Discuss Mammoth/Apocalypse Tank in real life

[Goliath35]

Imagine that some nation has developed a tank that's near enough the same as the Mammoth Tank/Apocalypse Tank (twin fuck off guns with twin missile pods as well as it being four-tracked) with the same level of durability as well as the ability to conduct independent battlefield repairs. 

How would everything work out? Would the main guns have an autoloader system similar to that of WWII-era battleships as opposed to having a four-man loader (two per gun; one inserting the round and the other inserting a charge of some sort), would the pods have to be manually reloaded? 
More to the point, how would you steer a vehicle that utilizes four tracks instead of the traditional two? 

[thedisclaimitory]

well then your in for some history my boy                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                this is the panzer Vlll Maus  this had 2 prototypes but one was captured by the Russians                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and the p1000 ratte: which was only a tank developed on paper, but was never made; so it was a design slash imagination but, this thing would have been about 3 times the size of the Maus tank, which is huge. The Maus tank alone is about the size of around 3 or 5 minivans stacked on top of each other, but ide imagine that the mammoth tank would have been worse than the Maus tank way worse, and it might have weighed more than this small child of a beast compared to a mammoth tank. However, it might have been faster: this thing (the Maus tank) could go about 12 Kmh/ or 8 mph but I think the mammoth would have gone maybe 12 mph or less.     So this beast existed but never saw combat so I guess you could say basically the mammoth tank existed just not the way we think it would. Oh and the p1000 ratte would have had a battleship type autoloader ide suspect because of how big its guns and the tank is 

Edited June 9, 2019 by thedisclaimitory
I added more info to the post

[des1206]

From my understanding, something similar was pitched during WWII, but it was quickly dismissed. The reason is that the bigger (and therefore slower) you are, the more vulnerable you are to artillery, who can definitely punch through your armor. Remember you would want thick armor on all sides, but the thicker it is, the heavier you get, and it only takes a shell to penetrate you at one point to destroy what's on the inside.  The armor-mobility trade-off is just not worth it after a certain point.

 

 

[delta]

I'm pretty sure that for any real-life tank, you'd only ever want to have gun, because you need the accuracy when shooting at other tanks and stuff. This is even a problem in APB where you have to adjust your aim between the two shots when you're in a heavy or Mammoth tank, but in a Medium tank you can just hold the gun steady in place. Whereas when you're a big cruiser or battleship, you're shooting at other big cruisers or battleships, so having multiple guns on each turret makes more sense.

As for missiles, I don't think there'a any real-life situation where'd you want to use guided missiles against infantry (missiles are expensive and I don't think there's any homing mechanism to target people), especially when you can just fire HE shells. So that just leaves the anti-aircraft function...I think there's some tanks that can fire AA missiles out of their main guns, but I don't know how common that is. AA weapons are kinda delicate and fragile, so you probably want them mounted on separate vehicles rather than on main battle tanks (just like in real life!).

And lastly, once your tank gets to a certain size, there's just no way you can put enough armor on it to protect the whole thing. And your enemy will just build a bigger anti-tank missile.

[ganein14]

For references sake, look at the biggest tank ever produced: the Maus, and you'll see why tanks don't get bigger.

[Goliath35]

3 hours ago, ganein14 said:

For references sake, look at the biggest tank ever produced: the Maus, and you'll see why tanks don't get bigger.

Good thing the Maus was only that, the Germans tried the E-100 and halted it to focus on said Maus. which ended up being a Soviet Trophy in Kubinka

[Threve]

Besides the obvious of what was mentioned above it would simply have no practical usage in today's modern day era. Say it was built however and ignore all the logics and whatever along with Maus history. Problems would arise before, during and after development.

1. There is no point due to there not being a world war going on. Many battles today are not major nation wide but more so proxie wars fought by militant groups. The only country that could build something of this magnitude (the correct way at least and have it working) is a superpower. Russia has the Typhoon Class submarine which is the world's largest sub. They have since retired almost all 5 of them. Bigger simply just isn't better as well. The caliber of guns is irrelevant with the development of missiles, artillery and railguns. Now that I say it even artillery is going out of fashion.

2. Actual Tank on Tank warfare is extremely rare now and days due to the fact only superpowers would really be capable of doing so. It doesn't make sense to have a super tank go up against an old soviet tank fielded by some group that just found it when you can use a less costly tank (abrams) to do the same job. It's the equivalent of buying a semi with two trailers to go pick up groceries when you could just buy a Truck or SUV.

3. During production it would take alot of money, time and resources to develop this, not just build it. The design may be there but you have to figure out how to make sure this thing doesn't over heat, how it aims and such along with testing. You could forgo this but you dont want to do that in battle.

4. Besides the fact we've used enough money here to build probably 150 Main USA Battle Tanks due to research, contracting, development of parts/tech.. we now have our mammoth tank. Now we have to go find a battle to get ourselves into...

We find ourselves in Iraq, as is typical, we are going for a patrol.

Our mammoth tank has now held up traffic due to how slow it is. We could make it faster but it would wear out the parts faster as well and put it in the shop for another 8 months (These parts have to be custom made btw and shipped). Well fuck it, we put a Nuclear Reactor inside of the Tank and it's now faster along with being efficient at letting out heat. Driving along the sandy road (and hopefully not getting stuck) we managed to hit an IED and our tracks are blown. We now require two recovery vehicles due to the weight of our tank. The nuclear reactor is also in danger of going critical and killing us all but the professional inside mechanics help mysteriously maintain half of your tanks health. You're stuck here for a day or two in the hot sun much to the dismay of the rest of the 200,000 Marines you're supporting.

 

5. We had a hiccup but we're going hard still. We have just pulled up on our village and there are enemies in there which means we get to get some. Command just called and told us we can't use our 60mm missiles to level the place because there are civilians and it would level a football field worth of property. Furthermore your wide Mammoth tank would destroy the streets due to the weight, and the buildings due to the length of the turret. The threat may also hit you from above the buildings, use an IED or hide in a occupied building with children. Our nation also wants some prisoners captured alive so we can get intel. So infantry dismounts and we cover our APC's as the infantry clears the village. A predator missile falls from the sky precisely destroying the high value target as we guard our APC's. Victory is at hand but you spot an enemy vehicle from ahead. As your team loads the 120mm cannons you get ready to fire. You lock in and the target explodes... you didn't fire but your teammates M1 Abrams that uses the same 120mm ammunition scored a hit. You wanted to use the dual cannons but your friend seems to be more than enough to blow away a 150,000 mile Toyota with a M2 mounted on back from 3 miles.. You scan the air for targets with advanced sensors but fail to find anything other than a $35 ISIS drone from Walmart watching the battle unfold. Lacking any machine guns your team takes practice shooting at it with M9 Berreta’s for fun while you’re waiting for the village to be secured.

 

6. Your team then decides to let you become a mobile base defence because command figured out you suck at patrolling. After sitting at base for weeks on end you see a convoy coming and fire up the engines, the enemy is out 5 miles and you're preparing to give them hell. All of a sudden 5 F-35 Jets fly over head as the lock unto the tanks/APC’s with missiles as an apache helicopter kills any infantry higher than you can see. Command is high fiving themselves as you take off your tank suit depressed and tell your team to get some sleep.

 

7. 15 Years later and you're about to retire until russia attacks trying to take back the middle east in the midst of a world wide fuel crisis. The world is at war and it's coming down to the last couple of drops as humanity struggles with themselves. Everything is to be used including your X-1 Mammoth Tank Prototype. You fire up the tank, smell the coffee and ready the guns. As you embark on the battlefield, brushing the dust off of your museum quality tank,  a missle hits the top of your tank (Weakest Armor) from a drone high above. It seems being so unique has made the enemy focus everything on you (like the worlds largest battleship Yamamoto in WW2). The tank is hurt as another missle from a javelin strikes the top severely destroying your optics. Your sensors however built inside pick up a strike force ahead of Russian Main battle tanks. Now that you’re in an open field you can use the tank effectively for tank/tank combat. 3 out of 5 manage to fire at your frontal armor and 1 round makes it through with the round exploding a specialty HE Copper shell killing 3 crew inside. You take aim and fire your cannons. You then ignite 2 Russian tanks using your 120mm cannons. and directly hitting them while the other 3 Russian Tanks hit your treads and engine. A fire has started in the cockpit from the abuse and with your tank on fire you run away before the nuclear radiation gives you cancer or the rounds explode. The fire extinguisher system works but your tank is also missing half a tread and stuck due to the intense combat. American M1 Abrams in your squad manage to cause some serious damage as well and both sides retreat with Russian hackers wirelessly hacking into what is left of your tank to get any info they can. To ensure a special operations team doesn’t save/repair  your prize, they EMP the tank 4 times and fry any and all electronics that still work.

45 Years later as humanity looks back on the war, a Russian GrandFather leans into his son and tells him "A long time ago, the world used tanks in battle." as his son wikipedia's what a tank is on his Iphone 27xS. The Mammoth Tank Prototype in front of them at the museum is nothing more than a husk shell with 2 kill crosses scratched into its armor. 

[Goliath35]

11 hours ago, Threve said:

Besides the obvious of what was mentioned above it would simply have no practical usage in today's modern day era. Say it was built however and ignore all the logics and whatever along with Maus history. Problems would arise before, during and after development.

1. There is no point due to there not being a world war going on. Many battles today are not major nation wide but more so proxie wars fought by militant groups. The only country that could build something of this magnitude (the correct way at least and have it working) is a superpower. Russia has the Typhoon Class submarine which is the world's largest sub. They have since retired almost all 5 of them. Bigger simply just isn't better as well. The caliber of guns is irrelevant with the development of missiles, artillery and railguns. Now that I say it even artillery is going out of fashion.

2. Actual Tank on Tank warfare is extremely rare now and days due to the fact only superpowers would really be capable of doing so. It doesn't make sense to have a super tank go up against an old soviet tank fielded by some group that just found it when you can use a less costly tank (abrams) to do the same job. It's the equivalent of buying a semi with two trailers to go pick up groceries when you could just buy a Truck or SUV.

3. During production it would take alot of money, time and resources to develop this, not just build it. The design may be there but you have to figure out how to make sure this thing doesn't over heat, how it aims and such along with testing. You could forgo this but you dont want to do that in battle.

4. Besides the fact we've used enough money here to build probably 150 Main USA Battle Tanks... we now have our mammoth tank. Now we have to go find a battle to get ourselves into...

We find ourselves in Iraq, as is typical, we are going for a patrol.

Our mammoth tank has now held up traffic due to how slow it is. We could make it faster but it would wear out the parts and put it in the shop for another 8 months (These parts have to be custom made btw and shipped). Well fuck it, we put a Nuclear Reactor inside of the Tank and it's now faster along with being efficient at letting out heat. Driving along the sandy road (and hopefully not getting stuck) we managed to hit an IED and our tracks are blown. We now require two recovery vehicles due to the weight of our tank. The nuclear reactor is also in danger of going critical and killing us all but the professional inside mechanics help mysteriously maintain half of your tanks health. You're stuck here for a day or two in the hot sun much to the dismay of the rest of the 200,000 Marines you're supporting.

 

5. We had a hiccup but we're going hard still. We have just pulled up on our village and there are enemies in there which means we get to get some. Command just called and told us we can't use our 60mm missiles to level the place because there are civilians and it would level a football field worth of property. So infantry dismounts and we cover our APC's as the infantry clears the village. A predator missile falls from the sky precisely destroying the target as we guard our APC's. Victory is at hand but you spot an enemy vehicle from ahead. As your team loads the 120mm cannons you get ready to fire. You lock in and the target explodes... you didn't fire but your teammates M1 Abrams that uses the same 120mm ammunition scored a hit. You wanted to use the dual cannons but your friend seems to be enough to blow away a 150,000 mile Toyota with a M2 mounted on back from 3 miles..

 

6. Your team then decides to let you become a mobile base defence because command figured out you suck at patrolling. After sitting at base for weeks on end you see a convoy coming and fire up the engines, the enemy is out 5 miles and you're preparing to give them hell. All of a sudden 5 F-35 Jets fly over head as the lock unto the tanks with missiles as an apache helicopter kills any infantry higher than you can see. Command is high fiving themselves as you take off your tank suit and tell your team to get some sleep.

 

7. 15 Years later and you're about to retire until russia attacks trying to take back the middle east in the midst of a world wide fuel crisis. The world is at war and it's coming down to the last couple of drops as humanity struggles with themselves. Everything is to be used including your X-1 Mammoth Tank Prototype. You fire up the tank, smell the coffee and ready the guns. As you embark on the battlefield, brushing the dust off of your museum quality tank,  a missle hits the top of your tank (Weakest Armor) from a drone. It seems being so unique has made the enemy focus everything on you. The tank is hurt as another missle from a javelin strikes the top. Your sensors pick up a strike force ahead of Russi a Main battle tanks. 3 out of 5 manage to fire at your frontal armor and 1 round makes it through with the round exploding a copper shell killing 3 crew inside. You take aim and fire your cannons. You then ignite 2 russian tanks while the other 3 hit your treads and engine. With your tank on fire you run away before the nuclear radiation gives you cancer or the rounds explode. American M1 Abrams in your squad manage to cause some serious damage as well and both sides retreat. 45 Years later as humanity looks back on the war, a Russian GrandFather leans into his son and tells him "A long time ago, the world used tanks in battle." as his son wikipedia's what a tank is on his Iphone 27 and tells him to shut up. 

You should be a historian for an alternate what ifs....

Also hump three times a day to keep the doctor away

[Threve]

1 hour ago, Goliath35 said:

You should be a historian for an alternate what ifs....

Also hump three times a day to keep the doctor away

“Man’s gotta hump 3 times a day”

[Goliath35]

7 minutes ago, Threve said:

“Man’s gotta hump 3 times a day”

I really need to have that as my profiles rank

[Yah-Nosh]

I'm of the camp that, in spite of all the real life difficulties (which I recognize), still tries to consider how and why such designs would be implemented. It's just more fun to think of how to get around the obstacles and come up with reasons for why this design would be chosen, instead of just dismissing everything outright.

So that would be our starting point: why do it? There are a number of considerations.

1) It is intended to be a "mobile fortress" instead of a "tank". This is already sort of implied by the armaments and other features it has, such as the self-healing. If we look past video game logic, these features could in real life be more sophisticated functions, e.g carrying emergency supplies, extra fuel, extra parts, etc. Same goes for the weapons systems: it's not literally firing two cannons and the missile launchers, but is instead equipped to deliver different types of firepower, depending on what the current target is. Air units would be dealt with using missiles, and the cannons can bombard enemy positions. I think it's fair to assume the Mammoth is expected to attack at long ranges instead of fighting up close in tight quarters (e.g urban warfare). So if one imagines it as a "battleship turret on land", it's not quite as ridiculous anymore. Yeah, artillery could take it out, but a moving target is already a big step up in difficulty. AA rockets may pose a greater threat, but to have a safe bet, you'd need to be close and at an angle where the Mammoth can't easily fire back. Engage on an open field, and you're likely to die well before you could get a shot off.

2) With the above in mind, a Mammoth would probably suit defensive action much better. You have this beast presenting a big and dangerous target, and it can take a beating, so it will both attract enemy attention and keep them occupied. This can be quite valuable if you've got friendlies nearby, especially if they're setting up an ambush. Fighting all on your own is bad in any vehicle, so it's not really worth considering scenarios where Nod has 30 troops flanking one Mammoth from all around. It's more interesting to consider how it cooperates with other units. That said, offense could work as well, albeit not in the long term. The Mammoth would have a hard time keeping up with advancing units, and no doubt a lot of heavy-duty logistics would need to follow it as well. As a breakthrough tank (much like the Pz VI, i.e Tiger), however, it could work, again by delivering lots of firepower and forcing the enemy to focus on it. If only limited ranges are required in the first place, then this can be an effective tool.

Really, you have to consider it this way: it's a bulldozer, not a truck. One is expected to be at the construction site, driving back and forth to bulldoze things. The other (i.e a smaller tank) is expected to make long distance trips reliably.

3) Crew safety. Obviously you're in a bigger target, so there is an increase in risk, but you are also effectively carrying your shelter with you. And no equipment is more valuable than its crew. The former can always be replaced, the latter is much harder to replace (the experience gained is lost forever). Not to mention that, since the Mammoth can draw fire to itself, it can increase the safety of other units nearby. Given the resources GDI has at its disposal, this seems like an acceptable tradeoff.

4) Fear factor. Just imagine seeing that giant beast rolling toward you, its engine rumbling and its massive cannons going off, destroying entire buildings around you. No doubt part of the Mammoth's mission would just be to scare off the enemy and remind everyone who's boss. And if you're the only one who can build a Mammoth, you will be a lot more scary than the other powers, who can only afford "lesser vehicles".

[Goliath35]

You know the Mammoth will be piloted by yours truly

[thedisclaimitory]

12 hours ago, Goliath35 said:

You should be a historian for an alternate what ifs....

Also hump three times a day to keep the doctor away

bruh I just gave you a history lesson also the p1000 ratte would have had a battleship cannons from either the Tirpitz or just one custom made 

Edited June 12, 2019 by thedisclaimitory
I added more info to the post

[Ice]

On 6/10/2019 at 12:17 AM, delta said:

As for missiles, I don't think there'a any real-life situation where'd you want to use guided missiles against infantry (missiles are expensive and I don't think there's any homing mechanism to target people), especially when you can just fire HE shells. So that just leaves the anti-aircraft function...I think there's some tanks that can fire AA missiles out of their main guns, but I don't know how common that is. AA weapons are kinda delicate and fragile, so you probably want them mounted on separate vehicles rather than on main battle tanks (just like in real life!).

While you're correct that there isn't really any homing mechanism for people, you're also assuming that the Mammoth's missiles are fire-and-forget, when they could just as easily be wire-guided manually by an operator with a controller (MCLOS and SACLOS), or even laser-guided. While using such missiles against infantry formations is usually redundant when there far more economical weapons for that job, it is quite possible to do if you really had to.

This also depends on what exactly the missile pods are firing; Are they relatively inexpensive unguided fragmentation rockets being used against infantry, or wire-guided anti-tank missiles, or sophisticated short-range anti-air missiles similar in size to the Strela-1?

One could assume that anything like a real-life GDI Mammoth Tank would be designed to be capable of firing several different types of rockets/missiles (possibly out of their own separate specialized pods; frag rockets in one and AA missiles in the other) for different kinds of threats, but this also depends on what roles such a vehicle would be designed for, and the underlying reasons for developing such a thing in the first place.

[Goliath35]

On 6/12/2019 at 2:45 AM, thedisclaimitory said:

bruh I just gave you a history lesson also the p1000 ratte would have had a battleship cannons from either the Tirpitz or just one custom made 

P1000 Ratte, because the Maus and the E-100 just wasn't big enough for Hitler. 

Also apparently for propulsion, the Ratte would've used engines off of either U-Boats or whatever battleships they had going at the time. 

[delta]

Apparently this thing exists in World of Tanks: https://worldoftanks.com/en/tankopedia/44289-R165_Object_703_II/