A Path Beyond Concepts for Missing Buildings & Units in APB

[Metaridley]

We had a few talks in Discord again over the missing things in APB and i brainstormed some of them for a fitting gameplay experience in APB.

Allies =
Heli Carrier:




I know it's a cut unit from aftermath but i still enjoying it when i use it with my custom rules.ini or mod in C&C RA Remastered.
The Heli Carrier is a pure support unit like LSTs and the RJ and need protection from boats and longbows and delivers ammunation for Helis.
In RA1 it can carry 5 Longbows/Hinds but in APB it should be just a mobile refill pad on water. It would be a great addition for HostileWaters since Sub Rushes on this map are nearly unblockable imo.
One question for implementation is: should the Heli Carrier be stationary (with Q deploying on water) when Aircraft refills ammunation or can it still move to dodge incoming attacks?

Camo Pillbox:


The Camo Pillbox is another good problematic example (like dogs, tech centres and Advaned Power Plants) "how to implement this into the game)
One Problem of the Camo Pillbox is, when player notice the position of the CPB, in all future gamesrounds it's a easy target because the camouflage/hiding aspect is obsolete.

Points to implement it into the game:
First, it has more armor than the standart Pillbox.
Second, it should be not targetable until a enemy unit is really close to it.
Third, it should be really flat, really really flat. Maps like Zama and siege would be fitting. What i notice by playing RA Remaster is allies can clearly see the CPB but for Soviets/Eneimes it's not colored in the enemies color and its really hard to spot in the terrain.

Fourth and most important idea of my brainstorming. Remember the Coop Map for APB? The allies have terminals where they can invest into defense structures.. Obviously that didn't work for the CPB but here comes my idea. At the start of the Match, players have a timeframe of 60-90 seconds to run out the base and place a beacon or some sort of placeholder on a spot where the CPB should took place and deploying it. Not more than 2 or 3 should be possible, depending on the map. Shouldn't be re-buildable/re-deployable if it gets destroyed and can't shoot up/down to/from hills (thats the job for normal Pillboxes and Turrets) because it's so flat. But also it shouldn't cost anything but you have to deploy it at the start pretty fast.

The second deploy idea would be multiple RNG areas on maps around/in the allied base where CPBs could be automatically set at the start of the round. But that would take the "strategic" element away from the defense.

In combination with the Gap Generator it would be a pretty strong defense.

(Spy Infiltrating) Sonar Pulse & Badger Bomber:


We had a discussion how to make the Spy stronger. One of my ideas is the obvious power use. If a Spy got into a Sub Pen, the allies got the Power in their RD/NY/Tech Centre (depending on the map) for single use . Re-infiltrate make the power again usable.
It shows subs pretty clear in the water. (It just my opinion or my eyesight isn't the best but it's really hard to see subs in the water) for 5-10 seconds.
For Badger Bombers it's the same. If a spy infiltrate the Air Field, Allies can use one single Airstrike. Also used in their RD/NY/Tech Centre, map depending.

GPS Satellite:


Tbh it's really hard to come up with a use of the GPS Power in the game. First it's basically automatic and second we have no fog of war in APB. My only idea would be to detect the position of all enemy units after a amount of time (i guess it was 12 minutes in RA1?) until the game is over or the Tech Centre is destroyed. Maybe you have some ideas here.

Soviets=
Dogs, Chitzkoi & Kennel:

The Attack Dog is the most important counter against allied spies and infantry in general and we need them in game (because we have some really good spy players in APB). They are faster than all other infantry and kill a soldier in one hit, even Tanya.
"But Meta, what if the soviets destroy the allied vehicle production and the enemy comes with a lot of dogs? it's unbalanced" - People driving with Anti Inf Minelayers into the enemy base if allied Vehicle Production is dead, also allies rushing in the same case with APCs and Rangers into the Soviet base so this argument is invalid. Dogs have no Armor and can killed pretty easy by one player with good aim or 2-3 casual rifle soldiers. To give a spy a small counter against dogs, he can carry a "dog spray" (Anti Shark Bat Spray flashbacks) that paralyze or slow down the dog for 1-2 seconds so the spy can counter the dog.

Because of Dogs the Kennel would be a new target for allied players to get rid of to make room for their spies and infantry.
If Chitzkoi makes also hold in APB he would be a very pimped version of the Dog, also he would need oil to not make weird mechanical rusty sounds when he moves.

If a Dog Player sees a Spy, he should see not the soldier facette, instead see a british black suited man that run for his life.

Forward Command Post:


Just thinking about a counterpart for the Map Seamist. Soviets have to defend their Command Post as important Building until they get reinforcements or nuke the attacking allied base out of existence.

Spy Plane:


Basically the same function as the GPS Satellite. It shows the position of all allied units for a few seconds but instead it is available after 3-5 Minutes and hold for 30 seconds. Doesn't work against units that below a Gap-generated Field.

Badger, Parabombs, Paratroopers & Parachutes:


Another Badger related Power. Soviets can call reinforcements in form of Bots, maybe for a decoy, maybe for help, maybe for attacking the enemy base. It works pretty well in the Coop Map tbh.
Also Parabombs are basically a airstrike but instead of allied version of spy infiltration, soviets can use it multiple times until the round is over or the tech centre/air field is destroyed.

Also WE - NEED - PARACHUTES - IN - THIS -GAME. Its so annoying if you lose your Hind/LB/Mig/Yak and fall into death. Every infantry unit that fall out of a weaponized aircraft should automatically have a parachute. But why not purchase a parachute? Because it would make a full chinhook extremly op. If all player have purchase a parachute, flying as team with a Chinhook and the Chinhook get destroyed over the enemy base, the enemy base is in pure chaos. The whole point of the Chinhook is sneaking into the base with the team and if it gets destroyed the whole heli team is fucked.


Both Factions=
Sandbags (Allies) and Barbed Wire (Soviets) (and Chain Link Fence):


Already in the game but just a pure map asset. I was thinking about (remodeling the sandbags and) animate a destruction for them so it has a purpose in the game as "defense"
Blocks Infantry and Light Vehicles with Machine Guns (they can't harm them) but no chance against tank and rocket weapons.

Tech Centers:

People already discussion the use of TCs in the game here

but here are my thoughts. In later C&C Games, Tech Center-like buildings give the player upgrades or powers besides multiple high tier units.
Thats why the Tech Centers should be purely based on powers (except for the Super Weapons). Player can use the Spy Planes, Sonar Pulse and Badger-based Powers from here. If the TC is destroyed soviets lose the powers and allied spies can't get the powers again (and the GPS Satellite is deactivated).

Chronosphere & Iron Curtain:

I know not possible atm because we don't have a iron curtain model. But you all know the mechanics of these both devices. Like in Apocalypse Rising you go to the device, enter the terminal and the map shows up, you choose one unit and make it invincible/teleport that to another location. Since both are secondary super weapons and aren't so strong like their RA2/3 Versions, and they are not that strong as a Nuke both could be used on smaller maps (demolition trucks don't work with them!)

Advanced Power Plant:


I know, i know but just hear me out.
Yes the APP is just a bigger PP with the same use. It just have no real point in the game. But it's really unRAlistic if you have a big base and everything is powered by a small PP.

I would use the APP on maps with big bases like siege and it should be at the corner of the base so it doesn't take too much space. Also the APP could be tweaked a bit toe be a bit smaller. So we can bring every major unit and building into the game again.

Bonus:
Larva & Queen Ant:



I just have to do this because we need more ant maps in the game.
My idea would be a ant-based map where one team is Allied or Soviet and the other players spawning as Scout/Warrior/Fire Ants and have to defend the larvas and the Queen.
The Larvas are destructable objects and the Queen a animated Building (in RA1 it was also classified as building). It can shoot electro attacks like a tesla coil.

[GeneralCamo]

1 minute ago, Metaridley said:

we don't have a iron curtain model

APB does have one, but the texture is ancient. It's on-par with the MCV right now, as it was made for .993 before it was cut from that.

[thomaslai]

These structures maybe too  big for small maps and not appear in every map. The current meta had created a norm for people base rush and the map diversity is kind of low like pipeline, guard duty and seamist become a filler map during off line and the repeatedly appear during active hours, so maybe can create bigger maps with game time become 1 hour instead of 30 minutes can make things more diverse.

 

The way interim apex works with sometimes is just very long like more than 2 hours is kind of crazy as you are not playing as a commander rather then the foot solider on the field so is kind of not helpful in making people during busy weekdays and for the experience in general.

[Ice]

I think if the Spy Plane and Spy Satellite were to be implemented into the game, the easiest way to initially balance them might be to simply have them function identically; Say, every five minutes, the plane/satellite does one "flyover/orbit" and reveals all units (except underground units for obvious reasons) on some kind of minimap for one minute, and this cycle could continue automatically until the Tech Centre is destroyed. (I know the Spy Plane was tied to the Airfield, but for balance reasons I think these two abilities should be tied to equivalent buildings between factions).

[Coolrock]

I do like the idea of having these types of powers attached to the tech centers on maps that feature them. This would provide more reason for them to be kept around. 

[Metaridley]

To revive that topic i had some time to overthink some aspects. Since i learned (and still learning) stuff in 3DSMax, some buildings and units are definitly possible.

I made a prototype of the Helicarrier in 3DSMax and for a first attempt i am pretty proud. I will not show it just in case my work will be accepted.

I also tried a Camo PB in 3DSMax and it became really flat. That might be an issue for hit detection. To balance this out the CPB should have a bigger damage detection box to be more vunerable to splash damage from V2s, Grenades and Rockets.

To balance out the spies and doggo roles i had this in mind. Both units are relying on certain buildings. It's like the minelayers and service depots, if the SD is destroyed the mine layer is basically useless. Kill the weak-armored Kennel, dogs are gone. If APB introduce Powers, the Spy will get an even more important role, he has to infiltrate soviet buildings to make Parabombs and Sonar available, if the tech center is gone his infiltration usage is cutted down to the standart ones.

Also i had a new idea about Chitzkoi. After i read some stuff in the C&C Wikia i stumble on Megan, the cutted unit and partner for Tanya. What if we design a Commando Team for each side.
Volkov is primary a Tank Killer and secondary a infantry and building destroyer. Chitzkoi is the fast Infantry killer but can't do shit at buildings and vehicles and a much more powerful version of the standart Dog.
Tanya is a Building and Infantry Slayer but useless against vehicles. Megan is described in the Wiki as a red-haired stealthy demolitionist and partner of Tanya. She could be the Tank Destroyer with C4 of the two and semi-good against infantry.  So this would be also make much more sense because Red Alert 2 later fused some roles of RA1 units into one (Helicarrier and Cruiser in RA1 became the Helicarrier of RA2, Tanya and Mega from RA1 became Tanya from RA2 (she kills Infantry like flies and can also destroy buildings and tanks), spy and thief roles became on in RA2's Spy and so on)

For Powers i would differentiate the Spy Plane from the GPS Satellite. The Sattelite need 12-15 Minutes to be shot into space and got for the rest of the round always access to the battlefield and the spy plane will reveal all units for 30-60 seconds on the map and is usable after a couple of minutes again.

Just for the commando post - i discover the allies also had one, but it was cutscene exclusive. Still should be for mission-like maps.

For the passive defenses (Sandbags (Allies) and Barbed Wire (Soviets) (and Chain Link Fence): i animated destruction animations for them so it should be not hard to bring them in aside being pure map assets.
Role of them is to block light infantry and vehicles with Machine Guns, so rushes have to bring atleast one unit with tank shells, rockets or grenades to the party to get rid of them.

Also played around with the idea of the APP in 3DSMax and yes it would work and wouldn't take that much more space.
 

[Raptor29aa]

A Queen Ant 🐜 building... while I do like the idea of a large Tesla Queen, I feel a Giant Queen wouldn’t be scary (then again maybe I just lack imagination)

I could see the larva thing working as a bot mechanic for a Co-Op map.

 

 

[AZ-Stalker]

On 6/25/2020 at 6:57 PM, Metaridley said:

If a Dog Player sees a Spy, he should see not the soldier facette, instead see a british black suited man that run for his life.

So I could just find the best spot overlooking base entrances and become a sniper-dog looking for 007s? Doesn't seem that fun or fair to the spies.

Instead, why not make the dog play barking sounds when in range of the spy? This could be coupled with the targeting box showing red instead of friendly green as well. Not barking super close that it becomes an instant-bite scenario, but also not so far that you can locate them easily by just running around the general area. More like an inside-the-building kind of detection range. An added bonus would be all messages sent from the dog-player be displayed as "BARK!" or something. So you can't speak with humans, but you can alert them with the auto-detect barking while you hunt down the spies yourself (though voice chat brakes this). And then the hunt is on with a new type of defensive character class that doesn't allow you to abuse the potential running speed to spy on the enemy team and relay it back too fast - you'd have to run back and get a human character (again, only if you're not on voice chat). So that part might be a bit messy in implementation but it's just a fun idea from my end.

The bite attack itself though, I'd prefer it to be an area-of-effect type of thing or just targeting a larger kill-box because APB moves fast and twitchy, so it could be frustrating to time the bite. All of this depends on a lot of iteration and testing of course, so just take my thoughts as a bit of brain food to fuel further discussion.

[Metaridley]

3 hours ago, Raptor29aa said:

A Queen Ant 🐜 building... while I do like the idea of a large Tesla Queen, I feel a Giant Queen wouldn’t be scary (then again maybe I just lack imagination)

I could see the larva thing working as a bot mechanic for a Co-Op map.

In RA1 it was classified as a building. The Larvas could be a object to destroy OOOOOORRRRRRRRR if you want a map where one side play purely ants, thats basically the Purchase Terminal for ants.

 

2 hours ago, AZ-Stalker said:

So I could just find the best spot overlooking base entrances and become a sniper-dog looking for 007s? Doesn't seem that fun or fair to the spies.

Instead, why not make the dog play barking sounds when in range of the spy? This could be coupled with the targeting box showing red instead of friendly green as well. Not barking super close that it becomes an instant-bite scenario, but also not so far that you can locate them easily by just running around the general area. More like an inside-the-building kind of detection range. An added bonus would be all messages sent from the dog-player be displayed as "BARK!" or something. So you can't speak with humans, but you can alert them with the auto-detect barking while you hunt down the spies yourself (though voice chat brakes this). And then the hunt is on with a new type of defensive character class that doesn't allow you to abuse the potential running speed to spy on the enemy team and relay it back too fast - you'd have to run back and get a human character (again, only if you're not on voice chat). So that part might be a bit messy in implementation but it's just a fun idea from my end.

The bite attack itself though, I'd prefer it to be an area-of-effect type of thing or just targeting a larger kill-box because APB moves fast and twitchy, so it could be frustrating to time the bite. All of this depends on a lot of iteration and testing of course, so just take my thoughts as a bit of brain food to fuel further discussion.

i noticed myself thats a bit unfair but you could do it like in Apocalypse Rising. The Dog noticed the Spy only in a range of 15-20m and then the spy got a "!" over his head.
But i had the "Bark" idea for the Chat so dog players can't purely communicate with other players but can warn them if something is wrong in the base.

[Killing_You]

5 hours ago, AZ-Stalker said:

Instead, why not make the dog play barking sounds when in range of the spy? This could be coupled with the targeting box showing red instead of friendly green as well. Not barking super close that it becomes an instant-bite scenario, but also not so far that you can locate them easily by just running around the general area. More like an inside-the-building kind of detection range. An added bonus would be all messages sent from the dog-player be displayed as "BARK!" or something. So you can't speak with humans, but you can alert them with the auto-detect barking while you hunt down the spies yourself (though voice chat brakes this). And then the hunt is on with a new type of defensive character class that doesn't allow you to abuse the potential running speed to spy on the enemy team and relay it back too fast - you'd have to run back and get a human character (again, only if you're not on voice chat). So that part might be a bit messy in implementation but it's just a fun idea from my end.

This is somewhat similar to a concept I pitched for the Kennel a while back. Not as a production building that unlocks dogs, but as a passive defense that barks at any Allied player within range. Nothing else to it really, just a small building that barks like crazy when Allies get too close. Spies, engineers, Tanyas, etc... Where are they, specifically? Well, that is up to the vigilant Soviet team. The Kennel will point you in the right direction, but that's about it. Oh, and Allies, does that sound annoying to you? Don't worry, because it's the weakest structure in the entire game, so sending someone to destroy it in the early game is a valid tactic.

(DISCLAIMER: This was just something I pitched a while ago, and does not in any way reflect the plans or opinions of the APB team.)