Balance APC and Medics

[des1206]

Anyone else feel these two units are very situational and still underused? Early game infantry rushes just use the supply truck these, and so does late game when your team dominates the field. There is also rarely any incentive to an APC rushes given how many Allied vehicles out there are +1. Maybe give the APC a way to not just refill, but "overcharge" infantry armor once they are inside for awhile?

 

The medic has a nice healing rate and good anti-infantry, but his anti-vehicle dmg is abysmal, and anti-MCT dmg is worse than the rifleman. For $500, can I at least get a weapon that does rifleman or officer equliivent damage to vehicles and MCT?

Edited September 25, 2016 by des1206

[Killing_You]

The medic has a nice healing rate and good anti-infantry, but his anti-vehicle dmg is abysmal, and anti-MCT dmg is worse than the rifleman. For $500, can I at least get a weapon that does rifleman or officer equliivent damage to vehicles and MCT?

 

That happened back in Gamma. The result was Medics that were only used as, essentially, upgraded rifle soldiers. $800 for self healing, team healing, and the same M16 as the base rifle soldier. He was barely used as a Medic. At the time, however, the only alternative was to give him a pistol, which made him essentially useless without other players. The MP5 has given him a happy medium, and he actually feels like he fits as a support unit.

[Pushwall]

 

The medic has a nice healing rate and good anti-infantry, but his anti-vehicle dmg is abysmal, and anti-MCT dmg is worse than the rifleman. For $500, can I at least get a weapon that does rifleman or officer equliivent damage to vehicles and MCT?

 

That happened back in Gamma. The result was Medics that were only used as, essentially, upgraded rifle soldiers. $800 for self healing, team healing, and the same M16 as the base rifle soldier. He was barely used as a Medic. At the time, however, the only alternative was to give him a pistol, which made him essentially useless without other players. The MP5 has given him a happy medium, and he actually feels like he fits as a support unit.

 

And during the MP5's inception, it actually had the same warhead as the M16/AK-47 (no damage penalty vs non-infantry units), and as a result, about the same DPS versus vehicles/buildings as the M16. This was quickly shown to be a bit too good.

 

I've already seen that it has its issues though and next build it's getting its reload time dropped somewhat (2.35 -> 1.85 seconds) which will raise its anti-hardstuff DPS somewhat but not to rifle soldier levels.

 

If there's any unused radar blip IDs (there is sadly a limited supply of these) I will see about giving the Medic a + radar blip (for his team only so it doesn't help the enemy) so that maybe the people he's supporting will know where he is and not stray too far from him, a problem I always run into when trying to heal people. Might do the same for mechanics too since they fulfill a similar role but for vehicles instead and are never going to be mixed in with medics in a building assault.

[Killing_You]

That sounds like a good solution. On the subject of the APC, I do feel like they're not used as much as they should be. Perhaps an upgrade in firepower could help?

[Pushwall]

Thing is any buff to them that doesn't also affect Rangers devalues Rangers since they have the same weapon. But yeah, the Ranger/APC gun is getting buffed considerably next version, with a magazine size of 100. Its damage to buildings is reduced so the DPS barely changes at all, but it kills everything else 16.67% faster and has to stop for reload breaks less.

 

Maybe APCs could have 400 health but not have the 100 magazine, so they're better at pushing through defenses to get infantry to where they need to be, without making them turn Rangers into simple Tanya chariots again? After all I'd rather see APCs be used as APCs rather than used as Armoured Rangers. Alternatively we could open up the can of worms that is the AUTOCANNON , and give it to the APC so it becomes partway between a light tank/ranger in combat specialty, which also gives it a better shot at clearing mines around buildings since it'd have splash damage?

 

Speaking of Rangers their physics have also been overhauled - they should handle less slippery and not get stuck humping rocks as much.

[Killing_You]

I mean, if nothing else we can always give the APC a different weapon. The thing uses an M2 Browning IRL, and I don't see what's stopping us from ripping it off of the old APC and slapping it on the current one. And if we need to find a way to make it not better than the Ranger, we could make it fire slower than the M60 so that it's not as great vs infantry, but maybe better vs vehicles.

 

Of course, this is only if we can't strike a good balance by toying with the current stats. What you've got planned seems like it could be a good solution.

[Pushwall]

Liking the idea of using the old Browning. Could tweak its stats so it's better at anti-air (Allies are kind of boned on AA when their barracks is down... Soviets not nearly as much), and give it a very minor amount of "clearing charge" class splash damage for the anti-mine role I mentioned before. And besides, it does have a pretty shoddy rate of fire for a machinegun.

[des1206]

- Can we give the APC a horn? I think all it often takes to form an infantry rush is a call to action from the horn.

 

- Can the engineer's mine detection ability be given to the APC as well?

 

 

[Pushwall]

- Can the engineer's mine detection ability be given to the APC as well?

 

Let's not render the Engineer entirely pointless on offense for Allies outside of naval maps. APC is already getting extra effectiveness vs mines, it doesn't need more than that.

[des1206]

Allies could also use a more dedicated anti-infantry vehicle that can better deal with shockies and Volkov (ranger doesn't have the health), maybe the more health idea isn't so bad.

Edited September 25, 2016 by des1206

[Pushwall]

Allies could also use a vehicle that can better deal with shockies and Volkov (ranger doesn't have the health), maybe the more health idea isn't so bad.

 

Shock troopers are also getting a nerf against light armour vehicles (excluding phases/MGGs/demos) and will need 1 more hit to kill them so the APC may not need this.

[Killing_You]

But the advantage of the ranger is it's speed and maneuverability. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Phase Tanks have decent anti-infantry, and they are at the tier to deal with those troops.

[Pushwall]

Hence why Volkovs aren't getting nerfed in that department. They can actually miss

[FRAYDO]

- Can we give the APC a horn? I think all it often takes to form an infantry rush is a call to action from the horn.

I think horns should be given to everything.

[harvester]

I've been thinking these 2 underused units need a buff too but for it's intended role. I don't want the medic to be an upgraded rifle soldier again or the APC side ability to overcharge people, I want their healing and transport abilities to get more attention and usefulness.

 

How about instead of buffing the medic and APC transport abilities, why not nerf self-regeneration and sprinting. If you can't change something to be better, change everything else to be worse.

- Can we give the APC a horn? I think all it often takes to form an infantry rush is a call to action from the horn.

Yeah!

 

- Can we give the APC a horn? I think all it often takes to form an infantry rush is a call to action from the horn.

I think horns should be given to everything.

 

HELL YEAH!

[Alstar]

Alright, so medic. Someone made important point about Gamma, where medic teams were simply broken and unstoppable. This changed during start of delta, when difference between medic and rifle infantry weapons was colossal to point where it was no longer viable. Later on after MP5 update medics once again were unstoppably broken, suddenly 5 medics healing each other in your base and happily taking out everything on their way, be it tank, infantry or building. After it got patched, from my POV medic is very often used unit during both assaults and defenses - i can also notice people taking med/medic combo to the fields.

 

I like Pushwall's APC ideas. Sounds like good enchancements for this underused unit.

[des1206]

Alright, so medic. Someone made important point about Gamma, where medic teams were simply broken and unstoppable. This changed during start of delta, when difference between medic and rifle infantry weapons was colossal to point where it was no longer viable. Later on after MP5 update medics once again were unstoppably broken, suddenly 5 medics healing each other in your base and happily taking out everything on their way, be it tank, infantry or building. After it got patched, from my POV medic is very often used unit during both assaults and defenses - i can also notice people taking med/medic combo to the fields.

 

I like Pushwall's APC ideas. Sounds like good enchancements for this underused unit.

 

Medic being OP isn't a problem of its weapon. Or else you would be saying a bunch of rifleman in your base is OP.

 

He's OP if his healing ability stacks. (Does it?)

[JigglyJie]

Just as long as APCs (and Rangers) don't get a range increase. We don't need Beta times where they outranged coils...

 

That being said, I like the idea of the APC being more than just an armoured Ranger, an autocannon could be an interesting weapon to experiment. Like, the Ranger could be your fast assault vehicle capable of unleashing a barrage of bullets whereas the APC would be a bit more conservative but also more capable of being more than just a mere transport.

 

As for Medics, I'd rather they be left alone for now. They now have that happy medium where they can defend themselves, at least against softer targets if need be, but not ridiculous to the point where they were kind of TOO good like they were back in Gamma/early Delta.

[Alstar]

 

Medic being OP isn't a problem of its weapon. Or else you would be saying a bunch of rifleman in your base is OP.

 

He's OP if his healing ability stacks. (Does it?)

 

 

 

Medic being OP was a problem of its weapon aswell. And it was a bunch of riflemans who can heal each other. Healing effect doesnt stack afaik

[Killing_You]

They were also faster than rifles in Gamma IIRC. And they had self healing as well. Personally, I never found them OP, they were just never used as medics, which annoyed me.

[Raptor29aa]

The chinook idea -yes!

The medic idea... no -my concern is faster reload makes multiple medics unstoppable indoors.

The APC ideas

- increase damage... No

- splash damage... Yes

- armor increase... Yes

 

Reasoning: I believe the function of the APC is to carry infantry and defend them. It must have armor enough to take a beating. Resupplying is a plus. As far as weapons go... I am unsure. I feel being more anti-infantry than anti-tank would be beneficial to the survival of the passengers (APCs have med tanks to escort them). As far as building damage goes... It should be as effective as a ranger (because the passengers should be doing the damage).

[des1206]

How about we give APC its 360 turret rotation back? Idea is the driver could push "," and make its passenger an effective gunner.

[MPRA2]

How about we give APC its 360 turret rotation back? Idea is the driver could push "," and make its passenger an effective gunner.

I actually like the idea of giving the APC a blind spot, as it could EASILY turn around to cover it because of its treads and turn radius.

but then again I cant use APCs or anything effectively because I cant aim. I'm SLIGHTLY GETTING THERE THOUGH....

[ChopBam]

A lot has been said here. Pushwall did you address the suggestion to let the APC refill armor and c4 like the supply truck does?

 

Also what if Chinooks could do this?

[Pushwall]

It already refills armour and I believe it has since before Delta's release. C4 might be a bit too much given it's nowhere near as fragile as a supply truck and is also faster.

[ChopBam]

Guess I saw it doesn't refill C4 and assumed it doesn't refill armor.

[MPRA2]

I think we should just leave the Supply truck as an ammo refilling vehicle, as the Chinook could fly around and pick engies up, refill them, drop them in the allied base, repeat cycle.
APCs, drive around and lulz around volkovs and heavy tanks or whatever, refill engies, spam c4 on EVERYTHING. just imagine a 3 man APC rush filled with a good 4 engineers and a few shotties.... its..... yeah.... not pretty.

[ChopBam]

Good point, and I suppose the APC's current underuse will be alleviated by weapon improvement.

[MPRA2]

Good point, and I suppose the APC's current underuse will be alleviated by weapon improvement.

APCs are underused? huh..... I never knew that... I see them pretty much all the time on maps without shocks/volkovs.

[Jeod]

 

Good point, and I suppose the APC's current underuse will be alleviated by weapon improvement.

APCs are underused? huh..... I never knew that... I see them pretty much all the time on maps without shocks/volkovs.

 

 

That's in part because I don't pay attention to the new stats and just like using APCs