A Path Beyond Vehicle Destruction and Mine Limit

[des1206]

Vehicle Destruction - You know how when boats and subs get destroyed, you get ejected out and the vehicle lingers for a minute before exploding? And how helis don't explode right away either? I really like this mechanic. Is there an easy way to implement this for land vehicles too?

 

 

Mine Limit - Was Soviets on pipeline today when some n00b decided to AP mine the heck out of EVERYTHING in base. Unfortunately the mine limit was hit and we could not longer mine oil rigs offensively. In renegade old mines disappear when new mines above the mine limit are laid. Can there be a similar mechanic to address the problem above?

 

 

Thanks PushWall for reading this, I know you have limited time/resource.

[Pushwall]

Vehicle Destruction

 

This was really easy to do for boats, subs and helis because it didn't actually require any changes to the model, just use of the existing logic for "spawn an object that has projectile physics". The game's physics take care of all the effects needed.

 

Doing this for ground vehicles would be quite a bit more time intensive because there's really nothing for the physics to do there (they're already on solid ground, where are they going to fall?) so it would mean having to make a ton of alternate models with visible damage beyond the normal fire/smoke plumes you get at low health... unless you just want the normal vehicle model to sit there with its damage flames/smoke for a while and still look like it's perfectly feasible to get back in and drive, which will surely prompt people to actually try to get back in. So this is unlikely.

 

Mine Limit

 

The idea of just having new mines replace old ones is just as vulnerable to n00b behaviour; someone might de-mine an important building without realising it and then everyone's wondering "how did that tanya get in there without killing any mines?" And given that you usually want to mine the most important buildings first (especially if the enemy is pushing for early Tanyas), that means those will be the first to be made vulnerable. If any better ideas come along I'll talk to the script guys about it and we'll see what's plausible then.

Thanks PushWall for reading this, I know you have limited time/resource.

 

No problem.

[delta]

Maybe...have the mines expire after a period of time? Yeah sure, you'd have to remine every so often, but these things are pretty effective at what they do to begin with, so maybe that's not so bad?

 

Thanks PushWall for reading this, I know you have limited time/resource.

 

No problem.

 

We love you Pushwall

[Einstein]

des1206, delta...i think you both might have a little something on your noses

 

Expiring mines...thats an interesting thought. Not sure how I feel about that. I would assume that its possible, but I have a feeling it all hinges on whether or not the ML can place an object that has timed logic applied to it? Might be the same as C4? Can a mine layer drop a C4? Maybe I'm close to making sense. I'll leave it to Pushwall though.

[Pushwall]

Having the mine expire after a time limit is really simple to do I'm sure. Hell, "spawn a thing (radar marker) that expires after a time limit" is exactly how the Engineer's mine detector works. What I'm not sure about is if it's really a good idea to force people to waste more time doing something that's not fighting. Especially considering how much time it takes for a Soviet minelayer to fully and properly mine an entire base once, or an Allied minelayer to saturate one attack route in mines once! To prevent a player from spending the entire game remining the same places, the time limit would have to be so long that it wouldn't even properly do the intended job of fighting against people who place mines poorly.

[delta]

Or maybe allow the repair tool to remove friendly mines? I suppose there might be teamhampering potential for that, but I rarely see any teamhampering anyway, so maybe it's worth it?

 

Or, going back to the time limit idea, what if the time limit was implemented, and to counteract the "spend all game mining" we double the mine capacity to ten mines to reduce trips back to the service depot?

[Raap]

Unless memory is failing me here, Renegade mines started deleting the oldest placed mine once a new one was placed after a certain limit. This might do the trick here, especially if it could be paired with a message notifying the mine placer that the limit was reached and old mines are being removed, since that is the main concern here.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Raap

[Alstar]

I think everyone here know the iron rule of soviet minelayer. Mine your base first, then you can place some outside of your base.

 

Honestly, i dont see a problem right now. Replaceable mines = "my mines are better than yours or totally less useful than they were before". Expiring mines would force someone to replace the mines all the time, making soviets lose one player in the field.

 

Also this reminds me how people kept placing proxy C4 in place of older ones just to score more frags - and it was happening all the time. People remining entrances so the mines will be theirs.

[Pushwall]

especially if it could be paired with a message notifying the mine placer that the limit was reached and old mines are being removed

 

That implies that the player will:

• read the message
• understand what it means
• either notify their team that they've reached the limit so the original miner can fix the problem, or attempt to fix their it themselves (assuming they just happen to know which mines are being removed)

Given the kinds of people who tend to poop up the mine limit by assuming that all mines are dual-purpose despite the different models and different kill strings for "Anti-Tank Mine" and "Anti-Personnel Mine" and the way mines behaved in Red Alert... uh... sure

 

Also I'm pretty sure AT/AP mines do not use Renegade mine logic otherwise it would already be the case that they replace old mines.

[Pushwall]

Also the "remove the oldest mine" approach is severely flawed because you basically need to run through the entire mine limit again just to fix the problem. Say someone got a minelayer when the base was fully mined and plopped 2 mines at some tunnel entrance not knowing that it removed the mines from the side of the WF in the process cause that's the first place that was mined. Okay, so you get a minelayer to fix this. You mine the WF side door. Now the WF rear door is unmined because you mined the side door and that was originally the second place to get mined. You mine the rear door, now the refinery doors are unmined... it goes on and on. And then someone will argue with you about how the tunnel needs to be mined and undo your work again.

[delta]

Expiring mines would force someone to replace the mines all the time, making soviets lose one player in the field.

True, but if Allies have one or more players running around as Tanyas, aren't they also subtracted from the total overall manpower of the team? So the one Soviet player preoccupied with mining is counteracted by the Tanyas trying to sneak into buildings.

 

I suppose if we want to make mining even faster though, we could give the minelayer a secondary fire mode to drop a cluster of three mines at once (as well as increased mine capacity), as a means to offset by the time expiration.

[harvester]

It would discourage people from mine laying outside the base and confuse new players. Furthermore, we need a nerf for Tanya, not a nerf on her counter.

 

The current mine laying system is fine, there is no team-hampering (except a few new players who would later learn of this and stop), and it's not breaking any game play or balance.

 

(i know we're talking about team mine hampering but...)If mines are OP , nerf them such as increasing visibility range. Let players deal with the mines instead of having the server deal with them with no player effort.

[Ice]

The current mine-laying system is fine IMO. Don't fix what isn't broken.

[Raptor29aa]

If the soviets have hit the mine limit in their base... I know curtain entrances would be vulnerable but as far as denfense goes slam dunk. Infantry denied.
(The allies take around 5-15 minutes to block one route hitting mine limit that's half the match I know it did it) (while soviets can quickly hop to the multiple SDs and have the whole base covered in less than 3).
Although I will digress about mine inequality and talk about the real issue. You have a noob on your team. He'll lay too many mines. He'll buy a sniper and run the wrong way. He'll charge medium tanks with a V2. Or buy a demo when you are under Artillery fire. I'm sorry friend but there is no cure for your team except pray he gets bored and quit.

[Ice]

If the soviets have hit the mine limit in their base... I know curtain entrances would be vulnerable but as far as denfense goes slam dunk. Infantry denied.

(The allies take around 5-15 minutes to block one route hitting mine limit that's half the match I know it did it) (while soviets can quickly hop to the multiple SDs and have the whole base covered in less than 3).

Although I will digress about mine inequality and talk about the real issue. You have a n00b on your team. He'll lay too many mines. He'll buy a sniper and run the wrong way. He'll charge medium tanks with a V2. Or buy a demo when you are under Artillery fire. I'm sorry friend but there is no cure for your team except pray he gets bored and quit.

N00bs will be n00bs. You can't really fix them, they're broken players who ultimately have to fix themselves, and it's detrimental to try to balance a game around them. It results in too much hand-holding and shoehorning.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Ice