A Path Beyond Siege Feedback

[Raap]

Hey guys,

 

 

Unfortunately I haven't been able to play the map alongside any of you, so I'll ask it here;

 

How does the map play, and how is the performance (FPS)?

 

I'm still available to make any adjustments for gameplay (nothing dramatic however).

 

If performance is consistently perfect for everyone, then I'll give Pushwall a file to import, which adds some more detail across the map. I was holding back on going crazy on more plants and base props due to performance concerns... Smooth gameplay is more important than anything else, after all.

 

Known issue currently is the black water, this is due to a rendering change and requires updated water settings.

 

EDIT: I will not give away any tips on how to solve the map secret, you can stop asking now. 

Edited December 17, 2016 by Raap

[Raap]

I'll keep an eye on this thread for the weekend, but if nothing comes up by Monday, I'm officially moving on from this project, to work on my last contribution.

 

If you got no bugs or gameplay issues to report, do feel free to comment of client performance (during an online match). If enough people report good performance, I'll enhance some parts of the map. If I hear nothing, I'll side with being on the safe side and not make any further changes or additions.

[NoSoldier]

I have stable 56 fps around the map. (Glory for my old Nvidia) Haven't noticed any bugs whilst looking at the whole map at the fifth time to find that damn orb.

Edited December 18, 2016 by NoSoldier

[JigglyJie]

A few minor notes. I don't have any images to back this up, but a stolen enemy Hind was able to attack and nearly destroy the Soviet Helipad despite there being three operational SAM Sites there. I thought that was a little ridiculous considering but whether that was kind of intended or not, I'm not sure. I feel the AA in the bases are a little cramped, and I personally find it hard how a Hind can avoid that scenario?

 

I also feel the medieval cannons repair a tad too fast. Some Allied Engineer was in one and I attacked it with a Hind, I was doing good damage but he hopped out and was outrepairing me and I was effectively hopeless, even a second Hind came along and was struggling to bring it down but we managed to destroy it in the end. As far as I know, Longbows don't have a problem with it considering the amount of raw damage they dish out. (though I could be wrong)

 

On the subject of cannons, I assume the cannon plays a central role here in (obviously) besieging the enemy base but I think a minor, infantry path leading to the enemy base would be neat (unless I'm blind and there is one, I haven't fully explored it). I tried sneaking in the Allied base but failed because the Pillbox spotted me. That or make the water not too deep closest to the defences?

 

Granted that was my real first playthrough so it's not a big deal currently.

Edited December 18, 2016 by JigglyJie

[Raap]

A few minor notes. I don't have any images to back this up, but a stolen enemy Hind was able to attack and nearly destroy the Soviet Helipad despite there being three operational SAM Sites there. I thought that was a little ridiculous considering but whether that was kind of intended or not, I'm not sure. I feel the AA in the bases are a little cramped, and I personally find it hard how a Hind can avoid that scenario?

 

The SAM Sites aren't perfect and can be avoided easily, same applies to AA Guns. The SAM Sites are just a bit more vulnerable to it, so that's why they have an extra one. Base defenses on this map are not intended to make your base bullet proof, but just idiot-proof. I felt that we had enough maps already with strong base defense layouts, and we could use one with less ideal layouts.

 

I also feel the medieval cannons repair a tad too fast. Some Allied Engineer was in one and I attacked it with a Hind, I was doing good damage but he hopped out and was outrepairing me and I was effectively hopeless, even a second Hind came along and was struggling to bring it down but we managed to destroy it in the end. As far as I know, Longbows don't have a problem with it considering the amount of raw damage they dish out. (though I could be wrong)

The downside of solo testing is the potential of missing issues like this. If it really is problematic, Pushwall may have to create a duplicate armor of the one it is currently using (MCT), and lower the repair rate on this new armor type without affecting the TTK for other things against cannons. The same lowered repair values can then also be applied to the debris armor type. It's probably worth noting that what you experienced was likely the effect of a golden wrench, not a regular repair tool.

 

(EDIT: An alternative solution is to make the MCT armor clone receive more damage from air units. The cannons are supposed to be taken out by aircraft mainly, followed by infantry, this is why they are mostly defenseless against them.)

 

On the subject of cannons, I assume the cannon plays a central role here in (obviously) besieging the enemy base but I think a minor, infantry path leading to the enemy base would be neat (unless I'm blind and there is one, I haven't fully explored it). I tried sneaking in the Allied base but failed because the Pillbox spotted me. That or make the water not too deep closest to the defences?

There is an infantry path, it's called Chinooks, and BOTH sides can purchase them on this map. The idea is that using Chinooks, you can cros the lake and avoid the castle entirely. The Soviets can land on the cliff near the Allied base, and the Allies can land on the beach or farm near the Soviet base. It pays to station anti-air in those locations and try to destroy incoming aircraft while they are above the lake (causing passengers to die to the water/fall damage).

Edited December 18, 2016 by Raap

[SarahNautili]

I did throw a bug on the bug tracker - the Allied CY ladders are nonfunctional.

 

Also it's possible to drive an arty up on the helicopter landing pads, but then near impossible to drive it off said landing pads, but eh, that may not be worth fixing

[Raap]

The CY ladder issue is game-wide (or should be) since buildings are proxied and un-editted.

 

The landing pad issue is notable, and I know what causes it, an oversight on my end; The top doesn't have a proper collision mesh.

[SarahNautili]

Ok, now I'm confused. I went back to double check, and they're functional now. Weird. It was happening to me all day the other day, even after several map restarts, now, not happening at all.

Edited December 19, 2016 by SarahNautili

[Raap]

This is sometimes how bugs slip through the cracks, you think you fixed them but then it turns out you didn't. In this case, your report is very valid, because I see a clear problem with the mesh.

 

Feedback seems on the light side even over the weekend, this either means people really got little to report, or not enough matches have been played.

 

APB Delta is now starting to have a problem not seen since Renegade; We may have too many maps in rotation...

 

I'm going to hold on for further performance related feedback before assigning time to a Siege visual fluff-up. Understand this; The lack of performance complaints is a big surprise to me and probably to Pushwall as well, because the map has no visibility culling system implemented!

Edited December 19, 2016 by Raap

[SarahNautili]

Is it just me or does the map jukebox REALLY like that one Hell March Remix, Crush Remix, and... not much of anything else? I think I've had Big Foot play once the entire time I've been messing around on the map.

[Raap]

I set it up as mirrored to other maps, but I did notice that certain tracks occur more often. When I work on these projects I don't often listen to in-game music, and when I do, well, I sort of block it out mentally because hearing the same sound tracks for hours does this.

 

It is possible that the music rotation is not working as intended...  As in, the rotation is random at the moment after the first track, which I thought was the point. I could have missed the point. I sometimes miss a point...

Edited December 19, 2016 by Raap

[Pushwall]

Is it just me or does the map jukebox REALLY like that one Hell March Remix, Crush Remix, and... not much of anything else? I think I've had Big Foot play once the entire time I've been messing around on the map.

 

It is possible that the music rotation is not working as intended...  As in, the rotation is random at the moment after the first track, which I thought was the point. I could have missed the point. I sometimes miss a point...

 

Just checked and it's definitely set up the same way as the official rotation. You're probably getting unlucky Sarah, either that or you just subconsciously tune out the songs that you've heard too much of before. That's part of the reason why when I devised the jukeboxes for all the maps, I made sure that no music track existed on more than 2 maps and that most of the "starter" tracks were unique to 1 map. Now Siege leads to Face The Enemy and Trenches being on 3 maps and all of a sudden you don't notice them.

 

The cannon is annoying, you gotta capture it at all costs. If you leave it alone, the enemy takes it, and base to base shoots your ass good.

 

It's not base to base, but aside from that, it sounds like people just need to learn the map's gimmick like they did for Pipeline and other maps with side objectives. If you let the enemy grab all the oil on Pipeline you will undoubtedly get crushed by an early rush of expensive units. If you let the enemy grab the central icebergs on Hostile Waters then it becomes Hostile Skies. If you lose the dome on Seamist then YOU DIED. This map has the same deal. But those other maps also have chat messages that remind you about the side objectives. I guess Raap forgot about that this time around? I'll make sure to fix that for next patch.

[Raap]

FPS drops to 35 for me when looking at the center of the map or being in the castle area. We had like 13 guys I think, and 2 other guys said they had like 17 FPS while cruising around in the castle. The cannon is annoying, you gotta capture it at all costs. If you leave it alone, the enemy takes it, and base to base shoots your ass good.

 

Thank you for your input on this. If anyone else had a similar experience, please let me know.

 

Regarding map music, folks, do know that Red Alert and the various remixes are not unlimited in quantity. W3DHub does not have a sound artist contributing to any projects, and Chicajo hasn't made any new tracks since the early BHP days and long ago moved on to other projects. Occasionally we retrieve on odd sound track from the depths of some file archive which we can use in the game after some editing, Crush Remix APB Cut does not include voice remixes, and Hell March Orchestral APB Cut has an extended segment removed. I made those edits myself, but I am not a sound artist or composer.

 

For what it's worth, Frostburn Cove will feature a selection of tracks rarely or never used before, because until now no map could thematically accompany them.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Raap

[Testament]

I get like 15-20 FPS on this map while in combat. Otherwise, I like it.

[Raptor29aa]

Single player LAN it takes time 10 seconds before it is playable. Durning single player play it's fine. multiplayer works just fine. I haven't had any performance issues.

But seriously I haven't gotten to play it against anyone.

The cannons are awesome (most people don't know you can use there other cannnon to fire at the enemy cannon across the castle killing it quickly -lol)

[FRAYDO]

Regarding map music, folks, do know that Red Alert and the various remixes are not unlimited in quantity. W3DHub does not have a sound artist contributing to any projects, and Chicajo hasn't made any new tracks since the early BHP days and long ago moved on to other projects.

If I have enough money going into the new year and buy that thing I want, I might be in a position to become a contributor in music projects.

 

APB Delta is now starting to have a problem not seen since Renegade; We may have too many maps in rotation...

What if we were to visit the idea of changing the map rotation on a scheduled basis. Maybe like a bi-weekly change of maps?

[ChopBam]

What if we were to visit the idea of changing the map rotation on a scheduled basis. Maybe like a bi-weekly change of maps?

While an interesting idea, I don't think it would produce a result much different than what we have now. Certain maps won't be played during a scheduled game night. Mods can still !setnextmap to whatever the players desire.

[Raptor29aa]

!setnextmap is my favorite command (it's nice to have a choice) instead of every day at 1pm fissure, pipeline, and complex

[Raap]

I'll try to be around for a few rounds this weekend, unfortunately my time is not infinite and I would appreciate a !setnextmap or two. A few fixes for Siege are in the works, but visibility culling remains unlikely at this point, unless an experimental implementation is attempted (flooding the playable world with evenly sized visibility zones). Visual enhancements for Siege are off the table due to performance issues reported by players.

 

In other news, since this isn't new-thread worthy; Frostburn Cove is currently put on hold with no ETA, due to some W3DHub changes affecting my workflow, among other things. I hope to (but have not yet been able to) speak to Pushwall to clear a few things up, and to determine the best course of action when it comes to wrapping up my time here. This isn't really a reason for alarm, but I thought I'd make a public comment for communication transparency, since the last thing I want to do is cause a disappointment.

[Raap]

Apologies for the bump, but I'd like to ask for another round of feedback on the performance (FPS) on Siege, following the 3.0.7.4 update.

 

This update should have resolved a notable problem that may have impacted performance in live-play when both scaffold bridges were destroyed.

 

If performance remains on the rough side, nothing will change. If it has helped a lot, I might still do an art revision (I may also do an art revision for HW down the line).

[Pushwall]

Considering that the performance complaints were before I implemented the repair nerf you suggested (which is what broke the scaffold's performance-saver) I doubt much will change...

[Raap]

If you applied the fix as per patch notes correctly then it should in fact result in an FPS increase, that's the simple truth. The persisting draw calls and particles were an unnecessary and unintended burden, caused by the warhead displacement magic (don't do magic, kids).

 

Seeing as I am never able to catch a live round myself, feedback is critical.

[Pushwall]

I'm sure I did apply the fix correctly, but regardless, I fail to see how that would result in FPS being higher than it was before the bridge's draw call saver was broken.

 

Hell I just pulled out 3.0.7.3, the initial release, to make sure I'm not misremembering. The bridge smoke disappears in that version. And that's the version that was out when people were in this thread saying the map doesn't perform well.

[Raap]

I did a quick test just now in 3.0.7.4 (hotfix version), the bridge correctly model swaps. What causes some confusion here perhaps is that I never verified or specified (I think) in which version the bridge stopped functioning as intended. I just know that it worked in my own builds and then due to ini changes, it eventually stopped working, until now.

 

Which still means that 3.0.7.4 - the hotfix - fixed the problem and therefore an FPS increase has been gained compared to (an unspecified number of-) previous public releases, which lead to me asking for another feedback round. 

Edited January 16, 2017 by Raap