Patch APB 3.0.4.0 Changelog

[Pushwall]

Another patch has been released! Get more information and the changelist in the full update!

Red Alert: A Path Beyond Update

There were some problems with the initial patch delivery; if you attempted to install before this post and failed, try again.

Hey everyone! Another patch has just been pushed to the launcher and server based on your feedback!

Changelist

GENERAL

• Thieves, Flamethrowers and Minelayers have been moved down from Tech Level 3 to 2.
• Tech Level 1 now has the same units available that Tech Level 2 previously did. This is to provide more flexibility for future maps; previously TL1 was basically wasted space as it only had the units that are available without a barracks.

INFANTRY

• Added Clearing Charges for Engineers. These are small timed explosives used for destroying mines; they do nothing to hard targets and don't do much to infantry, but they are actually better at mine clearing than regular C4 due to their 25% higher damage radius and 3-second timer. They also deal moderate damage to hedgehogs and bridge segments (10 destroy a bridge segment, 2 destroy a hedgehog). Engineers carry 3 of these at a time and can restock with a supply truck just like with C4.
• Raised throwing velocity of C4 from 10m/s to 15m/s.
• Grenadier and Frag Grenade have been overhauled:
  • ROF decreased from 1 / 1.67 secs to 1 / 2 secs.
  • Gravity effect down from 1.5 to 1.
  • Targeting range up from 100 to 125; this is very accurate to the distance it can cover before it explodes.
  • Splash radius up from 8 to 10.
  • Splash damage is now unaffected by distance just like Shock Rifle splash (i.e. as long as something is within the splash radius, it will always take maximum damage, there is no falloff).
  • Uses Timed C4 logic (3 second timer), so it is not prone to the problems that normally affect sticky projectiles and can stick on vehicles and infantry too. (C4 logic prevents the weapon from having a secondary fire, so don't expect to see one. This is also why it's not going on Volknades.)
  • Can be disarmed by repair tools. (Protip: throw them into unreachable positions. This is much easier to do when outdoors.)
  • Damage type is now separate from the Destroyer/Missile Sub type (required since C4 weapons cannot have direct damage). The main changes are that the grenade's damage to buildings is up somewhat (DPS is now comparable to Volktillery) and damage to naval units is way up (DPS is now comparable to Redeye/Strela except it also hurts submerged).
  • Long story short, the grenade is now more reliable at splashing infantry in the field, and is essentially a weaker on-foot Artillery against buildings, but in close quarters you run a greater risk of hurting yourself, and give enemies a chance to get out of the way due to the timer.
  • Grenadier health down from 60 to 50.
  • Grenadier price up from 160 to 500.
  • Grenadier credit yield up from 32 to 100.
  • Grenadier kill points up from 37.5 to 50.
  • Grenadier no longer explodes on death.
  • Grenadier now has a limited-ammo Makarov for close-range backup.

VEHICLES

• Gunboat cannon damage down from 50 to 45.
• Gunboat cannon velocity down from 300m/s to 150m/s.
• Depth Charge damage down from 120 to 90.
• Depth Charge actually hurts ground vehicles now (assuming they're daft enough to take a dive).
• Destroyer/Missile Sub damage to heavy vehicle armour up by 33% (0.75 -> 1).
• Destroyer/Missile Sub damage to super-heavy vehicle armour up by 100% (0.5 -> 1).
• 
  Destroyer/Missile Sub splash radius up from 12.5 to 15.
• Gunboats and Destroyers now behave like wheeled vehicles with rear-wheel steering. This allows them to turn much faster and their top speed is higher, but they cannot turn without accelerating anymore.
• Mammoth Tank regen up from 3 to 5.
• Mammoth Tank missile velocity up from 100m/s to 200m/s.
• Mammoth Tank missile splash radius up from 10 to 12.
• Mammoth Tank missiles arc up 60 degrees like the Missile Sub ones, making them easier to use against infantry on hills and nearby aircraft.
• Longbow missile velocity up from 100m/s to 200m/s.
• Longbow damage to Heavy vehicles up by 12.5% (0.8 -> 0.9, same as Mammoth vehicles)
• Hind damage to main structures down by 20% (0.125 -> 0.1)
• Adjusted light/med/heavy/mammoth vertical turret traverse restrictions to affect their ability to target aircraft (Light is better, others worse)

BUILDINGS

• Missile Silo's damage warnings are correct now.
• Missile Silo no longer provides (unusable) flares after its destruction.
• Removed Tesla Coil's anti-infantry splash damage of 6.25 (effectively 37.5 in a full burst) so it is able to hurt and kill less infantry in one burst. (Taking a full blast is still almost certain death even for Tanya.)

AESTHETICS

• MCT glass now properly gives off glass effects at <25% health.
• Mended a bunch of infantrys' broken forearms (Soviet Rifle, Grenadier, both Snipers).
• RPG Trooper is now based on Grenadier's model.
• All infantry have had their first-person hand/sleeve textures updated to reflect their actual models (except Allied rifles, Soviet engineers and Volkov who were already accurate)

MAP CHANGES

• RA_AS_Seamist: Removed pillbox directly in front of the Radar Dome.
• RA_CamosCanyon: Fixed floaty trees.
• RA_CoastalInfluence: Moved Allied refinery back 5m to render it a little less vulnerable to V2s.
• RA_CoastalInfluence: Propped bridge-side defenses up on platforms/rocks to make them more capable of hitting units on the bridge.
• RA_CoastalInfluence: Arty/V2 Spam Peninsula has now been turned into an island; both teams have to cross a bridge to get on it.
• RA_CoastalInfluence: Tesla Coil downgraded to 2 Flame Towers.
• RA_CoastalInfluence: Added destructible hedgehogs to the Arty Spam Island, which will have to be destroyed for vehicles to advance.
• RA_CoastalInfluence: Added a cliff line on the south side of the lagoon to make it harder to spot enemies approaching on the long land route.
• RA_CoastalInfluence: Fog thickened from 300/450 to 200/300.
• RA_Complex: Removed concrete walls shielding ore fields.
• RA_Complex: Shrunk ore fields so trucks have to travel a little further.
• RA_Fissure: Tech Level down from 5 to 2.
• RA_GuardDuty: Tech Level down from 2 to 1 (no change since TL1 is now the same as what 2 was before).
• RA_PacificThreat: Removed one ore silo per team, and upgraded the existing one to a double-income one. So the economy is more vulnerable to destruction but less vulnerable to thieves.
• RA_StormyValley: Fixed vehicles being able to climb the central hills.
• RA_Wasteland: Fixed Barracks targeting.
• RA_Wasteland: Fixed a bunch of multimaterials, should improve performance

---

Get to the launcher and grab the patch! Be on the lookout for more updates, and we hope to see you on the battlefield!

[Alstar]

And so this might be the end of my insane V2 snipes on Coastal Influence

But its for better, isnt it?

Nice patch anyway, grabbing it asap.

[TK-421]

*Sees change to Grenadiers price* 500 hundred why not 180-250

[Einstein]

*Sees change to Grenadiers price* 500 hundred why not 180-250

 

Because he finally has a defined role now, outside of being a slightly more fun alternative to the rifle soldier.

 

Also, I spy with my little eye......A River Raid!

[FRAYDO]

A River what now? Einstein, surely you're seeing things.

[Einstein]

Be on the lookout for more updates, and we hope to see you on the battlefield!

 

IDK man, could be

[FRAYDO]

.

[Raap]

Heh, I remember touching up some version of River Raid ages ago and adding a playable area near the ocean, but that version never got finished. It's interesting how Pushwall consistently has the same ideas that I had for certain maps.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Raap

[des1206]

 

• • Long story short, the grenade is now more reliable at splashing infantry in the field, and is essentially a weaker on-foot Artillery against buildings, but in close quarters you run a greater risk of hurting yourself, and give enemies a chance to get out of the way due to the timer.

 

So for $500 I get a unit that does less damage vs. buildings and vehicles than the $300 RPG trooper, no anti-air capability, but better versus infantry and slightly longer range.with no LOS needed.

Edited March 25, 2016 by des1206

[Alstar]

 

Be on the lookout for more updates, and we hope to see you on the battlefield!

 

IDK man, could be

 

 

Dear.

God.

YES.

[TK-421]

 

 

• • Long story short, the grenade is now more reliable at splashing infantry in the field, and is essentially a weaker on-foot Artillery against buildings, but in close quarters you run a greater risk of hurting yourself, and give enemies a chance to get out of the way due to the timer.

 

So for $500 I get a unit that does less damage vs. buildings and vehicles than the $300 RPG trooper, no anti-air capability, but better versus infantry and slightly longer range.with no LOS needed.

 

Doesn't make sense does it?

[Killing_You]

Heh, I remember touching up some version of River Raid ages ago and adding a playable area near the ocean, but that version never got finished. It's interesting how Pushwall consistently has the same ideas that I had for certain maps.

You might want to check your place for hidden cameras, in that case. Pushwall's a bit of a wild card.

[Einstein]

Wait a minute.....

 

So we're focusing on this:

 

 

 

• • Long story short, the grenade is now more reliable at splashing infantry in the field, and is essentially a weaker on-foot Artillery against buildings, but in close quarters you run a greater risk of hurting yourself, and give enemies a chance to get out of the way due to the timer.

So for $500 I get a unit that does less damage vs. buildings and vehicles than the $300 RPG trooper, no anti-air capability, but better versus infantry and slightly longer range.with no LOS needed.

 

And just ignoring the rest?

 

• Grenadier and Frag Grenade have been overhauled:
  • ROF decreased from 1 / 1.67 secs to 1 / 2 secs.
  • Gravity effect down from 1.5 to 1.
  • Targeting range up from 100 to 125; this is very accurate to the distance it can cover before it explodes.
  • Splash radius up from 8 to 10.
  • Splash damage is now unaffected by distance just like Shock Rifle splash (i.e. as long as something is within the splash radius, it will always take maximum damage, there is no falloff).
  • Uses Timed C4 logic (3 second timer), so it is not prone to the problems that normally affect sticky projectiles and can stick on vehicles and infantry too. (C4 logic prevents the weapon from having a secondary fire, so don't expect to see one. This is also why it's not going on Volknades.)
  • Can be disarmed by repair tools. (Protip: throw them into unreachable positions. This is much easier to do when outdoors.)
  • Damage type is now separate from the Destroyer/Missile Sub type (required since C4 weapons cannot have direct damage). The main changes are that the grenade's damage to buildings is up somewhat (DPS is now comparable to Volktillery) and damage to naval units is way up (DPS is now comparable to Redeye/Strela except it also hurts submerged).
  • Long story short, the grenade is now more reliable at splashing infantry in the field, and is essentially a weaker on-foot Artillery against buildings, but in close quarters you run a greater risk of hurting yourself, and give enemies a chance to get out of the way due to the timer.
  • Grenadier health down from 60 to 50.
  • Grenadier price up from 160 to 500.
  • Grenadier credit yield up from 32 to 100.
  • Grenadier kill points up from 37.5 to 50.
  • Grenadier no longer explodes on death.
  • Grenadier now has a limited-ammo Makarov for close-range backup.

 

There is nothing preventing your grenades from sticking to aircraft. So lets add this all up...

 

He got a "jumping" buff (the gravity effect), a range buff, a splash radius buff, damage falloff removed, sticky logic added, a damage buff against buildings and naval, a HUGE increase in credit yield, and also got a shiny new pistol, and above all else, the poor guy finally got a defined role on the battlefield....yet he sucks more than before? I'm not following...

 

He isn't supposed to be a RPG trooper. That guy also has a role, but it differs from the 'nader.

[des1206]

I think it's the price tag we are unsure of. Also obligatory grenadier vs. longbow gif.

 

Edited March 25, 2016 by des1206

[Pushwall]

The price is also something I'm unsure of, but bear in mind that at this point he is practically Volkov with a pistol instead of the Kovshotty (which is even better than the Kovshotty at around its max range, but is undisputably worse point blank), no AT cannon primary, and standard infantry health/resistances. He's not bad. I could probably knock it down to 400 or so but the primary reason I shot it up so much is because he's not exactly balanced for being buyable right at the start of a match anymore, or being super-spammable on Fissure.

 

I also think Einstein is misunderstanding some of those points. The "gravity effect" is for the grenades, not the grenadier (so you don't need to look up so much when throwing), and the credit yield is how much you get for killing him (which, as with every other combat infantry, is 20% of his purchase cost, while non-combat infantry give up 10%).

[VERTi60]

500 for a squishy infantry unit is too much imho. Generally I don't like any change done to the unit, the pistol is overkill since the grenade is suppose to be anti infantry already. If anything for such a price increase he could get some anti veh capabilities.

[Pushwall]

500 for a squishy infantry unit is too much imho.

 

So why haven't you made an outcry against engineers, snipers, thieves or spies yet?

 

the pistol is overkill since the grenade is suppose to be anti infantry already.

 

But the grenade is also practically unusable at point blank because of the timed explosion and "if you're in the explosion radius at all, you take max damage" effect which means it can lick you and hurt a lot. This was intended to separate him from the flamethrower and make him not a god inside buildings. A pistol is not enough to make him a god.

 

If anything for such a price increase he could get some anti veh capabilities.

 

Because Soviets don't have enough anti veh infantry already?

He does kill vehicles about as fast as a flamethrower does...

[VERTi60]

So why haven't you made an outcry against engineers, snipers, thieves or spies yet?

Why should I? Their price was basically unchanged and they are also very specialized units.

You've increased the price of the grenadier by more than 300% though which is quite noticeable.

 

 

But the grenade is also practically unusable at point blank because of the timed explosion and "if you're in the explosion radius at all, you take max damage" effect which means it can lick you and hurt a lot. This was intended to separate him from the flamethrower and make him not a god inside buildings. A pistol is not enough to make him a god.

Why not add anti-inf grenade instead which would have small blast radius on impact (e.g. you would have to hit the infantry or very close) and leave time grenades with higher blast radius as a secondary option?

We used to have similar setup before for the grenadier and it worked?

Pistol is something which will completely change the meta game for grenadier and I personally don't particularly like it (renegade approach of things to give every infantry a side arm, making pistol fests decide the victor)

 

 

Because Soviets don't have enough anti veh infantry already?

Yes they have, but the only viable ones are the high end infantry (not available on all maps), which are also bad vs infantry.

Grenadier was suppose to be a jack of all trades - good anti inf, semi anti veh and semi good against buildings. Now you'll turn him into something which will not be good against anything (unless you're pistol pro), I mean for his price. You would be better off with any other low tech infantry. What would be the point of time grenade only when most of the time you would use grenadier in close situations anyway? It's not like he's now super effective on open ground with the pistol...

[Pushwall]

Why not add anti-inf grenade instead which would have small blast radius on impact (e.g. you would have to hit the infantry or very close) and leave time grenades with higher blast radius as a secondary option?

• Because giving him a close-quarters grenade brings him back to square one where he is basically the same thing as the flamethrower?
• The Reborn approach of "hurr let's make this weapon's secondary fire arbitrarily good against different units than the primary fire is, surely people will just KNOW that when there's no indication of it" is bad.
• C4 weapons can't have secondary fires anyway. That's just how the engine works.
• The much more reasonable alternative to 2 is splitting it onto a different weapon. Got a different model of a Russian grenade that actually fits?

We used to have similar setup before for the grenadier and it worked?

 

If by "it worked" you mean "nobody ever used him outside of fissure" then sure. You could also say the Beta-era setup for the Medic "worked" because that suffered the exact same problem. But that changed and you don't seem to have a problem with it?

 

Yes they have, but the only viable ones are the high end infantry (not available on all maps), which are also bad vs infantry.

 

RPG Troopers are high end and not available on all maps? Shock Troopers and Volkovs are bad vs infantry? Sure whatever. (Okay I suppose the shocky isn't GREAT but he's definitely there given his hitscan and lack of chargeup, so he's worlds better at it than the RPG.)

 

Now you'll turn him into something which will not be good against anything (unless you're pistol pro), I mean for his price. You would be better off with any other low tech infantry. What would be the point of time grenade only when most of the time you would use grenadier in close situations anyway? It's not like he's now super effective on open ground with the pistol...

 

With anti-building damage comparable to Kovtillery (instead of the negligible amount it's been for about a decade) and only a little less range, I can't possibly imagine what he could be used for Especially since Volkov is not available on all maps either!

[VERTi60]

• Because giving him a close-quarters grenade brings him back to square one where he is basically the same thing as the flamethrower?
• The Reborn approach of "hurr let's make this weapon's secondary fire arbitrarily good against different units than the primary fire is, surely people will just KNOW that when there's no indication of it" is bad.
• C4 weapons can't have secondary fires anyway. That's just how the engine works.
• The much more reasonable alternative to 2 is splitting it onto a different weapon. Got a different model of a Russian grenade that actually fits?

1. Have you ever thought that grenadier is best for close quarters while it is the flamethrower which is better suited for long range (by making the flamethrower a bit more long range)? I just tried the timed grenades. They're ridiculous, it feels like you're hurt even if does explode like 10 meters away from you. It's no use whatsoever now, and since they are timed it's impossible to use them as ranged attack.

2. No comment as Reborm vs APB arguments are old and don't address issues. They are for kids who like to throw mud at each other

3. Well then. Since grenades are just bad when they are timed. It doesn't work well in fast paced shooter. Works good for C4s but not for throwing grenades which are suppose to be the main attack weapon. If we can't have both versions then, we only need the first no-timed version.

4. Nobody cares about the model of the grenade if it simply doesn't work. You need to sort out the weapon first, then worry about the models Even if we have two same models or just one or a placeholder, it doesn't matter. It's not about the model but about the weapon itself.

 

 

If by "it worked" you mean "nobody ever used him outside of fissure" then sure. You could also say the Beta-era setup for the Medic "worked" because that suffered the exact same problem. But that changed and you don't seem to have a problem with it?

Have you tested the grenadier now? I think any of the previous versions worked a lot better. The blast radius is too large, you'll damage yourself rather quickly and the enemy will finish you sooner before the last grenade explodes. You're denying grenadiers to use grenades in most inf vs inf situations (aka close combat as that's what most infantry do - not just buildings). You can't use the grenadier as a long range because non of the infantry will stand in one place either and wait for the grenade to explode. You won't be able to hit any vehicle now at all. So why using the grenades if anything else works better?

Basically he's useless in almost every situation other than random kov-tillery fire.

 

RPG Troopers are high end and not available on all maps? Shock Troopers and Volkovs are bad vs infantry? Sure whatever. (Okay I suppose the shocky isn't GREAT but he's definitely there given his hitscan and lack of chargeup, so he's worlds better at it than the RPG.)

RPG is actually more useful now than grenadiers. But what if I want to use something which is either good against infantry and low armor vehicles, and does some damage to buildings too? RPG is anti armor/AA for the most part - but not particularly good against fast vehicles with anti infantry riding them...

 

 

With anti-building damage comparable to Kovtillery (instead of the negligible amount it's been for about a decade) and only a little less range, I can't possibly imagine what he could be used for Especially since Volkov is not available on all maps either!

Kovs, shockers, even RPG are way better at hitting and damaging buildings than the (now overpriced) grenadier (except the cheaper RPG can at least defend against armor and air). I don't know a sane person who would use grenadiers now. They are simply more usable for close combat scenarios. Giving them a pistol, higher price tag, nerfing their HP and fighting capabilities will not make them any more usable.

[Chaos_Knight]

 

Got a different model of a Russian grenade that actually fits

If you have to ask for a model of a damn GRENADE of all things with a completely straight face... you might want to take a long hard look at your development team. Just saying.

[TeamWolf]

Before we continue this as a back and forth argument, I'd like to say that I am in favor of the new changes.

 

They are tricky to use at first, but that's mainly down to how we are all used to the nader playing. Instead of having an instant exploding grenade, this is a bit more of a modern take on it. After playing around with it for a good 30 mins, understanding it's arch and reach, you get a much better feel for how to use it.

 

You've more got to lead your throws now and you can also setup small traps for people or chasers to walk into. The Grenade splash is way better now as well and can do some serious hurt to any infantry. Also, people seem to be talking about these guys as some CQC melee combat unit... Which the Grenadier has never really been, if anything he's better at his ranged roles with better accurate and infantry damage.

 

He's also not intended to be some rambo lone unit, teamwork is still required and you're only going to as last long as good you are.

 

 

 

Got a different model of a Russian grenade that actually fits

If you have to ask for a model of a damn GRENADE of all things with a completely straight face... you might want to take a long hard look at your development team. Just saying.

 

 

Uncalled for and not even sure why you are saying this tbh.

[Chaos_Knight]

 

 

Got a different model of a Russian grenade that actually fits

If you have to ask for a model of a damn GRENADE of all things with a completely straight face... you might want to take a long hard look at your development team. Just saying.

 

 

Uncalled for and not even sure why you are saying this tbh.

Call me all you want, Waffle, but when lack of a model for a small prop for a 10+ years old engine mostly obscured by a hand anyway is considered a valid obstacle in a way of implementing a feature... then idk.

[Einstein]

I also think Einstein is misunderstanding some of those points. The "gravity effect" is for the grenades, not the grenadier (so you don't need to look up so much when throwing), and the credit yield is how much you get for killing him (which, as with every other combat infantry, is 20% of his purchase cost, while non-combat infantry give up 10%).

You mean to tell me that I've always misunderstood what those meant?? Everyone get a good laugh in, go ahead

 

• Because giving him a close-quarters grenade brings him back to square one where he is basically the same thing as the flamethrower?
• The Reborn approach of "hurr let's make this weapon's secondary fire arbitrarily good against different units than the primary fire is, surely people will just KNOW that when there's no indication of it" is bad.
• C4 weapons can't have secondary fires anyway. That's just how the engine works.
• The much more reasonable alternative to 2 is splitting it onto a different weapon. Got a different model of a Russian grenade that actually fits?

2. No comment as Reborm vs APB arguments are old and don't address issues. They are for kids who like to throw mud at each other

I think we all know that throwing mud on another game was not the intent here. This almost looks like a red herring. The point he was trying to make is that he is not going to use a secondary fire such as was suggested, for: reason given. Also not possible with C4 logic because W3D, so possibly just use an alternate weapon.

 

Got a different model of a Russian grenade that actually fits

If you have to ask for a model of a damn GRENADE of all things with a completely straight face... you might want to take a long hard look at your development team. Just saying.

 

Uncalled for and not even sure why you are saying this tbh.

Call me all you want, Waffle, but when lack of a model for a small prop for a 10+ years old engine mostly obscured by a hand anyway is considered a valid obstacle in a way of implementing a feature... then idk.

 

Where did he use the lack of a model as an obstacle/excuse? That was a 100% serious question. He gave an alternative that is actually possible within the bounds of the engine. He then asked if there was another model that could be used. I think he actually wanted to know if we had another model easily accessible, vs having to find or make one. When you are a one-man development team, its acceptable to ask for help sometimes.

 

I have never understood why patch notes/changelog threads turn toxic more quickly than any other type of post. Lets bring the pH down in here a bit shall we?

[Pushwall]

Before we continue this as a back and forth argument, I'd like to say that I am in favor of the new changes.

 

Huh, I guess TeamWolf is insane then.

 

500 may not be the ~perfect~ price tag. But the thing is, we cannot accurately put a price on it without knowing how good it is. And how do we do that without seeing it in action? 160 is too little now that he's actually competent at a role, and people seem to have this aversion to him having a price that stands out due to not being a multiple of 50, and anything less than the flamethrower means he's still really spammable on Fissure, so I had to give him some price increase and matching him with the Sniper and Medic seemed a good place to start. But if he's proving to be too inefficient then he may go down to 300-400 or so.

 

Strangely nobody ever seems to complain about the spy costing 500 despite him being worth much less than the grenadier's previous 160 price tag except in very specific maps...

 

I think we all know that throwing mud on another game was not the intent here. This almost looks like a red herring. The point he was trying to make is that he is not going to use a secondary fire such as was suggested, for: reason given. Also not possible with C4 logic because W3D, so possibly just use an alternate weapon.

 

Yes, that was not the intent. It just happens to be the one W3D mod I know that really loves the "this secondary fire is arbitrarily anti-something that the primary is not, but since it looks and sounds identical to the primary and fires at the same rate you'll never be sure what it even is without extensive testing or delving into the objects.ddb" thing, so that mod an example of the problems it causes. The fact that it just happens to be Reborn does not matter... or rather, it wasn't supposed to but apparently it now does.

If people absolutely want a close-quarters splash unit, hey guess what? That already exists. It's called the flamethrower. You've all been using it for years because it did everything that the grenadier did better, except on Fissure where the grenadier was able to be deployed faster. Stop feigning ignorance.

[VERTi60]

 

Before we continue this as a back and forth argument, I'd like to say that I am in favor of the new changes.

Huh, I guess TeamWolf is insane then.

 

He is, that's not new

 

500 may not be the ~perfect~ price tag. But the thing is, we cannot accurately put a price on it knowing how good it is. And how do we do that without seeing it in action? 160 is too little now that he's actually competent at a role, and people seem to have this aversion to him having a price that stands out due to not being a multiple of 50, and anything less than the flamethrower means he's still really spammable on Fissure, so I had to give him some price increase and matching him with the Sniper and Medic seemed a good place to start. But if he's proving to be too inefficient then he may go down to 300-400 or so.

 

Strangely nobody ever seems to complain about the spy costing 500 despite him being worth much less than the grenadier's previous 160 price tag except in very specific maps...

 

The price tag is too high compared to other low level infantry which are much better for almost every occasion compared to new grenadiers. It shouldn't cost more than the flamethrower then if your argument was to have an alternative.

 

Also once again you're using false comparison with a completely different unit which has a specialized role capable of doing multiple things, listening to enemy chat being the least. No soviet player will care how much the spy cost, as they're doing a decision between the low level fighting infantry when considering the price. Hence you have to compare it to the other similar units. Seeing a 5oo$ grenadier would give a false impression that he's actually more useful than starshina, kapitan, rpg, or even flamethrower. Which is false if you consider that he was actually nerfed in his role, not buffed.

 

 

I think we all know that throwing mud on another game was not the intent here. This almost looks like a red herring. The point he was trying to make is that he is not going to use a secondary fire such as was suggested, for: reason given. Also not possible with C4 logic because W3D, so possibly just use an alternate weapon.

Yes, that was not the intent. It just happens to be the one W3D mod I know that really loves the "this secondary fire is arbitrarily anti-something that the primary is not, but since it looks and sounds identical to the primary and fires at the same rate you'll never be sure what it even is without extensive testing or delving into the objects.ddb" thing. The fact that it just happens to Reborn does not matter... or rather, it wasn't supposed to but apparently it now does.

 

"The Reborn approach of "hurr let's make this weapon's secondary fire arbitrarily good against different units than the primary fire is, surely people will just KNOW that when there's no indication of it" is bad."

 

I don't know but that statement sounds pretty sarcastic and hostile at first, like most of your replies The fact that you require two other staff members for the excuse just hardens the point. I don't really care about how it sounded though just explaining where the so called toxicity comes from

 

Also if you want to brag about reborn's weapons or comparing them, look how good the disc thrower works. It's simple, doesn't have ridiculous range or timer, and it didn't require much changes. It's good for close and far combat, works well against infantry if you learn how to throw, even vehicles and buildings. He's actually worth his price tag.

Compared to your version of grenadier, where all you managed to provide so far (artillery against buildings), it's laughable.

[Pushwall]

Also if you want to brag about reborn's weapons or comparing them,

 

2. No comment as Reborm vs APB arguments are old and don't address issues. They are for kids who like to throw mud at each other

[VERTi60]

Before we continue this as a back and forth argument, I'd like to say that I am in favor of the new changes.

 

They are tricky to use at first, but that's mainly down to how we are all used to the nader playing. Instead of having an instant exploding grenade, this is a bit more of a modern take on it. After playing around with it for a good 30 mins, understanding it's arch and reach, you get a much better feel for how to use it.

 

You've more got to lead your throws now and you can also setup small traps for people or chasers to walk into. The Grenade splash is way better now as well and can do some serious hurt to any infantry. Also, people seem to be talking about these guys as some CQC melee combat unit... Which the Grenadier has never really been, if anything he's better at his ranged roles with better accurate and infantry damage.

 

He's also not intended to be some rambo lone unit, teamwork is still required and you're only going to as last long as good you are.

Theoretically it could be like that, but once again not very common in practice. In AOW maps most of the players jump to vehicles anyway and you are a rambo the moment your vehicle dies. If you can't defend yourself in close range then you can't do much tbh. Infantry rushes are usually different - either high end units, where as the early rushes with low level units consist of units which are good inside buildings, e.g. close quarters (and grenadiers are not anymore),

I really don't see the long range grenadier who could make "traps" anyway more useful with this new approach.

 

Also if you want to brag about reborn's weapons or comparing them,

 

2. No comment as Reborm vs APB arguments are old and don't address issues. They are for kids who like to throw mud at each other

 

 

Well you pushed it further. Now you have it

[Pushwall]

I was pointing out how secondary fires that you can't tell are different from the primary are a bad idea. This is regardless of what game does it. Reborn just conveniently happens to be a W3D mod that does it so I can use it as a comparison. You are now the one bragging about actual unit role differences specifically between the two games.

[VERTi60]

 

I was pointing out how secondary fires that you can't tell are different from the primary are a bad idea. This is regardless of what game does it. Reborn just conveniently happens to be a W3D mod that does it so I can use it as a comparison. You are now the one bragging about actual unit role differences between the two games.

 

 

Well you're the one comparing the grenadier to spy, engineer, or whatsoever. Let's compare it to it's actual counterpart then