Over Powered Stick bombs

[shoverno2]

Almost anyone knows that stick bombs are best at building demolition. I used alot of red tide/home guard to rush building. Many players done this too...

But it seems that this fact making engineer/technician/sapper useless at building infantry rush.

Having 5 stick bombs is too OP. It would be good to make set this value to 1-2. And even with this nerf this class still cool at long and short range against infantry.

Edited March 6, 2020 by shoverno2

[Voe]

+1

[TemporaryName]

but IA expert-DMB said that red tide/home guard is useless 
https://w3dhub.com/forum/topic/417336-too-many-useless-units/

throwing sticky bombs from outside building on MCT works only for Refinery and pp and I noticed only "WhereIsMyMedal" doing it.
it takes 21 seconds to kill building by this method so I would increase a bit reload between every bomb

[notDMB]

Another issue with them is they're basically undisarmable. 

[shoverno2]

50 minutes ago, TemporaryName said:

throwing sticky bombs from outside building on MCT works only for Refinery and pp and I noticed only "WhereIsMyMedal" doing it.
it takes 21 seconds to kill building by this method so I would increase a bit reload between every bomb

Actually, that's another building architecture problem. XD

Edited March 6, 2020 by shoverno2

[shoverno2]

51 minutes ago, TemporaryName said:

but IA expert-DMB said that red tide/home guard is useless 
https://w3dhub.com/forum/topic/417336-too-many-useless-units/

Yeah, funny,

100

oneshooting and melee powerful red tide

Fast cool grande boi

Awesome and cheap anti infantry officer

and cheapest way to gain regeneration

XD

[shoverno2]

49 minutes ago, notDMB said:

Another issue with them is they're basically undisarmable. 

What do you mean by saying "Undisarmable"?))

[der Papst]

4 hours ago, shoverno2 said:

What do you mean by saying "Undisarmable"?))

In Soviet Russia, bomb disarms you

[Threve]

Great. More nerfs..

 

Just mine your base, seriously it's that easy. If you see me or Where'sMyMedal on the other team do what I'm listing below. Although I am not that opposed to give a very slightly longer reload time on the sticky bombs.

 

If you're Nod on Winter Assault, mine the ladders immediately.

If you're GDI or Nod on Midway.mix mine your refinery and power plant first.

Mine your refinery first and power plant on Industrial Strength.

If you're playing as Nod, mine your power plant (or put a bunch of remote C4's) on Cold_wall.mix

Mine your Communications Center on Great_Under. 

Mine your Communications Center and your refinary on Infinite Isle. (Although for Nod this is mainly a Map problem as Defences on Nod side don't detect stealth)

Mine your Communications Center as Nod on Ridge_War.mix.

Mine your Refinery then your Con Yard on Mt.Pass.

Mine your HON as Nod on Vile_Facility.

Close_Combat gets a pass because its a meatgrinder.

 

I'm probably forgetting a map but you get the point. It's really that simple.

[shoverno2]

6 hours ago, Threve said:

Great. More nerfs..

 

Just mine your base, seriously it's that easy. If you see me or Where'sMyMedal on the other team do what I'm listing below. Although I am not that opposed to give a very slightly longer reload time on the sticky bombs.

But nerf should to be to improve usability for other classes that supposed to demolish buildings.

What will anyone take in choose of technicain/engeneer/commander/hotwire/Comissar and 5 stick bombs warrior? Of course everyone will take second variant.

5 stick bombs just making other units useless at building destroy job(

And i think time is not enough to make it better to take someone else to rush building...

(By the way, there's no problem in conterpart, i almost know how to mine base)

Edited March 7, 2020 by shoverno2

[Threve]

9 hours ago, shoverno2 said:

But nerf should to be to improve usability for other classes that supposed to demolish buildings.

What will anyone take in choose of technicain/engeneer/commander/hotwire/Comissar and 5 stick bombs warrior? Of course everyone will take second variant.

5 stick bombs just making other units useless at building destroy job(

And i think time is not enough to make it better to take someone else to rush building...

(By the way, there's no problem in conterpart, i almost know how to mine base)

A Hotwire or engi can run inside and do the same thing by calling in !ammo. I am willing to bet they can do it faster actually if you’re skilled enough (and place proxie mines to cover their tracks while waiting for !ammo to fall from the sky). 
 

As I’ve said before mine your base. I am willing to go on record here and say 95/100 of times a building gets blown up by a home guard or anyone else is because the base (as always) isn’t mined because people assume someone else will do it.

More nerfs won’t solve the problem of laziness. Mining your base immediately as I’ve pointed out on the maps above will. In fact, you’ll even get a free kill. You’re welcome. 

[Voe]

Chad 100 dalla combat unit which can blow up any building in 30 seconds vs. Virgin 400 dalla cannon fodder technician with 1m countdown, disarmable explosives.

Which part is so hard to understand? The cheaper unit with anti-tank nades should be more effective at building killing than a designated building demolisher

 

[shoverno2]

1 hour ago, Threve said:

A Hotwire or engi can run inside and do the same thing by calling in !ammo. I am willing to bet they can do it faster actually if you’re skilled enough (and place proxie mines to cover their tracks while waiting for !ammo to fall from the sky). 
 

As I’ve said before mine your base. I am willing to go on record here and say 95/100 of times a building gets blown up by a home guard or anyone else is because the base (as always) isn’t mined because people assume someone else will do it.

More nerfs won’t solve the problem of laziness. Mining your base immediately as I’ve pointed out on the maps above will. In fact, you’ll even get a free kill. You’re welcome. 

Technician/hotwire/engeneer are MUCH SLOWER at building demolition. While they need to wait for C4 to explode, home guard/red tide will done this in about 5 seconds!!!

About !ammo. It's useless at destroying 1 building, as engeneer/technician/hotwire (obviously hotwire) already having enough demo-stuff to destroy one building.

And about speed of building destroying process in top 4:

4) Technician - yes, he most ineffective at building demolition out of this top 4...

3) Hotwire - Having special demo pack, that making this class little bit better then Technician.

2) Engeneer - Yep, this is hilarious, but he really good at building demolition. And you know why? That's hilarious too XD, because of stick bomb XD

1)Home guard/red tide - obviously best speed at this job. There's no chance to disarm bombs, as thay not only explode fastly, but even will kill you XD.

And base mining is extremely important part, that defend building from(almost) any demo-class. So, there's no need to talk about mines, because it's fine.

[Voe]

4 minutes ago, shoverno2 said:

Home guard/red tide - obviously best speed at this job. There's no chance to disarm bombs, as thay not only explode fastly, but even will kill you XD.

 

Spot on. The stickies can be thrown at the MCT while the enemy is shooting at you. Not only they won't be able to disarm them, the bombs themselves are also likely to kill any upcoming defenders.

[shoverno2]

15 minutes ago, Voe said:

Chad 100 dalla combat unit which can blow up any building in 30 seconds vs. Virgin 400 dalla cannon fodder technician with 1m countdown, disarmable explosives.

Which part is so hard to understand? The cheaper unit with anti-tank nades should be more effective at building killing than a designated building demolisher

 

Actually, it's awesome anti-infantry troop. You can shot your enemy, shot from afar and make some close combat with really effective no ammo and reload rifle knife!

It's like Russian Mosin rifle.

There's a joke about it.

Why that's Illegal to shot robber with Mosin rifle? Only because you will kill 7 robbers by one bullet. That bullet will continue bursting forward through wall and will kill your neighbors.

Edited March 7, 2020 by shoverno2

[shoverno2]

7 minutes ago, Voe said:

Spot on. The stickies can be thrown at the MCT while the enemy is shooting at you. Not only they won't be able to disarm them, the bombs themselves are also likely to kill any upcoming defenders.

Actually,

1)You just need to throw 4 stick bombs and "boom". Theres almost no time to conterpart. You just looking at that dude going in and you can't do anything!

2) Stick bombs having SUCH BIG AoE radius, that even can kill the owner. (Damage is instantly deadly)

Edited March 7, 2020 by shoverno2

[Threve]

Wut. Timed C4 takes 30 seconds to explode. Also calling in ammo gives you a total count of 10 proxie mines and 4 Remote C4’s at your disposal. 
 

Call in ammo when you get inside, throw 2 remote C4’s, ammo drops reloading you instantly, throw another 2 remote C4’s and the building explodes. Depending on enemies running to you, you can place proxie mines to cover your tracks. But this runs into the same exact problem as before of the fact that you did not mine your base. 
 

Just shoot the person who’s not even attacking you throwing Sticky Bombs at the MCT. Or better yet, mine your base....
 

Also, in b4 “Timed C4’s/Remote C4’s/calling in !ammo should be nerfed like the HomeGuard was because I cannot mine my buildings on the maps like Threve posted above at the start of the match”.

[shoverno2]

Just now, Threve said:

Wut. Timed C4 takes 30 seconds to explode. Also calling in ammo gives you a total count of 10 proxie mines and 4 Remote C4’s at your disposal. 
 

Call in ammo when you get inside, throw 2 remote C4’s, ammo drops reloading you instantly, throw another 2 remote C4’s and the building explodes. Depending on enemies running to you, you can place proxie mines to cover your tracks. But this runs into the same exact problem as before of the fact that you did not mine your base. 
 

Just shoot the person who’s not even attacking you throwing Sticky Bombs at the MCT. Or better yet, mine your base....
 

Also, in b4 “Timed C4’s/Remote C4’s/calling in !ammo should be nerfed like the HomeGuard was because I cannot mine my buildings on the maps like Threve posted above at the start of the match”.

*8 proxie mines total

4 Remote C4 can't kill building.

At the end: "There's no time to explain!". Just throw 4 stick bombs and "call it a day", building kill.

30 seconds is too long time, regarding of ~5 seconds.

And then summ cheap price.

It's OP, nothing else. Demo-stuff of red tide/home guard should to be nerfed or something, really (

Oh! I forget to mention that red tide/home guard having fine arsenal to rush building even with crew

 

[Threve]

3 minutes ago, shoverno2 said:

*8 proxie mines total

4 Remote C4 can't kill building.

Oh my bad, just get a free Engi and then call in ammo. 
 

The best part about all of this is that the more you argue how this unit can destroy a building, the more it cycles back to the root of the problem which is not mining your base as said above.

“Remove sticky bombs, use Timed C4 instead, nerf this unit that can kill a building that *both teams have available to them*”

Is Threve, Where’sMyMedal, Roz ir someone who typically uses these units playing.

”Yes”

Ok

Did you mine your base as said above in the typical routes these people go. 
“No”

Ok.

 

Are you going to mine your base at the start like I said above. 
“No, I just want the unit nerfed or removed.”

Ok. 
 

Again, as said I would favor a very slightly longer reload time on the sticky bombs but that’s about it.

[shoverno2]

13 minutes ago, Threve said:

Oh my bad, just get a free Engi and then call in ammo. 
 

The best part about all of this is that the more you argue how this unit can destroy a building, the more it cycles back to the root of the problem which is not mining your base as said above.

“Remove sticky bombs, use Timed C4 instead, nerf this unit that can kill a building that *both teams have available to them*”

Is Threve, Where’sMyMedal, Roz ir someone who typically uses these units playing.

”Yes”

Ok

Did you mine your base as said above in the typical routes these people go. 
“No”

Ok.

 

Are you going to mine your base at the start like I said above. 
“No, I just want the unit nerfed or removed.”

Ok. 
 

Again, as said I would favor a very slightly longer reload time on the sticky bombs but that’s about it.

Well,...

1) Engeneer don't need !ammo, as i said above. You almost forgot that he having... What?... Right! He having stick bomb that finishing building! So, it's fine, he not a really good fighter anyway, he deserving nice demo-pack.

2) OMG, i was always known about mining base, and there all ok! Just why you still talking about it XD

3)Welp, it's unlogical. Even if red tide/home guard will be nerfed at demo-arsenal, then there always would be Comissar, technician, hotwire and engineer.

Just understand! Red tide/home guard demo pack making OTHER classes MUCH useless. For example, like stealth tank making infiltrator AT useless(But in this case Infiltrator need buff, and this "Other side of coin"...)

And again, base mining is ONLY CONTERPART to infantry infiltration. And i understand, anybody (almost anyone) understand that too.

Edited March 7, 2020 by shoverno2

[Guard55]

I'm a bit on the fence about this one. The idea that an infantry unit that costs so little can do so much damage to a building by itself, more damage than a combat engineer, sapper, or a technician/hotwire, really makes me think. At the same time if you're letting one slip through the defenses, no one is to blame but the people that let them slip through in the first place.

 

I'm more in favor with buffing the other infantry choices instead of nerfing the home guard or red tide.

 

EDIT: Didn't the AT Soldier/Shotgun Trooper have a Sticky Bomb way back in the day?

Edited March 7, 2020 by Guard55
Remembered something.

[shoverno2]

Just now, Guard55 said:

I'm more in favor with buffing the other infantry choices instead of nerfing the home guard or red tide.

Hmm...

Im imagining engeneer oneshoting building inside XD

But interesting idea. Really, what about "hacking" the building? That would be pretty interesting...

Also, the one main problem in red tide/home guard is that thay so cheap, so other team will late at mining base. Remember close combat map. It's red tide/home guard chaos battle every time!

[Voe]

The root of the problem is that, in its current form, the red tide/home guard is so cheap that you can buy him immediately upon a match start, and blow an enemy building BEFORE they get a reasonable chance to mine the entirety of their base. When the base is mined, you'll need a techie/hotwire to get through.

Red tide/home guard have 1 purpose right now - bumrush the enemy base at the start of a match and knock out a building right there and then. All while being retardedly powerful. Without the need to use an !ammo drop (which you can't afford at that stage). And it's exactly how they're used.

A stupid unit design.

[shoverno2]

12 minutes ago, Voe said:

Red tide/home guard have 1 purpose right now - bumrush the enemy base at the start of a match and knock out a building right there and then. All while being retardedly powerful. Without the need to use an !ammo drop (which you can't afford at that stage). And it's exactly how they're used.

A stupid unit design.

As for me, i like to use it as cheap and awasome anti-infantry...

Maybe it's need to set stick bombs value to 1...

And of course give to him something else! For example, more rockets for "Шмель"(Shmel) Rocket Launcher.

By the way, it's just satisfying to use "Шмеля" and rifle...

...

And what about other players that like to use stick bombs to rush building? Well, it's better to give +4 bombs for pure red tide sharpshooter (just nobody using it, sadly, he having such cool anti infantry potential...), other idea is to add new unit.

Actually, there are one cool boi from red alert. Yeah, Crazy Ivan! There in interim apex are already dynamite stick granades and 7 stick bombs. Everything already almost done, and then +1 Nod infiltrate troop to compromise GDI spy)

[Threve]

1 hour ago, Voe said:

Blow an enemy building BEFORE they get a reasonable chance to mine the entirety of their base.

You don't need to do that. Just mine the buildings i said above on said maps in the order. Every other building is covered by defenses and unable to be rushed with a X1A Brazillian Tank/Home Guard.

 

In addition, you start out with 300 credits. Just ask your team to donate you 50 while heading to the buildings on the maps i listed above (By the time you are donated 50 credits you'll have 400 credits total). Buy a Combat engi or techie and place the mines. At this time, any rush with a home guard will be at the locations I said above. You will then kill everyone who jumps out and goes into the building.

 

2 hours ago, Threve said:

Is Threve, Where’sMyMedal, Roz ir someone who typically uses these units playing.

”Yes”

Ok

Did you mine your base as said above in the typical routes these people go. 
“No”

Ok.

 

Are you going to mine your base at the start like I said above. 
“No, I just want the unit nerfed or removed.”

Ok. 

 

[Raptor29aa]

I thought the root of the problem was blowing up a building by throwing a stick bomb at an MCT without entering the building

(As in C4 does nothing if the attacker can arc the explosive without entering)

[Threve]

On 3/6/2020 at 1:58 PM, shoverno2 said:

Actually, that's another building architecture problem. XD

 

17 minutes ago, Raptor29aa said:

I thought the root of the problem was blowing up a building by throwing a stick bomb at an MCT without entering the building

(As in C4 does nothing if the attacker can arc the explosive without entering)

 

That comes down to building design in that situation. I have no problem with a building being changed to not allow this as standing outside (away from mines) I don't believe is fair and can be done on some maps. I would rather a building be slightly changed to not allow this than a unit be nerfed substantially to where they cannot preform as expected.

[shoverno2]

41 minutes ago, Threve said:

...unit be nerfed substantially to where they cannot preform as expected.

Stick bombs is not actually purpose of red tide/home guard. First of all it's Anti Infantry.

Even if stick bombs will be counted down, red tide/home guard will not lose its potential. 

Well, by the way, it will still possible to rush building with two red tide/home guard with help of !ammo.

The !donate at start to mine base is really good idea. Only one(little) problem is there's no 100% chance that teammates will donate you. Still, it's really little problem, so there's almost fine))

[notDMB]

Yeah, I used to think this unit was useless. 

It still is except for this cheese. Which is pretty gay and unfun with no real counterplay if they get on top of an MCT. One can argue, hey, if you didn't mine your base jokes on you. I would also argue that there's a large variety of reasons someone could have gotten into your base, such as there being 3 people doing it, or 1 Home Guard and 1 Military Police (firesuit armor). Or someone bumrushing your base at the very start before you can effectively mine it because you spawned on the other side of the base that takes 30 seconds to cross and defenses are fucking worthless. It's just not well designed, the unit. It's got a bolt action rifle and sticky bombs, that it will NEVER use against tanks because it has no way to realistically engage a tank that doesn't drive on top of it, and if you want anti tank there's much better units. It exists specifically to kill a building at the start, which I would double argue is a bad thing inherently. 

Destroying a building within the first 5 minutes of the game, should honestly, just end the game with the team that blew it up getting the victory. Losing a building at the start is garbage, it means the match is inherently less diverse and fun. A worst case scenario, losing HoN/Bar or Air/War Factory means you have no way to win the game except against the most braindead of retards. Losing PP or Refinery means you have no ability to leave your base because your income is crippled, making the game incredibly slow due to one team effectively losing all initiative for anything except sneeki breeki. 

Either that, or building rebuilding should be tied to game time, not playercount, so that restoring a destroyed building costs 3000-6000 for the first 10 minutes, and scales up to 30,000-75,000 by the hour mark. 

But realistically, one 100 credit infantry shouldn't be the best anti building unit in the game. Their grenades could just deal steel_nobuilding and fire splash damage and they would be fine. Either that or their timer needs to be longer or they need to have like 1 disarm hp so engineers can in fact disarm them. But then, of course, if you couldn't solo a Con Yard with one, they'd be useless because the unit has garbage weapons for actually playing the game instead of doing PvE. 

[notDMB]

Oh also placing proxy mines in the other team's base should be a bannable offense.