Games [GAME OVER] Tiberian Sun: Reborn Mafia I

[iLikeToSnipe]

Just now, ChopBam said:

The real unfortunate bit is figuring out whether Mojo is actually scum in order to take action on it. If he is and I end up voting for him/firing a shot, then that's good points for me which will help the team. But if he's not, then that's one town down and suspicious points for me. It's about 50/50 for me because Mojo is known to say and play erratically.

I know I don't speak for everyone, but I think it's a scum play to consider something a "good" action only as long as the result is pro-town. Let's say we ended up lynching Orange and he flipped town. I would not condemn anyone just for voting him. I'd have to find some indication that they voted him with ill intent or that they made their vote with the seeming foreknowledge that he was going to flip town.

The same goes for shooting somebody. If somebody were to shoot Mojo for a good reason (ex. he threatened to shoot you) and he flipped town I wouldn't consider the shooter suspicious. If somebody just up and shot Mojo for no good reason and he flipped town then I'd be suspicious of the shooter.

In my honest opinion, too much weight is put on the outcome of an action in our games. It's one thing I've been able to exploit in the past to cast suspicion on a town player as mafia. In general, only mafia know who everyone is (at least in the sense of mafia/not-mafia). But that doesn't mean that anyone who has a hand in killing a town player knew they were town and acted maliciously.

What I'm getting at is that we shouldn't necessarily be voting Mojo just to get a flip and use that flip to figure out if somebody is "suspicious". If we think he's scum, then let's lynch him. If we don't, then let's not. I think he's scum, I've given what I obviously believe to be good reasons for that, and others have contributed with their own reasons (good and bad). If anyone thinks that Mojo isn't scum or there's a player who is more likely scum (or even wants to argue for nolynch), then let's discuss that.

[OrangeP47]

4 minutes ago, ChopBam said:

I don't think it would be a good move for scum to bus at this point, however. As long as there are other targets, a better scum move would be to try to get someone else lynched and keep their own numbers up.

I mean, if someone's a lost cause, bussing is fine in that case, and generally only that case.  It depends on if he's seen as a lost cause.  If that's the case is debatable, but being debatable is the operative qualifier, not if it's true or not.  It's like mythbusters.  Something can be confirmed, plausible, or I forget what term they use, but disproven.  The mere fact that it's plausible is enough that it needs to factor into our calculations.

[ChopBam]

5 minutes ago, iLikeToSnipe said:

I know I don't speak for everyone, but I think it's a scum play to consider something a "good" action only as long as the result is pro-town.

I've been burned by my good intent with bad result too many times to take this seriously.

[OrangeP47]

6 minutes ago, iLikeToSnipe said:

I know I don't speak for everyone, but I think it's a scum play to consider something a "good" action only as long as the result is pro-town. Let's say we ended up lynching Orange and he flipped town. I would not condemn anyone just for voting him. I'd have to find some indication that they voted him with ill intent or that they made their vote with the seeming foreknowledge that he was going to flip town.

The same goes for shooting somebody. If somebody were to shoot Mojo for a good reason (ex. he threatened to shoot you) and he flipped town I wouldn't consider the shooter suspicious. If somebody just up and shot Mojo for no good reason and he flipped town then I'd be suspicious of the shooter.

In my honest opinion, too much weight is put on the outcome of an action in our games. It's one thing I've been able to exploit in the past to cast suspicion on a town player as mafia. In general, only mafia know who everyone is (at least in the sense of mafia/not-mafia). But that doesn't mean that anyone who has a hand in killing a town player knew they were town and acted maliciously.

What I'm getting at is that we shouldn't necessarily be voting Mojo just to get a flip and use that flip to figure out if somebody is "suspicious". If we think he's scum, then let's lynch him. If we don't, then let's not. I think he's scum, I've given what I obviously believe to be good reasons for that, and others have contributed with their own reasons (good and bad). If anyone thinks that Mojo isn't scum or there's a player who is more likely scum (or even wants to argue for nolynch), then let's discuss that.

I agree more or less with this.

[iLikeToSnipe]

Just now, ChopBam said:

I've been burned by my good intent with bad result too many times to take this seriously.

I can at least promise I'm not going to push a lynch on somebody just for voting/shooting a town member. Doesn't mean I won't analyze your posts and look for scum tells.

[ChopBam]

Just now, iLikeToSnipe said:

I can at least promise I'm not going to push a lynch on somebody just for voting/shooting a town member. Doesn't mean I won't analyze your posts and look for scum tells.

Was it a scum tell to consider the consequences of actions?

[OrangeP47]

1 minute ago, ChopBam said:

Was it a scum tell to consider the consequences of actions?

It certainly rubbed me kinda the wrong way.

[OrangeP47]

Just now, OrangeP47 said:

It certainly rubbed me kinda the wrong way.

Though it's probably within your meta unfortunately.

[iLikeToSnipe]

1 minute ago, ChopBam said:

Was it a scum tell to consider the consequences of actions?

Do you mean to be wary of a town witch hunt if you were to vote for a player you find scummy but they end up being town? I don't consider that suspicious, it's a reasonable concern. Whether I'm town or mafia, I never want to get lynched by a town witch hunt/bandwagon.

I have been town before where I voted for another town member for what I considered good reasons and then ended up getting shot or lynched the next day after their flip for what I considered mostly bad reasons. It does irk me when that happens to anyone. Especially when it's a cycle of lynching town members for jumping onto bandwagons.

[ChopBam]

3 minutes ago, iLikeToSnipe said:

Do you mean to be wary of a town witch hunt if you were to vote for a player you find scummy but they end up being town?

Not necessarily just a town witch hunt. Scum players will latch on to that "failing" and the town players may bandwagon along. Then my reasons for finding that person scummy are questioned and it becomes a big thing that I'd rather avoid.

[Shade939]

There are multiple reasons to lynch Mojoman to see his alignment.

1. He's claiming he doesn't want to usr his day kill since his ability will hit himself.

2. He immediately jumped on Louis for shooting me, largely based on what would be combined with an assumption that I am Town.

3. Multiple other players shot at him.

That's a reasonable thread of information that can be resolved to figure out other players alignments just by figuring out what alignment Mojoman has.

[Shade939]

15 minutes ago, OrangeP47 said:

I mean, if someone's a lost cause, bussing is fine in that case, and generally only that case.  It depends on if he's seen as a lost cause.  If that's the case is debatable, but being debatable is the operative qualifier, not if it's true or not.  It's like mythbusters.  Something can be confirmed, plausible, or I forget what term they use, but disproven.  The mere fact that it's plausible is enough that it needs to factor into our calculations.

Also it's myth busted. How is that the one result you forgot. 

[OrangeP47]

4 minutes ago, ChopBam said:

Not necessarily just a town witch hunt. Scum players will latch on to that "failing" and the town players may bandwagon along. Then my reasons for finding that person scummy are questioned and it becomes a big thing that I'd rather avoid.

As town it's much more about if your death helps your team than if you die at all.  As scum your death nearly always hurts your team.  That's why you should be like a Klingon.

[OrangeP47]

2 minutes ago, Shade939 said:

Also it's myth busted. How is that the one result you forgot. 

Because Mythbusters were on Wednesday nights and those nights my parents sent me to after school religion classes even though I'm an atheist 

[iLikeToSnipe]

2 minutes ago, ChopBam said:

Not necessarily just a town witch hunt. Scum players will latch on to that "failing" and the town players may bandwagon along. Then my reasons for finding that person scummy are questioned and it becomes a big thing that I'd rather avoid.

That is a valid concern, but I don't think it's good as town to live in fear of it. Gotta lynch those scummy players and if town is easily fooled enough to go along with a scum led bandwagon then I don't think we would win.

1 minute ago, Shade939 said:

There are multiple reasons to lynch Mojoman to see his alignment.

1. He's claiming he doesn't want to usr his day kill since his ability will hit himself.

2. He immediately jumped on Louis for shooting me, largely based on what would be combined with an assumption that I am Town.

3. Multiple other players shot at him.

That's a reasonable thread of information that can be resolved to figure out other players alignments just by figuring out what alignment Mojoman has.

While I can agree with some of this, I'd find anyone else who said all this scummy (but you are you). As I explained before, getting a flip can be useful to find the alignment of other players. But that's only going to be helpful if those players voted for scummy reasons. If somebody has voted for a scummy reason then shouldn't that be enough to find them suspicious?

Advocating for a lynch so that cases can be built on other players is a scum tell, in my opinion. If you can't build a case on a player because of their motives or actions and need the results of their actions, there isn't much of a case to begin with.

[OrangeP47]

2 minutes ago, iLikeToSnipe said:

That is a valid concern, but I don't think it's good as town to live in fear of it. Gotta lynch those scummy players and if town is easily fooled enough to go along with a scum led bandwagon then I don't think we would win.

While I can agree with some of this, I'd find anyone else who said all this scummy (but you are you). As I explained before, getting a flip can be useful to find the alignment of other players. But that's only going to be helpful if those players voted for scummy reasons. If somebody has voted for a scummy reason then shouldn't that be enough to find them suspicious?

Advocating for a lynch so that cases can be built on other players is a scum tell, in my opinion. If you can't build a case on a player because of their motives or actions and need the results of their actions, there isn't much of a case to begin with.

The case on Mojo should, and can, stand on it's own indeed.

Retal and ILTS top town reads, though if Retal doesn't pop out of the sand soon I'm gonna forget he exists.

[iLikeToSnipe]

1 minute ago, OrangeP47 said:

The case on Mojo should, and can, stand on it's own indeed.

What are your thoughts on Shade? He's the hardest one for me to read as town. Whether it's my own playstyle, thought process, or something else I have a scum read on him the majority of the time. If you, Cat5, Jeod, or any other veteran would say "we need to lynch X so that we can build a case against Y" I would see that as a huge scum tell.

Shade saying that both reads as a scum tell to me and as "Shade being Shade".

[Anon_Kat]

Damn this thread is a library to read trough! 

[ChopBam]

7 minutes ago, OrangeP47 said:

That's why you should be like a Klingon.

This reference is lost on me but I otherwise understand what you mean.

8 minutes ago, OrangeP47 said:

As scum your death nearly always hurts your team.

As town your death may hurt your team more if you have a good role. But how does one disclose that information to town without becoming a nightkill target?

[Shade939]

2 minutes ago, ChopBam said:

This reference is lost on me but I otherwise understand what you mean.

As town your death may hurt your team more if you have a good role. But how does one disclose that information to town without becoming a nightkill target?

That's a WIFOM.

[Anon_Kat]

Also voting for none! Like a always do! Which probably got me killed. 

[Shade939]

Anyone can pretend to be a GDI power unit, only way they could actually prove it is by using their abilities instead.

[Shade939]

And anyone who outs themselves as claiming one of those power units, would find themselves targeted by Nod, preventing them from using their ability effectively to start with.

[OrangeP47]

7 minutes ago, iLikeToSnipe said:

What are your thoughts on Shade? He's the hardest one for me to read as town. Whether it's my own playstyle, thought process, or something else I have a scum read on him the majority of the time. If you, Cat5, Jeod, or any other veteran would say "we need to lynch X so that we can build a case against Y" I would see that as a huge scum tell.

Shade saying that both reads as a scum tell to me and as "Shade being Shade".

I'm about to go make lunch, so afk from the thread, but I'll piece together my thoughts and post about them when I get back.  They're too long for how short of time I have atm.

[Category 5 Hurricane]

12 minutes ago, iLikeToSnipe said:

What are your thoughts on Shade? He's the hardest one for me to read as town. Whether it's my own playstyle, thought process, or something else I have a scum read on him the majority of the time. If you, Cat5, Jeod, or any other veteran would say "we need to lynch X so that we can build a case against Y" I would see that as a huge scum tell.

Shade saying that both reads as a scum tell to me and as "Shade being Shade".

If the vote today were to turn out close, it might be worthwhile keeping the result of the lynch in mind, especially if Mojoman were to turn up Mafia. The lynch result can be used as part of a case on others especially when early hammer is in effect. However, it's strongly situational, and can mislead as often as not. It generally should not be the leading part of a case. That said, what else would anyone case on during Day 1?

[Category 5 Hurricane]

Shade, you've starting to lean a bit too hard on math. You can't mathematically solve this game.

[Category 5 Hurricane]

Anyone can claim any hit/jam numbers. With the exception of the Spy, any role can get any result. You can't definitively learn anything, other than eliminating people as being a Spy.

[Shade939]

Just now, Category 5 Hurricane said:

Anyone can claim any hit/jam numbers. With the exception of the Spy, any role can get any result. You can't definitively learn anything, other than eliminating people as being a Spy.

Or if they killed someone. Most players day kills will result in a miss. So the two outlying cases is when their weapon gets stuck or when they kill someone.

[iLikeToSnipe]

Just now, Category 5 Hurricane said:

If the vote today were to turn out close, it might be worthwhile keeping the result of the lynch in mind, especially if Mojoman were to turn up Mafia. The lynch result can be used as part of a case on others especially when early hammer is in effect. However, it's strongly situational, and can mislead as often as not. It generally should not be the leading part of a case. That said, what else would anyone case on during Day 1?

You do bring up a good point I haven't really thought about. I don't think that an alignment flip can shed a lot of light, if any, on the alignment of anyone who had a hand in killing said person. But it certainly could for somebody who was hesitant to commit. If somebody had expressed soft support for a lynch an alignment flip could add to a case against them depending on why they didn't commit. It's also been forever since we had a game with early hammer and I participated in it.

I do think that D1 should either be a nolynch or a lynch against somebody who is more than just slightly suspicious.

[Category 5 Hurricane]

No. Any role other than a Spy can kill someone.