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devilslayersbane

Red Alert lore discussion.

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Many of you may be familiar with this post at the BHP forums. It somewhat boiled down to a discussion on the rather incomplete political and economic climate that would have enabled Red Alert to take place (I mean, sure, we know the basics: Hitler dies before coming to power thanks to Einstein, the arms race happens considerably sooner, war breaks out between the Allies and Soviets). But really, that doesn't explain all of it. It leaves out important notes on the political climate of China and the Orient, Africa, South America, and other such factors. It fails to explain how Poland is a Communist country by the beginning of the GWWII.

 

I happen to be a bit of a history nut. I don't like discrepancies like this, so I did my best to answer some of the questions raised in the linked thread. Here's what Cat5 asked and what I wrote (respectively):

The only concern, really, is what Japan, China and America would have responded with, but since Westwood pretends those countries don't exist...Actually, it's a good question. What happens to those three in a Hitler-less history? China and Japan are at war before WWII even begins without help from Germany, so that would have happened anyway. What would have been the result of that war? Would China have emerged with victory by the warlords, the communists, or would Japan have succeeded given that they did not attack the Allies as in the historical WWII? Westwood's worldbuilding was good enough to be believable when I had a Middle School education, but now it's just absurd. Why do Poland, Finland, and Romania start as Communist? Why doesn't the Asian and African theatre matter? I feel like they built their alternate-WWII world using a 1991 diplomatic map limited to Europe while somehow trying to have an atmosphere of 1950s, and it gets worse as the series goes on. RA2: How does Italy lose Libya as a colony if WWII doesn't happen? How does Britain lose Iraq? How does Korea fight for the Allies in RA2 if Japan doesn't lose the war against China and operates as a separate faction in RA3?

Here's my answer:

This is how I've come to interpret it:

 

China and Japan would have been in a war that probably would have been somewhat equivalent to what we saw pre-WWII in our own timeline. Meanwhile the rest of the world's major economies would have been pretty downtrodden due to the Great Depression and the fact that many countries would have still been recovering from WWI. The U.S. would have probably remained ultimately neutral in terms of this second Sino-Japanese war, but would have supported China during this time with equipment and supplies as much as they could, because Imperial Japan would have been a threat to the U.S.'s and other allies holdings in the Pacific. The outcome of this war would have determined the practicality of the Soviet Union's potential aggression in the theater as it would cost a lot of money to move troops across the Urals and Siberia. Considering this, it's most likely that this war did eventually come out in China's favor, with China successfully pushing out the Japanese and forming a peace with Japan. Stalin, at this point would consider it a good point to move troops to the Eastern Coast of Russia in order to begin some expansion there. China probably would have backed away from the USSR and communism, due to the massive support of the U.S. during the Second Sino-Japanese war and the fact that the Chinese Warlords would probably have gotten more direct support. That point out there, the Warlords would have re-established the Chinese government back to the Republic of China (or the existing goverment of the Republic of China would have gained much more power than it had pre-war). Thus, Soviet influence in the Pacific would dwindle unless Stalin decided to go military. It's possible that Japan may have formed an alliance with the USSR during the GWWII in the Pacific in order to try and expand again, though this is never mentioned and wouldn't really have an effect on the outcome of the Pacific theater as Japan wouldn't have much to offer post-war. Going back to the European theater, you have shambling Eastern European countries that are suffering from the Great Depression. The USSR, due to decreased trade to these countries thanks to the reduction in global trade, offers jobs and security to these nations that are unable to recover from WWI economically. One by one, they are assimilated as "sovereign" states that answer to the Soviet Banner. Technically, they are allowed to keep their borders and governments, but they are very much ruled by communism, mirroring our timeline's Warsaw Pact Nations.

 

Edit: Keep in mind, this explanation is limited only to the start of RA1. Other issues addressed for RA2 and RA3 are not present.

Also keep in mind that my explanation is just one of many plausible possibilities based on what I know of history and the political climate that surrounded the times.

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Hitler dies before coming to power thanks to Einstein

 

You're welcome :v

 

Really though, nice idea bringing this over here. I might not participate in the discussion, but I too like history a great deal and certain things in the "lore" of C&C had bothered me a bit as well. I enjoyed reading the discussion and I hope it continues.

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In my head canon, the Pacific Front of WWII still happened (just called the Pacific War in this timeline) and ended the same way until RA3 removed the nuke and later transformed the remnants of the Japanese Empire into the Empire of the Rising Sun.

Edited by neko soldier

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In my personal opinion, it went very similarly to our WWII, but since the US didn't have to dedicate very much to Europe (aside from supplies and a small support force), they had much more reserves to throw at the Japanese, ending the war sooner. Also, presumably the US didn't invent the A-Bomb in this timeline, which means that they had to use a less destructive form of winning the war. My guess would be a complete blockade of Japan. I'm probably wrong, though, so keep the discussion going, of course.

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a less destructive form of winning the war.

 

a complete blockade of Japan.

Pick one.

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a less destructive form of winning the war.

 

a complete blockade of Japan.

Pick one.

 

 

Last I checked, blockades (shore shellings not necessary) are far less destructive than A-bombs.

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I'm sorry I didn't see your response before. That is an incredibly well thought out response, and I consider it very viable.

I only posted it a few days ago.

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a less destructive form of winning the war.

 

a complete blockade of Japan.

Pick one.

 

 

Last I checked, blockades (shore shellings not necessary) are far less destructive than A-bombs.

 

If a blockade were in place, that certainly could mean destructive battles with the Imperial Japanese Navy. Less destructive than an A-bomb I would grant that, but war and its causalities will come forward in short time. Japan in this situation would not idle by with Allied warships looming nearby, and perhaps with a blockade against them in place they may gain sympathy with nearby countries invariably leading to a new theater of war for the Allied forces.

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Would you rather be nuked or starved out?

 

Not sure which one is the worse choice, but at least the nuke got it over quicker :p

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In my personal opinion, it went very similarly to our WWII, but since the US didn't have to dedicate very much to Europe (aside from supplies and a small support force), they had much more reserves to throw at the Japanese, ending the war sooner. Also, presumably the US didn't invent the A-Bomb in this timeline, which means that they had to use a less destructive form of winning the war. My guess would be a complete blockade of Japan. I'm probably wrong, though, so keep the discussion going, of course.

Again, I disagree. With the fact that U.S. involvement in the pacific theater of WWII was directly related to the attacks on Pearl Harbor. However, before this time, we were weary of Japan and knew that if China did not win the war, then Japan would have very little stopping it from taking over other American and Western European holdings in the Pacific. In essence, we supported China. However, the U.S. was already in combat with Italy and with Germany in Northern Africa at this time in our WWII. Even still, Japan's upper echelon military knew that they would not win a war with the U.S. However, the threat of U.S. intervention in the RA timeline would have been much, much greater. The U.S. would not have been fighting a war on two (or three, really) fronts, and it while Japan's Generals would have wanted those holdings, they would also had to have recognized the fact that the U.S. would have an unfettered response. The Attack on Pearl Harbor was supposed to be a preventative measure by the Japanese in order to discourage war with the U.S. by crippling our fleet. A move like this in the RA timeline, without the guarantee that the U.S. is already fighting somewhere else would have been absolute suicide. Pearl Harbor was very calculated, but they missed a few variables in our timeline. In RA timeline, it would not have mattered whether or not they missed a few variables, they would have been defeated one way or another. Japan's Generals weren't stupid, they most likely would not have instigated a war with any Western power in the RA timeline.

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How do you explain the Arizona memorial and the Iwo Jima statue in Red Alert 2, then? I know that it would've essentially been suicidal to attack Pearl Harbor, but evidence shows that it did happen. The question is why, and how did it end?

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How do you explain the Arizona memorial and the Iwo Jima statue in Red Alert 2, then? I know that it would've essentially been suicidal to attack Pearl Harbor, but evidence shows that it did happen. The question is why, and how did it end?

 

Other issues addressed for RA2 and RA3 are not present

Also

 

It's possible that Japan may have formed an alliance with the USSR during the GWWII in the Pacific in order to try and expand again

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Well, in RA1 we have:

 

Allies

England

France

Germany

Spain

Turkey

Greece

 

Soviets

Ukraine

Russia

 

Unless I'm mistaken about the alignments, the reason Ukraine and Russia are the only two countries is because Westwood wanted to simplify the factions. According to the wiki on the Soviet Union (http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Soviet_Union), many of the countries in question, including China, are affiliated with the Soviet Union. It seems like missing events such as Pearl Harbor and Iwo Jima happened offscreen...which interestingly ties into an amazing mod and plot someone could make for RA1.

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Red Alert Lore = LOTS OF WEABOO MECHS.... LOTS AND LOTS OF THEM. (especially Weaboo shit)... Right FRAYDO?

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And psionic school girls, MPRA2. Can't forget psionic school girls.

 

art-risunok-red-alert-3.jpg

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!ban everyone derailing

 

EDIT: except Jeod, his comment was relevant even if it was a 7-month necro....

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!ban everyone derailing

 

EDIT: except Jeod, his comment was relevant even if it was a 7-month necro....

 

This thread is too good to go seven months without further discussion. It's super interesting.

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Well, in RA1 we have:

 

Allies

England

France

Germany

Spain

Turkey

Greece

 

Soviets

Ukraine

Russia

 

Unless I'm mistaken about the alignments, the reason Ukraine and Russia are the only two countries is because Westwood wanted to simplify the factions. According to the wiki on the Soviet Union (http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Soviet_Union), many of the countries in question, including China, are affiliated with the Soviet Union. It seems like missing events such as Pearl Harbor and Iwo Jima happened offscreen...which interestingly ties into an amazing mod and plot someone could make for RA1.

 

This may be true for RA2, However, the Chinese Communist revolution didn't end until 1949. Though, it could be argued that it would have ended much sooner than 1949. And considering the fact than an American-Japanese war did in fact happen (screw you RA2 for not allowing divergence to happen too much), it's likely that US intervention in China would have continued to stabilize the region. Also, considering the fact that the U.S. was involved in China in order to gain and maintain a large, powerful ally in the east, they probably wouldn't have let China go as easily. Especially considering the U.S.'s much more limited involvement in the GWWII.

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Well, in RA1 we have:

 

Allies

England

France

Germany

Spain

Turkey

Greece

 

Soviets

Ukraine

Russia

 

Unless I'm mistaken about the alignments, the reason Ukraine and Russia are the only two countries is because Westwood wanted to simplify the factions. According to the wiki on the Soviet Union (http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Soviet_Union), many of the countries in question, including China, are affiliated with the Soviet Union. It seems like missing events such as Pearl Harbor and Iwo Jima happened offscreen...which interestingly ties into an amazing mod and plot someone could make for RA1.

 

This may be true for RA2, However, the Chinese Communist revolution didn't end until 1949. Though, it could be argued that it would have ended much sooner than 1949. And considering the fact than an American-Japanese war did in fact happen (screw you RA2 for not allowing divergence to happen too much), it's likely that US intervention in China would have continued to stabilize the region. Also, considering the fact that the U.S. was involved in China in order to gain and maintain a large, powerful ally in the east, they probably wouldn't have let China go as easily. Especially considering the U.S.'s much more limited involvement in the GWWII.

 

Actually, if I recall correctly, during one of the later cutscenes, Stalin says somethinga about ''finally retaking the land from the Europeans and the Chinese'', indicating that China is, in fact, not communist by the time of Red Alert. The presence of the Allied expansion campaign that took place in Siberia is a further hint that China may not have been communist at the time.

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I demand an FPS C&C game with a storyline like Battlefield 1.

either in the Tiberium Timeline, or the Red Alert Timeline.

1. Red Alert: a 3 or 4 chapter campaign where you play as; Allied tank platoon, Allied ground soldiers. 2. Soviet sub crew, Soviet MiG flight sortie. 3. Civilian during the Greece conflicts. (kinda like how Battlefield 1's campaign works)

2. Tiberium: 1. GDI Mammoth Battalion, GDI Orca Pilot, GDI infantry/special forces. 2. Nod Stealth Tank commander, Banshee pilot during the Mammoth MK II Assault, Nod spy. 3. Mutant Militia/Hijackers

I really do think that something like that would work.

It would definitely go into the lore of C&C a bit more, and would bring new light to the C&C series.

Edited by MPRA2

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Well, in RA1 we have:

 

Allies

England

France

Germany

Spain

Turkey

Greece

 

Soviets

Ukraine

Russia

 

Unless I'm mistaken about the alignments, the reason Ukraine and Russia are the only two countries is because Westwood wanted to simplify the factions. According to the wiki on the Soviet Union (http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Soviet_Union), many of the countries in question, including China, are affiliated with the Soviet Union. It seems like missing events such as Pearl Harbor and Iwo Jima happened offscreen...which interestingly ties into an amazing mod and plot someone could make for RA1.

 

This may be true for RA2, However, the Chinese Communist revolution didn't end until 1949. Though, it could be argued that it would have ended much sooner than 1949. And considering the fact than an American-Japanese war did in fact happen (screw you RA2 for not allowing divergence to happen too much), it's likely that US intervention in China would have continued to stabilize the region. Also, considering the fact that the U.S. was involved in China in order to gain and maintain a large, powerful ally in the east, they probably wouldn't have let China go as easily. Especially considering the U.S.'s much more limited involvement in the GWWII.

 

Actually, if I recall correctly, during one of the later cutscenes, Stalin says somethinga about ''finally retaking the land from the Europeans and the Chinese'', indicating that China is, in fact, not communist by the time of Red Alert. The presence of the Allied expansion campaign that took place in Siberia is a further hint that China may not have been communist at the time.

 

 

IIRC, Gradenko conquered East Asia before the start of the Soviet campaign, which is all about taking over Europe.

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Well, in RA1 we have:

 

Allies

England

France

Germany

Spain

Turkey

Greece

 

Soviets

Ukraine

Russia

 

Unless I'm mistaken about the alignments, the reason Ukraine and Russia are the only two countries is because Westwood wanted to simplify the factions. According to the wiki on the Soviet Union (http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Soviet_Union), many of the countries in question, including China, are affiliated with the Soviet Union. It seems like missing events such as Pearl Harbor and Iwo Jima happened offscreen...which interestingly ties into an amazing mod and plot someone could make for RA1.

 

This may be true for RA2, However, the Chinese Communist revolution didn't end until 1949. Though, it could be argued that it would have ended much sooner than 1949. And considering the fact than an American-Japanese war did in fact happen (screw you RA2 for not allowing divergence to happen too much), it's likely that US intervention in China would have continued to stabilize the region. Also, considering the fact that the U.S. was involved in China in order to gain and maintain a large, powerful ally in the east, they probably wouldn't have let China go as easily. Especially considering the U.S.'s much more limited involvement in the GWWII.

 

Actually, if I recall correctly, during one of the later cutscenes, Stalin says somethinga about ''finally retaking the land from the Europeans and the Chinese'', indicating that China is, in fact, not communist by the time of Red Alert. The presence of the Allied expansion campaign that took place in Siberia is a further hint that China may not have been communist at the time.

 

 

IIRC, Gradenko conquered East Asia before the start of the Soviet campaign, which is all about taking over Europe.

 

dont forget Supreme Kommando FRAYDO launched a huge invasion on Tokyo in 1952

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Einstein, could you take care of the derailing responses from MPRA2 and FRAYDO? Thx.

 

As far as your last response Jeod, that definitely was mentioned pretty early on in the the soviet RA1 campaign, but there may have been less official involvement from the USSR, like we saw in our timeline with Vietnam. Remember that pre-WWII, China was already on the brink of civil war with the Communists and the Nationalists at each other's throats. Japan's invasion postponed that, so what may have happened, considering the events is that a strategic deal may have been struck where the U.S. would keep it's S.E. Asian holdings in turn for working with the USSR to eliminate the threat that Japan had on them and the USSR's holdings. This would become an uneasy partnership because it would mean the US agreeing to letting specific countries (Laos, cambodia, vietnam, China maybe, NK) annex into the Eastern block as it existed into the RA-pre GWWII universe. Essentially, the US-USSR agreement would look like this:

 

1. The US, USSR, and China would all work together to repel the Japanese invasion of mainland asia.

2. The US would limit involvement into SE Asian politics postwar.

3. The USSR would not directly intervene during communist revolutions and only accept new members when they came willingly into the fold (Post-Sino-Japanese war China, AKA, Gradenko's biggest achievement).

4. The US would be allowed to keep it's holdings in the Pacific and SE Asia.

5. The US and USSR would not go into a direct conflict with each other for an established period of time.

 

This war, due to the lack of nuclear weapons, would not have forced a Japanese surrender and would have likely ended up with a mainland invasion of Japan with the U.S. leading the charge (the Chinese would be too invested in rebuilding to send too many troops and the USSR would have wanted to prevent US involvement when they invaded Europe). This would explain the Arizona and Iwo Jima monuments existence later on in the RA timeline and would give more of a reason as to why the US wouldn't have intervened when the USSR invaded Western Europe. After the fall of the USSR during RA1, the US would break this truce after setting up Romanov as the Premier.

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To really understand the USSR's actions during the RA1 timeline we have to go back to the aftermath of WWI. The Russian Empire went through a civil war in 1917 that caused Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia to gain a brief independence. Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan were also established as independent states until proclaimed as Soviet Republics in 1922 and eventually absorbed into the Soviet Union.

 

RA1 timeline stuff:

 

In the 1940s, Stalin took back the Baltic States, some parts of Finland, and the east end of Poland. Due to the fall of the Nazi Party, some eastern parts of Germany are given to Poland--though I'm not a history buff so I can't say exactly why.

 

In the 1950s, Stalin invades China and Europe, starting the events of RA1 (after Grandenko conquers Asia).

 

Now, as for the US-Japanese war. Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor had not much to do with Germany's actions. In September 1940, the U.S. placed an embargo on Japan by prohibiting exports of steel, scrap iron, and aviation fuel to Japan because of Japan's takeover of north French Indochina. Soon after Japan's occupation of southern Indochina, the U.S., the Netherlands, and Britain froze Japan's assets, preventing Japan from buying oil.

 

Japan saw two options: get the oil embargo lifted on terms that would still allow them to take the territory they wanted (Southeast Asia--for more oil), or prepare for war. General Tojo Hideki set November 29 as the final day on which Japan would accept a settlement without war. In order for their war plans to work, Hideki decided that Japan would need to cripple the U.S. Pacific Fleet, hence Pearl Harbor.

 

In looking at these history, we have to answer some questions:

 

1) Since the Soviet Union had taken over East Asia, would they have allowed Japan to have the oil they wanted?

a) Perhaps, in exchange for their pledge to the Soviet Union. Though if the USSR had allowed Japan to get around the West's trade bans, how would the West have reacted?

 

2) Why did some of Germany go to Poland?

 

3) If Japan was allowed to take Southeast Asia for oil, why did they still attack Pearl Harbor?

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@DSB good to have you back around man! :D

 

I don't think fraydo or mpra2 need to be warned or anything, they both know how to behave when asked nicely ;)

 

I like the discussion though, more pls!

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Wait, could any of you link me the cutscene where it is said that Gradenko conquered east Asia?  (I'm lazy.)

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