Blog 23- Content Overload

[Kai]

Right now GDI relies heavily on vehicles, most of the battles are won by vehicles. From infantry stand point GDI really lacks a good anti armor unit except Stalker ofc. Disk throwers never really worked against armor even in the RTS, they were mere grenadier units and used most in first campaign missions. I think they should, along with rocket soldiers considered to be low tier armor fighters and still available when Bar/HoN dies. While RS is still doing better job apparently fighting vehicles, then again disks are now better against infantry since the RS nerf.

 

So what options do we have to boost the GDI's lack for armor fighters? Either we remove the Nod Confessor and nerf the Cyborg's cannon so both sides will have to rely on low tier armor fighters, or simply introduce new unit. I think the later is better as the first option is a step back and doesn't add anything better to the game.

 

Disc Throwers have been equalised with the Rocket Soldier, although I agree the nerf was a bit excessive, ditto for the Rocket Soldier as well, damage is fine but the splash is a little small.

 

Both factions should be equalised in that they both have the same (or near) options, it's not really fair for GDI to be shafted since Nod recieved a new unit. (Which does fit) The only right removal was that AA Trooper... I mean, what was that?

 

By the way, the MRV can indeed no longer repair Cyborg Reapers, will this be fixed in the next version?

[Bfranx]

 

Well in the case of my game both teams have the Rocket Soldier, so anti-vehicle infantry is taken care of.

 

I can see where you're coming from, but couldn't you just increase the speed of the disk? It's not like any of the infantry have a tracking projectile, so it's obvious that speed is a key factor in being able to hit a moving target.

So can you still buy Rocket Soldiers when the BAR/HON is destroyed? With your roster, the answer to that question could be a problem by itself.

 

I never said anything about the BAR/HON. We were talking about vehicle production buildings before.

 

If I remember correctly...you have 7 Nod guys

 

Flamer- Anti inf.

Chem.Sprayer- Anti inf.

Tech- Non combat

Engie- Non combat

Commndo- Anti inf.

Mini gunner- Anti inf. (default)

Rocket Soldier.- Anti veh.

 

Two spray and prays (that they don't get ran over) Two Non combat units, four Anti. inf, one anti. Veh

 

Well I don't know what you mean by "that they don't get ran over," but other than that you've got the roster right.

 

6 GDI Guys

 

Grenadier- Anti inf..

Tech- Non combat

Engie- Non combat

Commndo- Anti inf.

Mini gunner- Anti inf. (default)

 

Rocket Soldier.- Anti. veh.

 

Again, Two spray and prays units, Two Non combat units, three Anti. inf, one anti. Veh

 

I can understand Nod having two "spray and pray" units as they literally have two spraying weapons on their team. Not sure what you're talking about on the GDI roster, though. Also, the Grenadier is both anti-infantry and anti-vehicle (though to a lesser extent than the Rocket Soldier, obviously).

Not to be rude but...your running some big risk here.

 

Oh?

 

Mirrored teams- Fans like both teams to feel different and sides to feel unique

 

Both teams have unique vehicles within their roster.

Both teams have unique infantry within their roster.

Both teams have unique buildings.

Both teams have a unique superweapon.

Both teams have different color schemes and strategies.

 

They seem pretty separated to me.

 

Boredom- See above

 

If you're talking about the game as a whole being boring because there isn't a more diverse infantry roster, then I'm a little concerned about how you gauge fun. If you're talking about gameplay being boring after a team's vehicle production building has been destroyed, then I have to agree with you, but also mention that none of the C&C games were meant to stand on their infantry alone.

 

Diversifying the infantry roster is pointless if one of the one teams can produce vehicles and the other can't. Tweaking the infantry to delay the inevitable is just keeping players away from the full experience of the game (and no one wants that).

 

BAR/HON Becoming not important at all - Rocket Soldiers are the only real anti veh. if they stay after the BAR/HON is lost then whats the point of defending it.

 

Exactly, which is why they won't stay after it's destroyed.

 

BAR/HON Becoming too important - And if they don't stay after the building is taken down then the kill whoring will began with no real way to defend.

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't that one of the things that administrators/moderators are supposed to prevent?

 

No room to expand- What if you wanted to add building related tech? With only 6/7 guys that doesn't leave much room to expand.

 

There are already certain units that require certain buildings in order to be produced. The original game has done this for us.

 

Balance- With no mid range units, the ability to counter units becomes very slim. What good are flamers and Chem. Sprayers if you can't get close enough to use them?

 

Minigunners can operate as mid-range units, and it's not going to be as hard to use the Flamethrower/Chem. Warrior effectively as you might think.

 

We at TSR believe in healthy balance between Low,Mid, and High range units. Where each unit has a unique feel and purpose on the battlefield, and where we can expand past the RTS game that we are based off without becoming unrealistic to TS/FS universe.

 

And I completely sympathize with that notion, but I fear you may be putting too much emphasis on allowing infantry to stand on their own. The infantry in the original game were meant to act alongside vehicles, not in the absence of them. It's your game, so you can do whatever you want, but I just feel that it's a better idea to use the units you already have and work on how they cooperate with the other components of their team.

 

Sorry to get so off subject.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Bfranx

[Wallywood]

 

Right now GDI relies heavily on vehicles, most of the battles are won by vehicles. From infantry stand point GDI really lacks a good anti armor unit except Stalker ofc. Disk throwers never really worked against armor even in the RTS, they were mere grenadier units and used most in first campaign missions. I think they should, along with rocket soldiers considered to be low tier armor fighters and still available when Bar/HoN dies. While RS is still doing better job apparently fighting vehicles, then again disks are now better against infantry since the RS nerf.

 

So what options do we have to boost the GDI's lack for armor fighters? Either we remove the Nod Confessor and nerf the Cyborg's cannon so both sides will have to rely on low tier armor fighters, or simply introduce new unit. I think the later is better as the first option is a step back and doesn't add anything better to the game.

 

Disc Throwers have been equalised with the Rocket Soldier, although I agree the nerf was a bit excessive, ditto for the Rocket Soldier as well, damage is fine but the splash is a little small.

 

Both factions should be equalised in that they both have the same (or near) options, it's not really fair for GDI to be shafted since Nod recieved a new unit. (Which does fit) The only right removal was that AA Trooper... I mean, what was that?

 

By the way, the MRV can indeed no longer repair Cyborg Reapers, will this be fixed in the next version?

 

The AA trooper was a quick fix to GDI not really having an AA unit. It didn't really work out so we had to cut him, which alot of people seems to agree with. Also yes the MRV not fixing CR should be fixed

[Einstein]

FORG! Also nice updates! I really look forward to these being ingame!

[Wallywood]

Also Welcome back Forg

[Eternity 6]

Update looks awesome , looking forward to getting back into the game .

[OWA]

Well in the case of my game both teams have the Rocket Soldier, so anti-vehicle infantry is taken care of.

 

I can see where you're coming from, but couldn't you just increase the speed of the disk? It's not like any of the infantry have a tracking projectile, so it's obvious that speed is a key factor in being able to hit a moving target.

The issue here is that GDI don't have a high tier anti-vehicle infantry apart from Ghostalker.

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't that one of the things that administrators/moderators are supposed to prevent?

If kill-whoring can be achieved, then your game is badly designed.

 

We at TSR believe in healthy balance between Low,Mid, and High range units. Where each unit has a unique feel and purpose on the battlefield, and where we can expand past the RTS game that we are based off without becoming unrealistic to TS/FS universe.

 

And I completely sympathize with that notion, but I fear you may be putting too much emphasis on allowing infantry to stand on their own. The infantry in the original game were meant to act alongside vehicles, not in the absence of them. It's your game, so you can do whatever you want, but I just feel that it's a better idea to use the units you already have and work on how they cooperate with the other components of their team.

The Enforcer infantry isn't that unrealistic to TS/FS if you think about it. Between the X-O Powersuit from that one Tiberian Dawn cutscene and the Zone Troopers from C&C3, there's got to have been a missing link, the Enforcer is that missing link. Also bear in mind that Reborn actually takes place towards the end of and post Firestorm.

 

You can't design an FPS to be exactly like an RTS. Doing so would be incredibly short-sighted because the two genres of game simply don't play the same way. Emphasis has to be put on the infantry a bit more because if they worked exactly like their RTS counterparts, they would be incredibly frustrating to play as. Also, infantry need to be able to stand on their own a bit, because if the War Factory gets taken out it would just become killwhore central. To reiterate what I said before, moderators shouldn't have to enforce rules that are based on bad game design.

[forg0ten1]

Also Welcome back Forg

Thank you sir, it is good to be back

[Bfranx]

The issue here is that GDI don't have a high tier anti-vehicle infantry apart from Ghostalker.

Well I was replying to when they said that the Disk Thrower was bad at anti-vehicle in general.

 

If kill-whoring can be achieved, then your game is badly designed.

If kill-whoring occurs, it is the players who are at fault for taking advantage of a situation within the game. The game is not at fault for allowing the situation to occur, because in normal gameplay the match should end rather quickly after the point at which kill-whoring can occur is reached.

 

The Enforcer infantry isn't that unrealistic to TS/FS if you think about it. Between the X-O Powersuit from that one Tiberian Dawn cutscene and the Zone Troopers from C&C3, there's got to have been a missing link, the Enforcer is that missing link. Also bear in mind that Reborn actually takes place towards the end of and post Firestorm.

 

You can't design an FPS to be exactly like an RTS. Doing so would be incredibly short-sighted because the two genres of game simply don't play the same way. Emphasis has to be put on the infantry a bit more because if they worked exactly like their RTS counterparts, they would be incredibly frustrating to play as. Also, infantry need to be able to stand on their own a bit, because if the War Factory gets taken out it would just become killwhore central. To reiterate what I said before, moderators shouldn't have to enforce rules that are based on bad game design.

The X-O Powersuit was not a Tiberian Dawn unit, it was a teaser within Tiberian Dawn for the game that would eventually become Tiberian Sun. C&C 3 was not created by Westwood, so you can't relate the two units as though they were planned together.

 

Yes, there should be more emphasis placed on infantry in an FPS than in an RTS, and there are several useful things that infantry can do within the game, but putting too much emphasis on infantry will lead to matches that last too long and prohibit players from participating in the full experience. Communities shouldn't have to modify their games to compensate for the few players who take advantage of a situation for either laughs or a higher score. They should moderate their games so that players who do kill-whore are unable to play the game at all. Actions have consequences, and they need to be made aware of that fact.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Bfranx

[DeviousDave]

To be honest here i like the idea of the Enforcer as a bridge between the TD X-O power suit and TW Zone trooper (even though technically the Wolverine mk1 was the bridge) and it gives GDI that mid to late game anti armor infantry based firepower it really needed to keep up with NOD.

 

Let's face it, if NOD loses their WF but still has the HON and REF, they can keep fighting and hold GDI off effectively for a while (and on some maps even turn the battle around) whereas at the moment when GDI loses it's WF its pretty much 'GG... /votenextmap' as NOD rolls over them or pounds them into dust with arty as the disc thrower just can't hold the line as well as NODs rocket trooper or Confessor who have an easier time aiming at distant targets and stopping rushes.

 

that's just my 2 cents anyway.

[Bfranx]

To be honest here i like the idea of the Enforcer as a bridge between the TD X-O power suit and TW Zone trooper (even though technically the Wolverine mk1 was the bridge) and it gives GDI that mid to late game anti armor infantry based firepower it really needed to keep up with Nod.

 

Let's face it, if Nod loses their War Factory but still has the HON and Refinery, they can keep fighting and hold GDI off effectively for a while (and on some maps even turn the battle around) whereas at the moment when GDI loses it's War Factory its pretty much 'GG... /votenextmap' as Nod rolls over them or pounds them into dust with arty as the disc thrower just can't hold the line as well as Nods rocket trooper or Confessor who have an easier time aiming at distant targets and stopping rushes.

 

that's just my 2 cents anyway.

I'm curious to see how the addition of the Juggernaut will change things, if at all.

[Killing_You]

...In any case, I really think that some rebalancing is needed soon enough. GDI has been doing pretty well without these units, and with them gearing up to arrive this could spell doom for Nod if done incorrectly.

[Bfranx]

...In any case, I really think that some rebalancing is needed soon enough. GDI has been doing pretty well without these units, and with them gearing up to arrive this could spell doom for Nod if done incorrectly.

 

I agree, adding new units should always be a carefully crafted process.

[VERTi60]

The only unit which Nod lacks atm is some late tier heavy duty vehicle to stop the GDI heavy rushes though Nod has STs and DTs which could be utilized to be more efficient fighting infantry (DTs) and heavy armor (STs) instead of being base rapers.

Then again let's wait after the armor type update and see how things will be holding then, I'm particularly interested to see if deployed tick tanks can hold up more and how the Juggernauts will spice things on the battlefield.

[Enduar]

For the record, the idea of power armor in Tiberian Sun/Firestorm is so normalized it's hardly worth the debate. Nod has fully cybernetic soldiers thanks to their advanced tech and even though GDI tends to lag behind on man-machine interfacing like that, the advent of the Wolverine is their (rather large) response to that threat-

However... The Wolverine is so large it's counted as a vehicle, and it's reasonable to assume the pilot rides inside the torso rather than having externally worn servos that articulate the pilot's own movements. The Disc Thrower, however, has a mechanically assisted throwing arm, and it's reasonable to assume many other units could and would benefit from similar tech. If GDI's second most common unit had a partial powered exoskeleton, I'd put money on seeing a near-commando variant that had something much more shiny. The Ghost Stalker always felt, lore-wise, like a convenient and powerful recruit- but only that, and not exactly representative of what a GDI Commando of the era would really be like. Even more so considering the unreliable nature of ongoing mutant/Forgotten diplomacy.

[Wallywood]

The only unit which Nod lacks atm is some late tier heavy duty vehicle to stop the GDI heavy rushes though Nod has STs and DTs which could be utilized to be more efficient fighting infantry (DTs) and heavy armor (STs) instead of being base rapers.

Then again let's wait after the armor type update and see how things will be holding then, I'm particularly interested to see if deployed tick tanks can hold up more and how the Juggernauts will spice things on the battlefield.

With the new GDI units coming, we do have plans to beef up Nod a bit. DTs and STs should be getting an armor resistance buff and with a few MSA tweaks we should be able to allow dig zones in the GDI's base. One thing I have been looking into is how to balance it so Nod will not just be able to hold their line but will be able to push back.

[DeviousDave]

So... now all the 'discussion' is out of the way, roughly any idea how long it will be until the new patch is out?

 

I don't mean exact dates or even rough dates but rather is it around about the next week stage or a few weeks/month(s), sometime 2015, possibly 2016 or around about the time Half Life 3 comes out.

[Wallywood]

So... now all the 'discussion' is out of the way, roughly any idea how long it will be until the new patch is out?

 

I don't mean exact dates or even rough dates but rather is it around about the next week stage or a few weeks/month(s), sometime 2015, possibly 2016 or around about the time Half Life 3 comes out.

I've been working alot on it recently and hope to have it out within this month or next.

[Timeaua]

One thing I have been looking into is how to balance it so Nod will not just be able to hold their line but will be able to push back.

 

How about give the mobile stealth generator the ability to cloak itsself and other units while moving, like the gap generator in APB. But the cloaking range is much decreased, while not deployed.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Timeaua

[Wallywood]

 

One thing I have been looking into is how to balance it so Nod will not just be able to hold their line but will be able to push back.

 

How about give the mobile stealth generator the ability to cloak itsself and other units while moving, like the gap generator in APB. But the cloaking range is much decreased, while not deployed.

 

That has been talked about BUT that is just one idea. We have a few things in discussion at this time. We will be keeping the public updated along the way.

[OWA]

 

...In any case, I really think that some rebalancing is needed soon enough. GDI has been doing pretty well without these units, and with them gearing up to arrive this could spell doom for Nod if done incorrectly.

I agree, adding new units should always be a carefully crafted process.

 

We've been thinking about this one seriously for a few months now. The actual concept behind what role the unit would perform was thought up well over a year ago.

[delta]

Some minor suggestions...

 

- Increase component tower hitbox back to what it used to be? I feel like it's really annoying having to aim for that tiny little turret at the top, whereas many versions ago you could shoot at the base of the tower to damage it.

- Add a few purchase terminals to the Nod War Factory's second floor.

- Maybe give veteran and elite infantry the ability to slowly self-heal up to half their max hp?

- Let veteran engineer slowly self-heal vehicles that he's driving. I remember there was something mentioned about elite engineers being able to do this, but it didn't seem to work on the one occaision I managed to get one fully promoted. Also, elite engineer seems pretty rare to come by, so I'm thinking it should get this at the second rather than third rank.

[Wallywood]

Some minor suggestions...

 

- Increase component tower hitbox back to what it used to be? I feel like it's really annoying having to aim for that tiny little turret at the top, whereas many versions ago you could shoot at the base of the tower to damage it.

We are nerfing all the Base defense abit but this may be something we could try if this doesn't fix it in the next patch

 

- Add a few purchase terminals to the Nod War Factory's second floor.

We do have plans on upgrading a few buildings, I think this one is on the list.

 

- Maybe give veteran and elite infantry the ability to slowly self-heal up to half their max hp?

Certain units could see something like this in the future. But we would have to be very careful about which units get this.BUT the medic will be getting an AOE Healing beacon when Elite to help out in crowded battles and allow him to join the fight.

 

- Let veteran engineer slowly self-heal vehicles that he's driving. I remember there was something mentioned about elite engineers being able to do this, but it didn't seem to work on the one occaision I managed to get one fully promoted. Also, elite engineer seems pretty rare to come by, so I'm thinking it should get this at the second rather than third rank.

Healing buildings is the best way to get Vet. points with Engies and Tech. And I think you do heal Vehicles while inside already at Elite status. Plus his wrist repair tool will get the ability to repair both vehicles and buildings. Since we are getting rid of the the ability to repair vehicles at standard level.

The balance is going to be getting a complete overhaul once the Armor.ini is completed, and since that is going to take alot of work, we are only doing minor balance fixes. Thanks for the good feed back

[delta]

Oh, got a few more.

 

- For the Nod purchase menu, move Tick Tank, Stealth Tank, and MRV up so that they're in the first four slots and quicker to buy. DT, Sub APC and Attack Bike are less used so they can move down. For GDI, probably move Disruptor up and AAPC down.

- Give MRV an AOE mine-clearing attack as secondary...mentioned this in-game, so just a reminder =P

- Maybe give EMP mines a limited duration, like say 15 minutes?

- (Maybe) give all players a steady stream of 2 credits per second independent of Refinery and Silos so you can still scrape together some money for an Officer or something else if those buildings are destroyed. I think this was how it was in vanilla Renegade.

[Bayonetta]

 

Right now GDI relies heavily on vehicles, most of the battles are won by vehicles. From infantry stand point GDI really lacks a good anti armor unit except Stalker ofc. Disk throwers never really worked against armor even in the RTS, they were mere grenadier units and used most in first campaign missions. I think they should, along with rocket soldiers considered to be low tier armor fighters and still available when Bar/HoN dies. While RS is still doing better job apparently fighting vehicles, then again disks are now better against infantry since the RS nerf.

 

So what options do we have to boost the GDI's lack for armor fighters? Either we remove the Nod Confessor and nerf the Cyborg's cannon so both sides will have to rely on low tier armor fighters, or simply introduce new unit. I think the later is better as the first option is a step back and doesn't add anything better to the game.

 

Disc Throwers have been equalised with the Rocket Soldier, although I agree the nerf was a bit excessive, ditto for the Rocket Soldier as well, damage is fine but the splash is a little small.

 

Both factions should be equalised in that they both have the same (or near) options, it's not really fair for GDI to be shafted since Nod recieved a new unit. (Which does fit) The only right removal was that AA Trooper... I mean, what was that?

 

By the way, the MRV can indeed no longer repair Cyborg Reapers, will this be fixed in the next version?

 

 

Why are you comparing a disk thrower to a Rocket? both should be different. Right now the disc thrower is laughably bad. I'm all for removing the splash from the rocket to make a more direct damage weapon, but a disc throwers damage should come from the splash if anything because of the shrapnel. Few games ago i literally threw the disc and it landed next to someones feet and it delt like 0 damage. And this happened a few times. I enjoyed the disc thrower much more a few patches ago, where you could actually kill infantry with it.

[danpaul88]

Splash is however notorious for being unreliable due to being applied at the location the SERVER thinks your disc landed, which could be vastly different from where it lands on your own screen... which means you have absolutely no idea where to aim to make the splash damage actually work.

 

This had been compensated for (badly) in the past by making the splash radius and damage ludicrously large, but this made the disc thrower the ultimate troll unit in tunnels / interiors where they just spammed discs without even bothering to aim and splashed the hell out of everything.

[VERTi60]

TBH It wouldn't even matter if disks were OP in tunnels, since they are pretty vulnerable on the open field and pretty useless if they have to attack from longer range. The splash could be compensated by ROF. The only problem would be the maps where one tunnel is actually a chocking point (Field?), though the Nod's toxin grenade or Cadre's secondary could basically do the same thing too.

[Timeaua]

I would leave the splash like it was in the previous version with its huge slpash, but decrease the rate of fire a bit, instead of lowering the splash radius.

[DeviousDave]

Maybe you could make them smart discs which are semi-homing, as in they will curve slightly towards the nearest bad guy to where they are thrown or give them proximity fuses that cause them to detonate mid flight if an enemy is within the blast radius.

[Kai]

 

 

Right now GDI relies heavily on vehicles, most of the battles are won by vehicles. From infantry stand point GDI really lacks a good anti armor unit except Stalker ofc. Disk throwers never really worked against armor even in the RTS, they were mere grenadier units and used most in first campaign missions. I think they should, along with rocket soldiers considered to be low tier armor fighters and still available when Bar/HoN dies. While RS is still doing better job apparently fighting vehicles, then again disks are now better against infantry since the RS nerf.

 

So what options do we have to boost the GDI's lack for armor fighters? Either we remove the Nod Confessor and nerf the Cyborg's cannon so both sides will have to rely on low tier armor fighters, or simply introduce new unit. I think the later is better as the first option is a step back and doesn't add anything better to the game.

 

Disc Throwers have been equalised with the Rocket Soldier, although I agree the nerf was a bit excessive, ditto for the Rocket Soldier as well, damage is fine but the splash is a little small.

 

Both factions should be equalised in that they both have the same (or near) options, it's not really fair for GDI to be shafted since Nod recieved a new unit. (Which does fit) The only right removal was that AA Trooper... I mean, what was that?

 

By the way, the MRV can indeed no longer repair Cyborg Reapers, will this be fixed in the next version?

 

 

Why are you comparing a disk thrower to a Rocket? both should be different. Right now the disc thrower is laughably bad. I'm all for removing the splash from the rocket to make a more direct damage weapon, but a disc throwers damage should come from the splash if anything because of the shrapnel. Few games ago i literally threw the disc and it landed next to someones feet and it delt like 0 damage. And this happened a few times. I enjoyed the disc thrower much more a few patches ago, where you could actually kill infantry with it.

 

 

I was comparing in the sense that they both serve as primarily basic anti-tank infantry. What I meant to convey was that you can't really nerf one AT unit without the other side being equalised.

 

Mind you, looking back, I do see why my comparison is wrong, the Rocket Soldier has feasible AA capabilities whereas the Disc Thrower is meant to have a secondary anti-infantry role. Both units were too good against infantry but I do agree the the splash radius is too small, however I feel Nod's variant should have some splash as well since homing is wonky. (You could give him some sort of crappy pistol but that's not an elegant solution)

 

Put simply, I'd be okay with the Disc Thrower regaining that sort of secondary role. The problem I had was that GDI usually always took Disc Throwers as they were cheap and effective, whereas Nod had to buy a variety of infantry to get jobs done.

 

 

though the Nod's toxin grenade or Cadre's secondary could basically do the same thing too.

 

Hmm, no, not really. Perhaps the Cadre can but the reload is slower (and more dangerous to yourself) whereas the Toxin Soldier is bound by limited uses. The Disc Thrower has a huge advantage in that left-clicking makes their discs bounce which keeps Nod away from the tunnels. I do wonder if the tunnels could be expanded into like a network, ala Field2 which negated that problem.