Event [Complete] RA:APB-themed Mafia game III

[VERTi60]

I didn't plan to have any other role to be returned either than reviving war factory or barracks or tanks (but only once)

[Jeod]

Oh, Moony's power is in the dead doc. Tesla HT. Nice.

 

Why go through the trouble of suggesting Nodlied might come back to the game in the vortex doc, then?

[VERTi60]

Why go through the trouble of suggesting Nodlied might come back to the game in the vortex doc, then?

Not sure who suggested it first though. I wouldn't do such a thing

[Category 5 Hurricane]

You were the first person to bring up using an Engineer.

[Voe]

I wouldn't allow this nonsense to happen were I alive.

[Jeod]

You were the first person to bring up using an Engineer.

Yeah, but after I brought it up, Mike asked about it in the vortex doc.

I take solace in knowing that when Category5 and I are both town, scum and third party are FUCKED.

[Category 5 Hurricane]

 

Ohohohhohohoho, that Chopbam post. He knows that they’ll have to lynch scum today. Except that, you know, the are unable to do so! Ahahahahahahahhahaha! Poor guy, he’s on the right track.

Argh. The logic of a guy new to Verti games.

 

Fair enough, I do worry about Choppy shielding Cat5 though (tanks can ‘’protect’’ others during the night).

 

Did you just slip, good sir?

 

Nope.

 

Choppy protected Cat5, therefore, Choppy died

Ah, so they really did target Cat5? I'm glad I protected him then. And the log confirms this. Woop, I did something right! Hopefully this makes up for my not catching on to your "obvious War Factory" thing earlier on, Cat5. Although, it really wasn't that obvious to me. I had no idea why I received a heavy tank in the night, and I didn't connect it to a war factory role, especially considering war factories did not exist in previous mafia games.

 

You can post in pics. But not much

I just don’t want people to be confused that you are actually playing and have to be killed again or something.

I guess people got confused anyway, but Jeod really did push them in that direction.

 

 

ChopBam, I was hoping you receiving that tank just before I said "take the shot!" would allow you to connect the dots that if I told you to take the shot, that had to mean I knew you could, which would mean I was responsible for you receiving it without me outright claiming it. It was deliberately vague, so I don't blame you for not catching on.

 

It wasn't as crazy as thinking that a mafia role can change itself, just for example, but you still did quite well. I hope you keep playing.

 

You were the first person to bring up using an Engineer.

Yeah, but after I brought it up, Mike asked about it in the vortex doc.

I take solace in knowing that when Category5 and I are both town, scum and third party are FUCKED.

 

 

I don't know about that. I feel like I did very well in this game, but I get myself off track more often than not. It's like the more experienced I get, the more I look for crazy answers that cover up the obvious. (No, VERTi60, Jeod suddenly not being a building is not obvious.)

[Jeod]

But the obvious was that scum should die.

[Category 5 Hurricane]

We should play some APB to get some aggression out of our system. Like maybe, now.

 

Also, maybe schedule a game for Friday, from around when hammer was during the game until we stop playing?

But the obvious was that scum should die.

Yes, of course, and it wasn't obvious on how to do that.

[Jeod]

Cat5, I sense you're frustrated. Please, look at my avatar and think about the future.

[VERTi60]

I don't know about that. I feel like I did very well in this game, but I get myself off track more often than not. It's like the more experienced I get, the more I look for crazy answers that cover up the obvious. (No, VERTi60, Jeod suddenly not being a building is not obvious.)

You did good scum hunting and following Jeod's every move.

 

But you were fixed on very bare 2d thinking, not having enough "open mind" to accept first that allied buildings could be a thing and then second never analyzed why there were no night kills before when suddenly wallymoon was confirmed to be night killed.

Through logic and by knowing that Jeod is allied, unlynchable, unable to night kill, while everyone else was pretty much cleared one way or another, the only solution was that something has changed allowing night kills for Jeod or via some mechanic.

Anyway point was that Jeod was the only logical target for shooting and lynching (what else you can do)

It was indicated in the thread multiple times that scum need to do something in order to allow night kills (before discussions were suggesting third party elimination, then chronosphere elimination could be next logical step).

[Category 5 Hurricane]

Exactly how many people not scum or GM were able to make the jump from "Jeod is a building" to "Jeod isn't a building anymore". While the answer of course is correct, it doesn't follow as an actual argument to make. It isn't viewed as something that is possible within the rules that the game appears to have. Town had two role-changing roles, but neither could change themselves. So how are we to determine that Jeod can just change his own role?

[VERTi60]

That's why I told you about the balancer mechanics I put in game to start thinking about it

You were occupied by the vortex mechanic instead of analyzing the other aspects of having building as scum which can't nightkill (unless?)

[Jeod]

Exactly how many people not scum or GM were able to make the jump from "Jeod is a building" to "Jeod isn't a building anymore". While the answer of course is correct, it doesn't follow as an actual argument to make. It isn't viewed as something that is possible within the rules that the game appears to have. Town had two role-changing roles, but neither could change themselves. So how are we to determine that Jeod can just change his own role?

If both scum are buildings, and town has two buildings, what happens if all the town infantry die? Scum wouldn't be able to nightkill and town wouldn't be able to lynch. I doubt Verti would allow that, and as we can see from today's daypost, there was indeed a nightkill. It could have been the vortex, sure, but what if after one of the scum dies the other gains the ability to nightkill?

Edited October 5, 2016 by Jeod

[Category 5 Hurricane]

Except they did nightkill before. And you calling it a "superweapon" doesn't make it not a nightkill. It was a kill, and it happened at night. It's a nightkill.

[Jeod]

So if the Pillbox gained the ability to nightkill, what about the passive ability to kill visiting players? If it's busy shooting at one of us during the night, it shouldn't be able to defend itself. Either the role has changed and scum is no longer unlynchable or we can now visit scum at night and do nefarious things to them.

 

I say crazy things, and with the way this game went I would be called crazy for suggesting this. But I would also be correct and it would make the discussion shift away from the vortex, which is what scum does not want.

[Chaos_Knight]

Except they did nightkill before. And you calling it a "superweapon" doesn't make it not a nightkill. It was a kill, and it happened at night. It's a nightkill.

Also I'd like to point out a few things from my own perspective.

 

1st of all I was NOT told from the start that only Sov infantry can accept my invites so I had to act on the assumption that I am a classic gunsmith. And gunsmith can give weapons to any party: friend, foe or neutral. Granted I had a condition that only infantry favors with hands could be trained but that was not enough.

 

2nd. If Jeod was given an option to ##dismantle, why didn't Cat5 or I get it also? Then we could at least deduct that Jeod may or may not be building anymore. Or Cat5 could dismantle and become another inf I could train for example.

 

3rd. Viceroids being a "Werewolf"-style setup are fine, however, said setup also normally features a "Hunter" who will kill any "Werewolf" he would visit at night. Just like "Cults" normally get a "Shrink" to balance them out. Otherwise town may never catch up in numbers before it's too late.

 

4th. Misleading evidence. Vortexes in RA1 kill, and they kill hardcore. They don't supercharge. Dead WallyMoon had a lightning on his pic. Put 2 and 2 together. It also made sense with the cult/werewolves present that only after 1 of the scum died, they became "activated" and got the ability to kill.

 

5th. Balancing mechanics are fine to be introduced mid-game if the stuff is going into a dead end. However, said mechanics should be made clear for everyone currently involved, not just silently given to one party.

[VERTi60]

Except they did nightkill before. And you calling it a "superweapon" doesn't make it not a nightkill. It was a kill, and it happened at night. It's a nightkill.

Well there is a difference. A night kill standard action allows mafia to kill any target each night as long the action is not role blocked, while the superweapon allies had could only work sometimes, not each night, required charging, couldn't target building roles and had a chance to fail as well. It also had a significant flavor attached to it indicating what could be the cause. Check Chrono Vortex doc for full details.

 

 

Also I'd like to point out a few things from my own perspective.

 

1st of all I was NOT told from the start that only Soviet infantry can accept my invites so I had to act on the assumption that I am a classic gunsmith. And gunsmith can give weapons to any party: friend, foe or neutral. Granted I had a condition that only infantry favors with hands could be trained but that was not enough.

 

2nd. If Jeod was given an option to ##dismantle, why didn't Cat5 or I get it also? Then we could at least deduct that Jeod may or may not be building anymore. Or Cat5 could dismantle and become another inf I could train for example.

 

3rd. Viceroids being a "Werewolf"-style setup are fine, however, said setup also normally features a "Hunter" who will kill any "Werewolf" he would visit at night. Just like "Cults" normally get a "Shrink" to balance them out. Otherwise town may never catch up in numbers before it's too late.

 

4th. Misleading evidence. Vortexes in RA1 kill, and they kill hardcore. They don't supercharge. Dead WallyMoon had a lightning on his pic. Put 2 and 2 together. It also made sense with the cult/werewolves present that only after 1 of the scum died, they became "activated" and got the ability to kill.

 

5th. Balancing mechanics are fine to be introduced mid-game if the stuff is going into a dead end. However, said mechanics should be made clear for everyone currently involved, not just silently given to one party.

1. It wouldn't work with visceroid or allied/soviet buildings - obviously. Hence I didn't have to tell you that since there were only soviet infantry in game. So I didn't tell you until everyone's role was pretty clear by the end where it didn't matter.

2. As I said, it was a conditioned balance mechanic for the allies. It was only allowed if he's left as the only allied player to enable night kills to prevent a no-win scenario. Soviets didn't need such a mechanic as their vanilla role wouldn't matter in such a scenario and they could still lynch the remaining allied player regardless, plus town started already with additional 5 infantry roles which was enough. And information wise, such information would give out that allies are buildings, which was the whole point of the game to figure out. Hence also nobody got the engineer role from the start which day action could indicate same thing.

3. You could call allies as their counterpart - Jeod's pillbox was a visceroid trap and Nodlied's chronosphere could wipe the whole cult (see Chrono Vortex doc).

4. Well last time the vortex created ghosts and rainbow tree so I'm not going to comment on this. I wanted to vortex to have at least one boost option besides killing so that Nodlied would have to gamble a bit - it kinda worked in both cases but wasn't all that necessary by the end.

[Chaos_Knight]

1. It wouldn't work with visceroid or allied/soviet buildings - obviously. Hence I didn't have to tell you that since there were only soviet infantry in game. So I didn't tell you until everyone's role was pretty clear by the end where it didn't matter.

2. As I said, it was a conditioned balance mechanic for the allies. It was only allowed if he's left as the only allied player to enable night kills to prevent a no-win scenario. Soviets didn't need such a mechanic as their vanilla role wouldn't matter in such a scenario and they could still lynch the remaining allied player regardless, plus town started already with additional 5 infantry roles which was enough. And information wise, such information would give out that allies are buildings, which was the whole point of the game to figure out. Hence also nobody got the engineer role from the start which day action could indicate same thing.

3. You could call allies as their counterpart - Jeod's pillbox was a visceroid trap and Nodlied's chronosphere could wipe the whole cult (see Chrono Vortex doc).

4. Well last time the vortex created ghosts and rainbow tree so I'm not going to comment on this. I wanted to vortex to have at least one boost option besides killing so that Nodlied would have to gamble a bit - it kinda worked in both cases but wasn't all that necessary by the end.

1. While you dind't have to indeed, it, however, would have allowed for clearing out town people as basically confirmed.

And if Isaac didn't derp, it also opened them up for consumption/conversion/erasing from history.

 

2. You could easily avoid spoiling anything if you just stated in the very first PMs Cat5 and I got that "under dire conditions you may ##dismantle and turn into vanilla town (rifle)". No spoilers, no extra info but makes it clear that buildings may switch to be not buildings. You could even make it a full building flavor mechanic

 

3. Scum counters cults but not Werewolves which you replicated with viceroids because they aren't "weak" so they only die when actually attacked not by just visiting scum. Also like any cult, they can be squashed D1/N1 but after that... Let's just say that if they aren't uncovered by N2 cults usually win.

 

4. The differece between this and higher plane of eeexiiistenceeee *ahem* is that it was Game+, not the main mafia so it was expected to be weird.

 

5. And about this one again even though you didn't reply to it. You already had a role-changing event once in your games and did it extremely well. Remember DS1 game? It was clear something changed for everyone but we couldn't figure out the details until the very end. Maybe you could do something similar here?

Like D6 or 7:

"Vortex has reached the outpost and forced you to evacuate. You are now hiding in the nearby forest but the vortex is getting closer...

Buildings have been converted infantry."

[VERTi60]

1. While you dind't have to indeed, it, however, would have allowed for clearing out town people as basically confirmed.

And if Isaac didn't derp, it also opened them up for consumption/conversion/erasing from history.

I was already concerned with both you and cat5 to clear people very easily (which did work as intended). Hence I decided not to reveal totally everything to you

You were already cleared from the other infantry perspective as there could be no other role than soviet to give out soviet ht and soviet infantry role

 

 

2. You could easily avoid spoiling anything if you just stated in the very first PMs Cat5 and I got that "under dire conditions you may ##dismantle and turn into vanilla town (rifle)". No spoilers, no extra info but makes it clear that buildings may switch to be not buildings. You could even make it a full building flavor mechanic

There was no need for it and even after the game turned out, there was still no need for it. I've even had chrono vortex giving additional kills/extra shoots which could also apply to soviet buildings. Admit it, you only wanted it to have that extra information Which was crucial to the allies to survive. If you would knew about this, jeod would have no "ace in the hole". He would be doomed from the very start and he would complain that allies were doomed because of all the perfect town clearing mechanic. And I would have to agree with him. Town was the most powerful faction this game, even without the information they were able to lynch and/or shoot their suspects everyday.

 

 

3. Scum counters cults but not Werewolves which you replicated with viceroids because they aren't "weak" so they only die when actually attacked not by just visiting scum. Also like any cult, they can be squashed D1/N1 but after that... Let's just say that if they aren't uncovered by N2 cults usually win.

Not sure what you mean by this. Cult in this case could only grow if they converted an infantry, which was 50% chance. There was a 10% they could have been wiped out starting N1 and additional 10% each day Nodlied used chronosphere.

 

 

4. The differece between this and h

igher plane of eeexiiistenceeee *ahem* is that it was Game+, not the main mafia so it was expected to be weird.

 

Everyone got what they wished for It was balanced, and it worked as intended. So no regrets. I was only hoping for more third party kills but everything else worked as I thought it would.

 

 

5th. Balancing mechanics are fine to be introduced mid-game if the stuff is going into a dead end. However, said mechanics should be made clear for everyone currently involved, not just silently given to one party.

 

And about this one again even though you didn't reply to it. You already had a role-changing event once in your games and did it extremely well. Remember DS1 game? It was clear something changed for everyone but we couldn't figure out the details until the very end. Maybe you could do something similar here?

Like D6 or 7:

"Vortex has reached the outpost and forced you to evacuate. You are now hiding in the nearby forest but the vortex is getting closer...

Buildings have been converted infantry."

I don't like inventing mechanics mid game and then get the blame for not telling earlier. It's not how one should design games. I was expecting a scenario where mafia is left without killing capabilities so I've made a mechanic ensuring it won't happen. Why waiting for it mid game when there was a pretty good chance of it happening?

Once again I didn't want to tell you outright that jeod (as a building) can change his role because that would "kill" the point of having it in the first place.

I really don't know why you are complaining Chaos, you and Cat 5 had the game in the bag pretty much once Nodlied and Jeod were exposed, you had them on frying pan and pretty much at any point you could have won. The only mistake you did was voting last second which I also taken into account and decided to not give anyone 100% win for it.

[moonsense715]

When does the next game start?

Also would it be forum or irc/teamspeak?

[VERTi60]

I want to announce a teamspeak chat/voice version of this game - 10 minute phases, more common roles (no custom) this Friday with possible repeat Sat and Sun and next Fri at the same time we had the game starting.

So let me know who could join up on ts.w3dhub.com for a chat version which could start Friday at 10 PM UTC/GMT

 

Based on that we can schedule.

[Chaos_Knight]

I really don't know why you are complaining Chaos, you and Cat 5 had the game in the bag pretty much once Nodlied and Jeod were exposed, you had them on frying pan and pretty much at any point you could have won. The only mistake you did was voting last second which I also taken into account and decided to not give anyone 100% win for it.

That's EXACTLY why I am complaining

We (mostly me ) found last scum as early as D5 but could not remove him from the game by any means we had for the last 3 days and technically lost. It just feels wrong, I admit.

Idk, maybe Cat5 can explain it better.

[VERTi60]

 

I really don't know why you are complaining Chaos, you and Cat 5 had the game in the bag pretty much once Nodlied and Jeod were exposed, you had them on frying pan and pretty much at any point you could have won. The only mistake you did was voting last second which I also taken into account and decided to not give anyone 100% win for it.

That's EXACTLY why I am complaining

We (mostly me ) found last scum as early as D5 but could not remove him from the game by any means we had for the last 3 days and technically lost. It just feels wrong, I admit.

Idk, maybe Cat5 can explain it better.

 

 

Well they couldn't remove you either You have to feel it from all perspectives, not just yours But town had the aiblity to shoot/lynch/use all PR plan actions every phase at least, so a lot of ways to reveal and dipose of scum. You can't really complain there.

The only faction that could remove pretty much anyone straight away was third party but they didn't have the luxury of being unlynchanble or bullet proof.

I will draw you a scheme to show you the game balance through everyone's perspective. As you have the problem to see it only from your point.

[Jeod]

 

I really don't know why you are complaining Chaos, you and Cat 5 had the game in the bag pretty much once Nodlied and Jeod were exposed, you had them on frying pan and pretty much at any point you could have won. The only mistake you did was voting last second which I also taken into account and decided to not give anyone 100% win for it.

That's EXACTLY why I am complaining

We (mostly me ) found last scum as early as D5 but could not remove him from the game by any means we had for the last 3 days and technically lost. It just feels wrong, I admit.

Idk, maybe Cat5 can explain it better.

 

 

You could have lynched me. I just made you think you couldn't.

[VERTi60]

1. So as you can see: Allied and Soviet buildings couldn't harm each other directly. They were suppose to be the prime pillars of the game.

 

2. Third party was suppose to be the main drive of kills in this game, with a 50% chance to grow or 10% fail at start, but that would change each day once more people are killed or revealed. They could hamper both soviets or allies, but allies were basically their hardest counter in game due to pillbox defense and chronosphere superweapon capable of erasing them from game completely.

 

3. Third group is the Soviet infantry which was a cannon fodder for either third party or Allies, or could be also buffed and rearmed everyday by soviet buildings. I think Chaos described them best as Attrition warfare - all sides could exploit the town infantry for their own benefit. Two of the town infantry started with Power Roles already - Mojoman as sane role cop and KY wanted a role blocker infantry which could also drive the game and hamper each of the other three groups.

[Isaac The Madd]

Also not every visceroid could convert infantry only one could at any time.

 

Most you of had the idea that we would swarm the place with converts exponentially.

 

Also Mojoman was my Day 1 target, because he latched on last game over a trivial thing.

[VERTi60]

First voice/chat version scheduled on Friday 7th October at 10 PM UTC/GMT

 

Place: ts.w3dhub.com

 

Game mode: Standard RA: APB Mafia. (Standard Role sheet will be updated on Fri)

Length: 5-10 players max, 10 minute phases.

Form: Chat, (voice allowed as well but only for discussion, not game actions)

[ChopBam]

Where are signups? Here?

[VERTi60]

Yea.

But if you show up on teamspeak on Friday 10 PM UTC it's fine for registration

Sign ups here just help me know how many can play.