered classic. What is considered a classic role is up to the person making the game. iLTS himself once spent an entire game with an image-only restriction because of the flavor of the game, and silencing hasn't exactly been uncommon in mafia games over the years., especially ones ran by VERTi60. I believe I can think of three different games that had a silencer just in the past year. And by claiming me to be lying about being silenced, you are implicitly allowing a claimed combo doctor/bodyguard to be considered classic, with which I disagree.

I once got around a silencing that was applied to me in a Jeod-GMed game because the rules said any posts I made needed to be a meme. So I made my own meme, and typed whatever I wanted into it.

 

The rules iLTS gave me included instructions to not use words. I stretched it a bit the first post with a video that included lots of practically meaningless words and got warned for that, which is why I only used images for the rest of the day.

Effectively the rules given to me meant I had to express myself in non-verbal imagery like I was playing charades. And that is the classic form of silencer that has been used many times in the history of this forum.

 

[Shade939]

12 minutes ago, Category 5 Hurricane said:

All of you claiming that silencing isn't a classic role are missing important context in deciding what could be considered classic. What is considered a classic role is up to the person making the game. iLTS himself once spent an entire game with an image-only restriction because of the flavor of the game, and silencing hasn't exactly been uncommon in mafia games over the years., especially ones ran by VERTi60. I believe I can think of three different games that had a silencer just in the past year. And by claiming me to be lying about being silenced, you are implicitly allowing a claimed combo doctor/bodyguard to be considered classic, with which I disagree.

I once got around a silencing that was applied to me in a Jeod-GMed game because the rules said any posts I made needed to be a meme. So I made my own meme, and typed whatever I wanted into it.

 

The rules iLTS gave me included instructions to not use words. I stretched it a bit the first post with a video that included lots of practically meaningless words and got warned for that, which is why I only used images for the rest of the day.

Effectively the rules given to me meant I had to express myself in non-verbal imagery like I was playing charades. And that is the classic form of silencer that has been used many times in the history of this forum.

 

And unsurprisingly considering everything, it really doesn't take more than this to convince me.

[Shade939]

But I still prefer to have more than just this to go on, so if you'd care to elaborate a bit more on this situation @Category 5 Hurricane, and so you basically didn't have your current defense constrained to a single post?

[Category 5 Hurricane]

Sunflower, wouldn't it make more sense that if I were scum, I'd be trying to keep Shade a suspect? Why limit my options to TheIrishman? The more suspects there are, the better for me.

I've narrowed my focus to TheIrishman because that's who I think it is.

Conversely, the fact that TheIrishman keeps leaving the door open for Shade to be scum when I don't think it is possible, is just another part of why I suspect him.

[Shade939]

Just now, Category 5 Hurricane said:

Conversely, the fact that TheIrishman keeps leaving the door open for Shade to be scum when I don't think it is possible, is just another part of why I suspect him.

You should probably expand upon that part considering that Sunflower still probably thinks I'm Scum since she likes Irish still being suspicious of me.

[Category 5 Hurricane]

6 minutes ago, Shade939 said:

You should probably expand upon that part considering that Sunflower still probably thinks I'm Scum since she likes Irish still being suspicious of me.

I'm not sure she does. Though I do think she is being super triggered by your AUM antics.

[Shade939]

Just now, Category 5 Hurricane said:

I'm not sure she does. Though I do think she is being super triggered by your AUM antics.

That's probably a fair assessment, although I do find my antics useful for gathering information so I myself at least can determine someon's alignment based on there responses.