Question Base capture

[ganein14]

I was wondering, since we have buildings that can be captured, is there a way to implement something like this to allow the enemy to build/train their forces for there own now? Like soviets building MGGs and Mechanics, and the allies building mammoth and tesla tanks?

[Pushwall]

Like soviets building MGGs and Mechanics, and the allies building mammoth and tesla tanks?

 

Nooooooooooooooooooooo. Back in 2.1.4, MPF proved that this was the worst idea ever. It's not even worth trying to balance this.

 

Also a lot of people seem to have forgotten about the whole "We are not going to make any more insanely radical gameplay changes that require months of balance work because the game is fine as it is" thing.

[ganein14]

Then how about just basic units like the heavy tank and flamethrower, or the light tank and the thief? Or would that still be pointless.

[Pushwall]

Heavy tank is mostly redundant for Allies, and the thief is not "basic" by any stretch as it is practically a Tanya that can only target refineries but does something more useful than just stopping the enemy economy. Since Allies don't get AP mine layers, that's probably even more unfair than Soviets being able to steal Tanyas, which was a thing on MPF's 2.1.4 server and was one of the biggest sources of complaints back then.

 

You know, I'd much rather take the effort that could be spent on clawing desperately at bad ideas in futile attempts to make them balanced and spend that effort reviving old maps instead.

[FRAYDO]

reviving old maps instead.

let's take votes on which old maps we want to see revived?

[delta]

Shallow Grave, Metro, Bunkers, A Path Beyond, Canyon River (I think that was the name)...

 

Heck, all of 'em

[devilslayersbane]

Personally, I'd like to see an urban map that wasn't crap. I'm sorry, but I never really enjoyed metro. I'd like to see one revamped with more above ground routes and the return of the tunnels (because I never got to use those) as well as some buildings that can be garrisoned on the second floor. But alas, now this topic has derailed.

 

On topic. Yeah, no. Not unless you have a giant map where each team has more than one base could that even possibly be balanced with the game in it's current state. Even then, that's stretching it.

[gammae102]

Shallow Grave, Metro, Bunkers, A Path Beyond, Canyon River (I think that was the name)...

 

Heck, all of 'em

Metro and Bunkers I never particularly cared for, but Canyon River was always a favorite of mine and Shallow Grave might be a nice inclusion now that naval has been reworked. I think, for obvious reasons, A Path Beyond should be remade too, but I also realize that that map would need to be the most extensively reworked.

[Ice]

Personally, I'd like to see an urban map that wasn't crap. I'm sorry, but I never really enjoyed metro. I'd like to see one revamped with more above ground routes and the return of the tunnels (because I never got to use those) as well as some buildings that can be garrisoned on the second floor. But alas, now this topic has derailed.

I like Metro (and would like to see more urban maps in general), but the art direction needs a complete overhaul, ideally to look like a 1940's/50's European city, not downtown Los Angeles circa 1991.

 

Also I'd love to see Canyon River and Camos Crossing come back, and of course, APB isn't really complete without the map which shares its name and is one of the most well-known maps in RA1.

 

Okay, back on topic now.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Ice

[Isaac The Madd]

What about neutral capturable structures?

[ganein14]

What about neutral capturable structures?

I would like to see more neutral structures that could be captured in maps. Say like the oil pumps, repair depots, refill pads, fuck, maybe even a small outpost that has all three can only be captured by the enemy once the faction specific defenses have been destroyed.

[harvester]

What about neutral capturable structures?

As long as it's not stealing enemy's tech im fine.

[Einstein]

What about neutral capturable structures?

As long as it's not stealing enemy's tech im fine.

 

I agree with this statement. I think that little "outposts" like the ones that Raap made on Hostile Waters are really nice and add a nice dynamic to the gameplay. It gives another objective besides "win by base destruction". And it might just might keep the player count up if the match becomes really one-sided. Because while it may be impossible to destroy the enemy's base, it is far more possible to hold a control point such as a "tech" structure, if I can borrow some RA2 terminology. People will not lose hope as quickly if there is still something that they can do.

[Pushwall]

Neutral service depots probably aren't a good idea though because they can render the Allied advantage of being able to repair in the field moot, allowing Soviets to mount extended sieges with their superior units, while Allies don't get superior units to reinforce their extended sieges (which is just as well because introducing tech stealing means Mammoths and Mechanics on the same team = GG, and Tesla Tank Mechanics probably aren't that much weaker.) Not to mention that it gives more power to vehicles in general, which they really don't need right now. It's only half-fair on Hostile Waters because naval units can't use SDs, air units can't refill their ammo while they're on SDs, and mechanics are less usable with either of those than they are with ground vehicles anyway.

[Einstein]

Allies don't get superior units to reinforce their extended sieges

 

So add Cruisers already!

 

Totally kidding. I guess I see your point.

[Ice]

Capturable structures (oil derricks, etc.), usable assets (Reward crates, pre-spawned Rangers/Supply Trucks like on some current maps, a 'pilotable' MG nest/AT gun position/AA battery, etc.), or even just more areas to take cover and mount a defence from (more trenches/foxholes, heavy vegetation, civilian buildings and ruins, small abandoned/destroyed bases, etc.), probably combined with the above two ideas would still be really cool to see. So far all the map revamps have been moving in the right direction with this, and I hope it continues.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Ice

[ganein14]

Neutral service depots probably aren't a good idea though because they can render the Allied advantage of being able to repair in the field moot, allowing Soviets to mount extended sieges with their superior units, while Allies don't get superior units to reinforce their extended sieges (which is just as well because introducing tech stealing means Mammoths and Mechanics on the same team = GG, and Tesla Tank Mechanics probably aren't that much weaker.) Not to mention that it gives more power to vehicles in general, which they really don't need right now. It's only half-fair on Hostile Waters because naval units can't use SDs, air units can't refill their ammo while they're on SDs, and mechanics are less usable with either of those than they are with ground vehicles anyway.

If it's possible, make it so that its much more expensive and slower to repair out there while at the same time taking two or even three full golden wrenches to cap it. So that doing so would still cause some problems if they need to make repairs in the field and they would still be vulnerable, whereas unlike the mechanic, who can do repairs for free anywhere and anytime. Not to mention it would allow minelayers to rearm in the field and allow them to do so if all of theirs at the base are destroyed.

[delta]

Nooooooooooooooooooooo. Back in 2.1.4, MPF proved that this was the worst idea ever. It's not even worth trying to balance this.

There was a server that allowed for capturing buildings? Is there a video of this somewhere?

[Pushwall]

It wasn't capturing buildings specifically - just stealing technology, which is actually more fair than straight up capturing because at least the enemy still has the building and is therefore capable of mirroring your mammoth-mechs with their own if they dabble in tech capturing too (not that that actually makes mammoth-mechs fair or balanced at all).

Also the engine treats base structures quite differently from aux structures so I'm doubtful of if actually capturing something like a war factory would even be doable, and if it is it would take far too much effort to get it implemented and then another batch of far too much effort would need to be spent overhauling the balance of everything in the game to make such a thing fair. So no.

[SarahNautili]

Was this a Zunnie run server? That sounds like the sorta bad idea he'd dabble in

[Pushwall]

Was this a Zunnie run server? That sounds like the sorta bad idea he'd dabble in

 

How did you ever guess

[GeneralCamo]

The guy wanted to make APB into TCW but Red Alert. He ported over most of the features from it and made them server-side mods.

[gammae102]

For what it's worth, in the Dark Ages before Delta came out zunnie's Co-op server was the best thing APB had going for it.

[SarahNautili]

I keep seeing references to a TCW, and it apparently being bad. ?

 

I went googling and found a site for it but apparently the place is a ghost town, and screw downloading another near gig w3d client to find out what's wrong with it

I mean knowing Zunnie I can already imagine, but fill me in anyway

[Einstein]

The game is comprised of ripped-straight-from-C&C3 textures. It is literally begging for an EA lawsuit.

[Raap]

It wasn't capturing buildings specifically - just stealing technology, which is actually more fair than straight up capturing because at least the enemy still has the building and is therefore capable of mirroring your mammoth-mechs with their own if they dabble in tech capturing too (not that that actually makes mammoth-mechs fair or balanced at all).

Also the engine treats base structures quite differently from aux structures so I'm doubtful of if actually capturing something like a war factory would even be doable, and if it is it would take far too much effort to get it implemented and then another batch of far too much effort would need to be spent overhauling the balance of everything in the game to make such a thing fair. So no.

 

Certainly doable since Hostile Water's buildings are baked into terrain like regular base buildings, but use a duplicate hidden mesh for in-game targeting and game logic.

 

The big question is, would you want to do that? I think not. Besides, that's really threading into AR territory, and base capture is their thing.

 

"Tech buildings" (I don't like that word or the concept) rarely make sense. Abandoned, map-specific capturable objectives make more sense, but only if the map setting supports it, and even then, only if the gameplay benefits from it. I didn't add the abandoned buildings to HW for a laugh, they tie into the map gameplay plot and do impact gameplay immensely. Would I use the same buildings on other maps? No, that'd be cheap and make less sense. Would I design new capturable objectives for maps that make sense for this? Sure.

 

Why think so small, though. There are plenty of other things you could set up for Engineers to do, such as toggling withdraw bridges in caves, repairing elevators, opening different passages in a map, etc.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Raap

[ganein14]

Why think so small, though. There are plenty of other things you could set up for Engineers to do, such as toggling withdraw bridges in caves, repairing elevators, opening different passages in a map, etc.

THIS! MAKE THIS A THING!

[Raap]

 

Why think so small, though. There are plenty of other things you could set up for Engineers to do, such as toggling withdraw bridges in caves, repairing elevators, opening different passages in a map, etc.

THIS! MAKE THIS A THING!

 

 

This would require me to actually have, like, a factory level of sorts...

 

We will see what happens around April, that's when I anticipate having more time for another project.

[SarahNautili]

I'd honestly love to see more objective based maps like Seamist. Maybe even with side objectives to allow the attackers to buy more time, at the risk of wasting too much time if they fail to complete them quickly enough.

 

Honestly, something based on the RA underground facility missions would be p.awesome.

[gammae102]

Honestly, something based on the RA underground facility missions would be p.awesome.

You know, I actually mapped out on graph paper the Allied mission where you have to capture the Missile Silo or whatever it was with the intention of trying to learn mapping and maybe make some kind of death match map for it. The hope was that my lack of skill at map-making could be made up by the abundance of right angles. Realistically it's not anything I would have the time to even attempt to do any time soon, but if anyone did want to work on it I could try and find the blueprint I made of the underground facility.