Balance Power Plant function

[SarahNautili]

The advanced power plant was also kinda ridiculously big and a lot harder to defend than the normal Power Plant.

[Einstein]

The advanced power plant was also kinda ridiculously big and a lot harder to defend than the normal Power Plant.

Yup. Large structures in FPS games are inherently more difficult to defend.

[Killing_You]

I felt like the APP was more fun, in that regard. Nothing against the regular Power Plant, but I enjoyed the layout of the APP.

[System Error Message]

I like that the advanced power plant was implemented in maps with more buildings such as where more power would be needed in an equivalent RA RTS. I hope the same trend can continue for RA2 where the allies would need 2 power plants whereas the soviets with the nuclear power plant.

[Einstein]

I like that the advanced power plant was implemented in maps with more buildings such as where more power would be needed in an equivalent RA RTS.

 

Just a quick reminder that the....

The Advanced power plant is removed currently because it was considered at the time, a redundant structure. Will it make a return? No idea.

 

Also:

I hope the same trend can continue for RA2 where the allies would need 2 power plants whereas the soviets with the nuclear power plant.

 

This has already been answered in another thread, and the idea applies to APB as well.

Allies don't need more than one power plant unless there is a specific objective map that requires it. The gameplay just doesn't work that way. We have to cut features that were in RA2 because AR is a shooter. If we were to implement everything from RA2 then we may as well be playing RA2.

[System Error Message]

I think removing the advanced power plant is a bad idea. The reason for having the advanced power plant isnt just to indicate the need for more power but also because the building should have more health than the standard power plant since you would have more buildings relying on it for power. So for maps with more power hungry buildings that should have the advanced power plant, because it should be a tougher building. It would make things weird if you just increased the normal power plant health for those maps, would make the game feel too inconsistent.

[delta]

The power plants in APB don't need to correspond exactly to the way they were in RA1. I mean, in regular Renegade you had a power plant supporting a Refinery, Hand of Nod, Airfield, and an Obelisk. Could it do that in TD? No. But for the sake of gameplay and simplicity, just assume it can. Otherwise you'd have to have two advanced power plants to support your two Tesla Coils on KotG, or a whole lot more regular ones...either of which would clutter up the map and be impossible to defend.

[Einstein]

delta gets a gold star!

[FRAYDO]

[harvester]

Agree with delta, we don't need an advanced version of something when it has the same function as the generic version. It's redundant.

 

Just assume the game's power plant can support the entire base - problem solved.

 

If we were to implement everything from RA then we may as well be playing RA.

[System Error Message]

Its not about removing the power plant, its more that the regular power plant isnt too difficult to destroy. The advanced power plant should have more health than the normal power plant which is the reason for having it.

[Killing_You]

It would be better to have the Advanced Power Plant on larger maps (such as ToTheCore) where bases are designed to accommodate larger structures. It's not needed on any of the maps we have now, but I'd like to see it return with the maps it was originally placed with... although Hourglass could be downgraded to a simple Power Plant.

[Pushwall]

Its not about removing the power plant, its more that the regular power plant isnt too difficult to destroy.

 

The regular power plant that has the exact same health as any other non-Construction Yard building since this is not RA where a V2 being able to kill it in one shot is apparently good game design? Why have I never heard from anyone else that main buildings die too easily? Hell all I hear about is how they stay alive too easily because of engineers.

[Isaac The Madd]

Here is an idea that probably would not work on this engine, have price of engineers increase for players who buy it consecutively and reset when that player dies.

[Einstein]

Here is an idea that probably would not work on this engine, have price of engineers increase for players who buy it consecutively and reset when that player dies.

Elaborate a bit for us on this. For what purpose?

[Isaac The Madd]

This is so that people abuse the golden wrench less.

[Pushwall]

A ridiculously roundabout way of making engineers less OP that would be better solved by just reducing the golden wrench's repair speed, the amount of health that each purchase can repair, or a flat increase of the engineer's price (the last of which would also discourage use of his offensive role which is also a bad idea).

[Einstein]

A ridiculously roundabout way of making engineers less OP that would be better solved by just reducing the golden wrench's repair speed, the amount of health that each purchase can repair, or a flat increase of the engineer's price (the last of which would also discourage use of his offensive role which is also a bad idea).

Does the supply truck refill the wrench as it does the C4?

[Pushwall]

Nope. Doesn't refill a-bomb flares either.

[VERTi60]

As I used to mention this on BHP a lot too, the whole concept of some of the buildings being nothing more than "weak-points" is bad (e.g. you're better off without radar dome and pp/APP than actually having them). Why not bind the Domes to have actual all-see radar and artillery units? Why not have APP/PP boost your economy or production rate instead? Having some small perks instead of just having weak points that are made up just because you have the building.

 

If you don't have the building you no longer have the weakpoint but you shouldn't have "perks" as well.

[Pushwall]

Why not bind the Domes to have actual all-see radar and artillery units?

Radar range adjustments midgame are not doable I'm pretty sure. Unless you're just asking for no radar or team-only radar which is horrible. As for the latter, you are asking for artillery units to be excluded from half the maps or for all those maps to be redesigned to include a dome - in many instances either having to displace another building or completely redesign the terrain to make room. Having no artillery/V2 on Guard Duty, Camos Canyon, Zama, and no V2s on Seamist doesn't sound very fun. Especially since Soviets are already disadvantaged on Seamist and seemingly almost all of their victories come from V2s.

 

Why not have APP/PP boost your economy or production rate instead?

Because the maps with power plants also happen to have some of the strongest economies (ask anyone about complex/KOTG) and don't need any help and making a significant reduction in those economies requires - you guessed it - major terraforming?

 

If you don't have the building you no longer have the weakpoint but you shouldn't have "perks" as well.

If a map doesn't have a visible radar dome or power plant, then it's there but outside the map boundaries where nobody can destroy it. Ever notice the power lines on Guard Duty, Pipeline and Ridge War?

And on Seamist, no matter what perks the radar dome itself has that could possibly set it apart from maps that don't have a dome, it will always have the "weakpoint" issue of it causing a GAME OVER when destroyed because that's the objective. But apparently that's not a problem, so just view all the power plant/dome maps as maps with an objective where you have to protect the power plant/dome or you lose power/radar for not doing so.

[VERTi60]

Radar range adjustments midgame are not doable I'm pretty sure. Unless you're just asking for no radar or team-only radar which is horrible.

 

I don't see an issue here.

Why would it be horrible to have team radar only on infantry or low level maps (which play fast). Enemy radar is already revealing too much when you can already see half of the map by yourself, it would at least make cover or sneak tactics make some meaning. APB has already lost it's "spark" when it comes to sneak tactics or unseen rushes. Really the all-seeing, every-time functioning enemy radar could be considered as redundant or bonus feature, the game play wouldn't be affected with or without it that much (does everyone go for the enemy radar dome first? >No because losing radar anyway is not that crippling for the other team). Why would it then be a problem on maps without radar?! At least it would give some dynamic to the game and a real meaning for the Radar Dome, not just a weak point mechanic.

 

 

As for the latter, you are asking for artillery units to be excluded from half the maps or for all those maps to be redesigned to include a dome - in many instances either having to displace another building or completely redesign the terrain to make room. Having no artillery/V2 on Guard Duty, Camos Canyon, Zama, and no V2s on Seamist doesn't sound very fun. Especially since Soviets are already disadvantaged on Seamist and seemingly almost all of their victories come from V2s

 

Yea why not have maps that don't have artillery units. We used to have guard duty and some maps without them, and some of them played better. We have enough AOW maps already.

Besides, we can have a neutral Dome in the mid field on Guard Duty where one side can capture it and then could produce the artillery unit. Might be a bit more interesting to have a mechanic like this since Guard duty is pretty dull where it comes to B2B artillery shoot outs.

Zama doesn't really need artillery units since it has air as support (most of the time people buy air units before artillery).

Camos Canyon would probably be better off without artillery units because the map is pretty flat and small without much cover.

Seamist - to be discussed, I can imagine adding a soviet dome could be done as there were multiple changes to fit more soviet structures already. If that can't be done, there could be an exception or a limited number of soviet v2s (as counterpart to one allied artillery).

 

 

Because the maps with power plants also happen to have some of the strongest economies (ask anyone about complex/KOTG) and don't need any help and making a significant reduction in those economies requires - you guessed it - major terraforming?

 

IMHO, this is a design flaw from the beginning. There is no logical sense of having the extra PP in base when it does nothing. Either have them on every base map, or have some advantage to go with it. Otherwise it's just a waste of space.

 

 

If a map doesn't have a visible radar dome or power plant, then it's there but outside the map boundaries where nobody can destroy it. Ever notice the power lines on Guard Duty, Pipeline and Ridge War?

All I see is advocating why it's ok to have Radar Dome and PP/APP as weak-point but disregarding their perks or purpose for that matter. Logically it doesn't make sense. We have buildings which are producing nothing, doing nothing, just standing there to cripple you if they are destroyed. There's no point of having them then, let's just put power lines everywhere instead.

 

 

And on Seamist, no matter what perks the radar dome itself has that could possibly set it apart from maps that don't have a dome, it will always have the "weakpoint" issue of it causing a GAME OVER when destroyed because that's the objective. But apparently that's not a problem, so just view all the power plant/dome maps as maps with an objective where you have to protect the power plant/dome or you lose power/radar for not doing so.

I'm all for having objectives assigned to buildings. At least it's giving them some purpose. Why not having them on more maps where they could be neutral and give perks to one side if captured (normally the proper way would be to build them in the first place, but that's not possible).

[Pushwall]

IMHO, this is a design flaw from the beginning. There is no logical sense of having the extra PP in base when it does nothing. Either have them on every base map, or have some advantage to go with it. Otherwise it's just a waste of space.

 

Besides providing an alternative way of disabling the coil/gap than just attacking them directly? Currently there is no map that contains a Gap Generator that doesn't also contain a Power Plant so they might as well be tied in that way, and the only Tesla Coil maps that don't have a power plant are Seamist (where the coils are meant to be near-unassailable) and Ridge War (where, like Seamist, you have aircraft to avoid being forced to ground rush the coil. People have argued that this map could do without the coil though.) Coastal Influence is losing its coil next patch. So that leaves... one map where the tesla coil exists without a PP but isn't also a "no, allies are not supposed to attack on this map" check. And conversely, there is no map that contains a Power Plant that does not also contain a coil AND a gap. One even has multiple coils and gaps! So besides the one exception of Ridge War's free-power coil, the bonus of having a power plant is that you get a coil/gap to go along with it!

 

Zama doesn't really need artillery units since it has air as support

Zama

air

 

Gamma is no longer supported in any capacity so why are you making suggestions for Gamma?

[VERTi60]

Besides providing an alternative way of disabling the coil/gap than just attacking them directly? Currently there is no map that contains a Gap Generator that doesn't also contain a Power Plant so they might as well be tied in that way, and the only Tesla Coil maps that don't have a power plant are Seamist (where the coils are meant to be near-unassailable) and Ridge War (where, like Seamist, you have aircraft to avoid being forced to ground rush the coil. People have argued that this map could do without the coil though.) Coastal Influence is losing its coil next patch. So that leaves... one map where the tesla coil exists without a PP but isn't also a "no, allies are not supposed to attack on this map" check. And conversely, there is no map that contains a Power Plant that does not also contain a coil AND a gap. One even has multiple coils and gaps! So besides the one exception of Ridge War's free-power coil, the bonus of having a power plant is that you get a coil/gap to go along with it!

Again we're talking about weak-points not something which does have another purpose. It's a nice trait to have this linked to the advanced def structures but then again you don't have many maps with gap gen. And as you mentioned there are maps with TCs but no PPs so it's not even consistent for soviets.

 

 

Gamma is no longer supported in any capacity so why are you making suggestions for Gamma?

Actually even the very old versions before gamma had air. I kinda miss the Chinook flare rush on that particular map.

The map is more fun with air than artillery anyway.

[Pushwall]

Again we're talking about weak-points not something which does have another purpose. It's a nice trait to have this linked to the advanced def structures but then again you don't have many maps with gap gen.

 

There are even less maps with missile silos and I don't see any complaints about the limited availability of a-bomb flares.

 

If the power plant serves no purpose because it's possible to place functional powered defenses without it, then the refinery is useless because it's possible to place a functional dump script zone without it (which some of Timeaua's Reborn maps did and nobody ever piped up about that!) Or that the construction yard is useless because it's possible to add a script that says "heal all soviet buildings this many HPs per second" without it. Or that the helipad is useless because it's possible to tie aircraft production to another main building and exclusively use refill pads for refilling instead

[VERTi60]

 

Again we're talking about weak-points not something which does have another purpose. It's a nice trait to have this linked to the advanced def structures but then again you don't have many maps with gap gen.

There are even less maps with missile silos and I don't see any complaints about the limited availability of a-bomb flares.

 

If the power plant serves no purpose because it's possible to place functional powered defenses without it, then the refinery is useless because it's possible to place a functional dump script zone without it (which some of Timeaua's Reborn maps did and nobody ever piped up about that!) Or that the construction yard is useless because it's possible to add a script that says "heal all soviet buildings this many HPs per second" without it. Or that the helipad is useless because it's possible to tie aircraft production to another main building and exclusively use refill pads for refilling instead

 

Now you are simply inventing how to make even more buildings obsolete, great job, Pushwall!

You forgot that you can also chinook or para-drop vehicles or have infantry change via the terminals on the ground too

Then we'll just have empty bases full of script zones instead.

[Pushwall]

But now surely you can figure out why we don't do that?

[VERTi60]

But now surely you can figure out why we don't do that?

 

You don't have a WF - you don't have vehicles. You don't have a helipad - you don't have air.

 

 

So why not have the same concept for APP and Dome? Having them is even worse than having a script zone.

[Pushwall]

So why not have the same concept for APP and Dome? Having them is even worse than having a script zone.

 

The concept is already there for the PP mostly. If you don't have a PP, you don't have high tech defenses. There are only two exceptions to this:

• Seamist, where the Allies are not meant to be able to attack the Soviet base. Downgrading the coils to flame towers just because there's no PP means you get Nuclear Winter where there's practically a wall of flame towers which do not matter because longbows exist (and the arty, but that's much more reasonable to remove than the only buyable vehicle on the map). Adding a power plant would mean Allies can spy it and suddenly they're the aggressors and Soviets lose.
• Ridge War, which isn't justified like Seamist's is, but we tried the map without a coil in one patch and it led to Allies almost always winning. If you want me to add a PP to a map that has no room in the back of the base to add it, is utter hell to redo VIS for, and would unbalance it because Soviets have to defend more structures than the Allies do (unless they also got a PP which they have even less room for)... :/

As for the Dome... since neither the PP or dome buildings have any editable parameters in LE that point to the PP powering the dome or the dome depending on the PP, but it still seems that destroying the PP powers down the dome, and it seems the dome is capable of functioning without a PP in the first place, guess what that means? Yeah, in order to maintain your desired effect of "if you don't have a PP, you don't have power", we'd have to do all these things to conform to that:

• Remove the radar dome from maps that lack a power plant, or vice versa. Have fun on Seamist! Also have fun with there being even less venues to employ the MRJ! Also have fun with all that newfound empty space!
• Add the radar dome to maps that do have a power plant, or vice versa. Have fun finding room for that in, well, any currently existing map that has a power plant or radar and not both, except Complex which actually does have room to put a dome and I might even do it.
• Stick a disable radar script on everything in all the domeless maps (the easy part). Have fun trying to find flares on Zama, find phase tanks ANYWHERE, find your way to either base on Wasteland, find infantry almost anywhere since most maps are far less open and more cover-laden than their Gamma incarnations where it was very hard for infantry to sneak around without being seen.
• Oh and we'd have to remove all AA defenses from PPless maps since those use power too. Because, you know, Hourglass and Zama were absolutely not the worst non-DM maps in Gamma.
• Alternatively we would have to add a PP (and subsequently, a dome as well) to those maps. Have fun finding room etc etc.
• Oh, and if we go about adding PPs and a Soviet dome to Seamist because coils and AA need power, that means Allies have to pay attention to TWO buildings which they only have to lose ONE of to lose the game (unless they're just magically able to call and guide reinforcements with the power down). Alternatively, we just remove the dome and coils/AA defs altogether and there's no "where's this power coming from" issues but Allies are also left without an objective to defend unless it switches to their barracks which gets easily camped due to being the one spawn location. Joy.
• Redo VIS on almost every map that has had a PP/dome newly added to preserve performance. Some of which would be air maps. Fuck that.

And lest I mention: https://secure.w3dhub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=415653

[delta]

Its not about removing the power plant, its more that the regular power plant isnt too difficult to destroy. The advanced power plant should have more health than the normal power plant which is the reason for having it.

If it's decided that the regular power plant is too easy to destroy, then the most obvious solution is just to buff its hitpoints. You don't necessarily need to have a bigger power plant in order to improve its in-game stats. Now if for some reason it's decided that we want to have a bigger power plant (earlier versions of APB only used the advanced power plant), then sure whatever...but the point is that in-game stats aren't necessarily dependent on cosmetics (which you should know if you ever edited the rules.ini for any C&C game).

 

Regarding the radar dome and the "penalty" for losing it...I do find myself sometimes wishing it just wasn't present on the map. Losing your radar seems pretty crippling, and especially so since you need it to help spot mines as well as determine who owns the neutral tech structures on Pipeline and Hostile Waters.