A Path Beyond Which old APB maps should we bring back?

[Einstein]

  On 4/19/2017 at 7:21 AM, OrangeP47 said:

I've been wanting to take a nostalgia trip for a few weeks now. Thank you Einstein-sama 

Expand  

No problem! Share it around, I'm not hiding it at all!

[OrangeP47]

  On 4/19/2017 at 7:22 AM, Einstein said:

No problem! Share it around, I'm not hiding it at all!

Expand  

Haha. Seriously though. A few weeks ago I almost made a thread asking if anyone had an archive of the old maps, but I didn't want to seem like I was begging or anything at the time, lol.

[Einstein]

I've been meaning to upload them to the forum's downloads section, but I haven't taken the time to do it yet. They would definitely be easier to find there. I'll get around to it eventually

[SarahNautili]

I still love how old apb maps, .9935 especially, had this idea of "we can make the maps big so we SHOULD make the maps big". Alpine lake and techno war's bases are the size of entire modern APB maps! 

Let's see, for votes:

Allied Assault could be an interesting reversal of the Seamist style objective. Although I imagine soviets would have a lot harder time on the defense since they don't get mechanics, but giving them access to a War Factory runs the risk of making it too easy, depending on the allied setup.

A Path Beyond because of course, why not have the namesake of the mod in? Shouldn't be too hard to make playable, especially if it's shrunk or the bases are moved inwards or both, plus how much faster everything moves in modern APB as compared to .9935

I meant to vote for Fjord but didn't for some reason but yeah I miss it. Borrow Imperial Age's ideas and give a few more crossing points across the river, especially infantry ones, and it could be really awesome

Partium... wasn't there a version of that in development early in Gamma's development cycle? What happened to it? Anyway, it'd desperately need a massive overhaul and a few more attack routes, imo. 

I miss TWT and Volcano

I voted for technowars not for technowars itself but I dunno I think it'd be cool to have a few more maps where units behave differently than expected, since I really love the lunar map

[SarahNautili]

Joke answer: Firewood Forest and Fullout. An infantry only map with missile silos and an air and vehicle map with no barracks both sound like they won't be problematic at all, nope. 

[OrangeP47]

I've had some time to play with the old stuff. I must say... I'm glad we have Delta now... nostalgia is fun but damn were those old maps clunky...

That said, can I vote *against a map? I'd managed to erase NorthByNorthwest from my memory, and now I remember I hate it with a burning passion. For some reason I always played very very poorly on that map, got lost in the snow (despite earlier saying I liked the snow maps), always lost, etc.

[NodGuy]

I couldn't help myself, so I voted for every map. 

[des1206]

  On 4/19/2017 at 5:51 PM, SarahNautili said:

Joke answer: Firewood Forest and Fullout. An infantry only map with missile silos and an air and vehicle map with no barracks both sound like they won't be problematic at all, nope. 

Expand  

 

I would actually like to see interesting maps like this. Wasn't there also one where there was a bunker that Soviets had to defend from Allies?

[Pushwall]

  On 4/19/2017 at 6:19 PM, OrangeP47 said:

 got lost in the snow (despite earlier saying I liked the snow maps), always lost, etc.

Expand  

That's why we now have the "house" radar markers that tell you the direction of the Allied/Soviet bases.

[OrangeP47]

  On 4/19/2017 at 11:33 PM, Pushwall said:

That's why we now have the "house" radar markers that tell you the direction of the Allied/Soviet bases.

Expand  

Fair enough. I still think that was a boring map though.

[Raptor29aa]

Suggestions:

The Woods Today: add neutral oil pumps

Allied Assault: add supply truck spawns for split bases

CamosCrossing: bigger ore patch and more cover for bases (maybe ore trucks neutral and respawning upon death)

Volcano: pools of lava for boundaries and forget grass make the ground scorched earth

Bunkers: add a few defenses or better in-base defensive cover.  (remove Radar Jammer)

ShallowGrave: expand lake in order to narrow the land side routes and increase naval role.

Metro: needs neutral building maybe oil derrick? And maybe minimal base defenses. (both lessen silo rush importance)

Glacier: add aircraft, but low flight ceiling? -OR- neutral buildings to capture.

NorthByNorthwest: add a couple of neutral somethings or anything, I often got lost because everything was white and nothing stood out.

AlpineLake: remove refinery add silos and oil pumps   and neutral SDs and cannons (main issue was defense camping and early rushes)

Partium: add silos

A Path Beyond: (infantry sprint, better AA RPGs, and faster vehicle speeds since .9935 make the distance in this map no issue) maybe remove some trees it had a lot.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Raptor29aa

[TeamWolf]

APB or that "other" Urban map

[Chaos_Knight]

Alright, let's get stuff in order.

Code:
Red - Eh, I'd say no.
Yellow - I don't know the map or don't really mind either way.
Green - Yeah, that could be nice to update and bring back.
Blue - Why isn't it in already to begin with? Mostly applies to maps which were already updated for Gamma.

- AlliedAssault
Never really got to play it.

- AlpineLake
I remember it mostly as not very enjoyable in general. Probably because it felt like Shallow but without the naval fun.

- APathBeyond
It was too big, too open and kinda bland. Then again, it's the title drop of the game.

- Bunkers
Now that I remember was pretty fun. Idk why it was removed in the first place.

- CamosCrossing
PTSD simulator for Beta people. Yeah, let's not.

- Fjord
Again, that was a fun map but with different unit balance back in the day. Nowadays it could be interesting to see it return. 1 more route across the water could help some issues it had.

- Glacier (Metalfej version) 
Hm, it needed more infantry access to the top area and probably more props up there. At least add some more rocks and pieces of ice or something.

- IvoryWastelands(?)
Wasn't that map also made/fixed for Gamma already? I remember testing it I think. Nothing too special but having options is nice, esp. if it's not too much work.

- Metro
Fun small map, unique in it's urban setting. Phases and mammies didn't really fit it though.

- NorthByNorthWest
Another pretty fun map with a holy floating rainbow tree.

- Partium
Never really got to play it.

- ShallowGrave
With Navy back in force, I'd love to see it back tbh. Maybe add an ore silo or something.

- TechnoWars
Never really got to play it.

- TheWoodsToday
Ah yes, the nukes central. Could be pretty fun with the new buildings also.

- Volcano
Also known as Baldcano when all the props disappeared for an update or so. Still a fun map.

[Pushwall]

  On 4/20/2017 at 10:50 AM, Chaos_Knight said:

Blue - Why isn't it in already to begin with?

Expand  

Because while I could just export the Gamma source file as is, not have to do any more work than just tweaking the pathfinding to work with the new OT, and then call it a day, they would look extremely out of place visually among the other maps, they'd have slideshow performance because of a lack of VIS combined with horrible optimisation issues in the Gamma w3d/max files, and changes brought about by Delta would introduce some gameplay issues (using Bunkers as an example: looking at the current source and creating a 350m sphere around the radar domes, I am pretty sure that MRJs would literally be able to jam from within their own base. Without needing an occupant.) Plus I'm still really not a fan of the pre-Delta philosophy quite a few maps had where bases (particularly Soviet ones) had a ton of open space on all sides making the "LT swarm circle around the edge of the base and never get hit" strat too easy and making it too hard for infantry to sneak around.

Before we moved here there was also a stigma around reviving Aircraftkiller's stuff, which we don't have to be weighed down by anymore. I still went ahead with the "from scratch" River Raid remake anyway because it was half-done at that point and I was still challenging myself to make a proper map from scratch. Something I may never do again because holy crap that takes forever. Lunar Paradox is basically a heightmap so that doesn't count.

I wasn't about to delay Delta's initial release by another 6 months just to get all the old favourites up to spec and fix their problems; 16 or so maps was enough for the initial release so we've been slowly reintroducing the rest afterwards. Since the initial release, the map editing process has been somewhat streamlined and I'm less clumsy with max now, so some of these big picks might actually not take too long.

[Chaos_Knight]

  On 4/20/2017 at 11:12 AM, Pushwall said:

they'd have slideshow performance because of a lack of VIS combined with horrible optimisation issues in the Gamma w3d/max filesactually not take too long.

Expand  

I know for a fact that at very least NBNW had VIS set up. Prob. several others as well because VIS issues were actually reported (and supposedly fixed) back in the day those maps were present. I just remember NBNW ones the best because ironing out ninja popping up trees took some time and effort.

As far as philosophy goes - that's a far more complex thing that you make it look. I can't type it all down right now, but in short LTs hanging about was only an issue sometimes at the beginning of the game. And only if soviets didn't think of actually repairing their stuff. Open areas with decent visibility is also what set APB apart from the more "corridor" gameplay Renegade had back in the day.

[Pushwall]

  On 4/20/2017 at 11:37 AM, Chaos_Knight said:

I know for a fact that at very least NBNW had VIS set up.

Expand  

Yep. It was still one of the worst performing maps though. Another issue with NBNW in particular, was that the level file that previously existed for it in the Delta SVN back at BHP was really bare bones; presumably CJ or whoever had just made a level from scratch, applied the NBNW terrain and called it a day - there were no trees, no walls, no VIS data, and the only "additions" compared to the original was a semi-circle of hedgehogs around the back of each service depot (so presumably he had the same idea of "push the map boundaries inwards, make LT rush less OP" as I did for Pipeline and RidgeWar). So the VIS and clutter would have had to be redone anyway even if we decided to include it back then. NBNW was the only Gamma map I can remember having a weird Delta pre-release LE file like that, but nowadays it doesn't matter as almost all the content for maps is now placed in the terrain file so I just make LE files from scratch instead of using the old ones and don't have to add much to make them work (besides VIS generation which takes an age).

[OrangeP47]

Which map was it that was just the refinery and barracks with not OT AI that had be driven manually?

[Einstein]

That would be CamosCrossing. It seems that nearly everyone but me hated that map

Just remembered something else.....Hourglass anyone? I remember it had some issues that needed to be solved, but it was a gamma map so it would probably be easier than some to bring back.

[OrangeP47]

  On 4/20/2017 at 8:22 PM, Einstein said:

That would be CamosCrossing. It seems that nearly everyone but me hated that map

Just remembered something else.....Hourglass anyone? I remember it had some issues that needed to be solved, but it was a gamma map so it would probably be easier than some to bring back.

Expand  

Yeah I was getting the name confused with with the one that has bots now.

It seems I'm always destined to like the ones that nobody else did. In Beta my favorite map was Stormy Valley, after all

On Hourglass:  I checked it out in the archive. I don't think I ever played APB on it, but it looks viable IMO.

[Raap]

  On 4/20/2017 at 8:22 PM, Einstein said:

That would be CamosCrossing. It seems that nearly everyone but me hated that map

Just remembered something else.....Hourglass anyone? I remember it had some issues that needed to be solved, but it was a gamma map so it would probably be easier than some to bring back.

Expand  

Fabians Hourglass art style didn't fit very well with the general style of APB. Plus, like in Renegade, the map suffered from artillery camping from the huge central hill. The map would have to literally be flattened and then extended in length to solve that, as well as re-textured in APB style. Disabling air power would make a lot of sense as well.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Raap

[Invader_Zim]

HA, I was just thinking about volcano and was hoping for more maps on delta, speaking of volcano if you have a good soviet team then you can defend the early LT rush out of the maps I miss Fjord and Volcano and The Woods Today the most!!!!! 

[Einstein]

  On 4/20/2017 at 11:48 PM, Invader_Zim said:

HA, I was just thinking about volcano and was hoping for more maps on delta, speaking of volcano if you have a good soviet team then you can defend the early LT rush out of the maps I miss Fjord and Volcano and The Woods Today the most!!!!! 

Expand  

Spoken like a true beta player

[Raap]

  On 4/19/2017 at 5:51 PM, SarahNautili said:

Joke answer: Firewood Forest (...) 

Expand  

I missed this, and I know you made a joke, but as the author of several of such .993x maps, for the well-being of everyone else, I will not approve of such asset resurrection. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Raap

[SarahNautili]

  On 4/21/2017 at 7:39 PM, Raap said:

I missed this, and I know you made a joke, but as the author of several of such .993x maps, for the well-being of everyone else, I will not approve of such asset resurrection. 

Expand  

the sad thing is, I think out of all your .9935 maps, firewood forest had one of the best.... themes? decorations? the volcano in the background is pretty neat, and it blows volcano out of the water for *actually having a volcano* but... yeah the map itself is pretty generic trash

[SarahNautili]

Like honestly I legit think a volcano map with an actually erupting volcano could be pretty damn neat. Grab some ideas from Renegade's volcano... and maybe 8-Bit Armies' volcano map? Have some rivers of lava running across a map that shred infantry and armorless vehicles that drive through them, but armored vehicles can survive crossing if they do it quick, with a few landbridges and shit to allow unarmored vehicles and infantry safe passage, might be a pretty interesting thing to do. Also a pain in the ass and likely not worth the time investment, but eh

[Einstein]

I actually liked most of Raap's old maps, firewood forest included for reasons mentioned above. It would likely need to be done from scratch though

[Raap]

Some things are best left in the past, my old maps being some of such things. HostileWaters was the most salvageable and that is now in need of a second overhaul.  

[ganein14]

I think HW is fine outside of the objective being a little too hard.

[Einstein]

  On 4/21/2017 at 10:04 PM, Raap said:

Some things are best left in the past, my old maps being some of such things. HostileWaters was the most salvageable and that is now in need of a second overhaul.  

Expand  

I sense that you hold your own creations in too low esteem. I'll leave it at that

[OrangeP47]

  On 4/21/2017 at 8:27 PM, SarahNautili said:

the sad thing is, I think out of all your .9935 maps, firewood forest had one of the best.... themes? decorations? the volcano in the background is pretty neat, and it blows volcano out of the water for *actually having a volcano* but... yeah the map itself is pretty generic trash

Expand  

I spent probably two hours on LAN one day trying to find the volcano on volcano back in the day

 

  On 4/21/2017 at 8:38 PM, SarahNautili said:

Like honestly I legit think a volcano map with an actually erupting volcano could be pretty damn neat. Grab some ideas from Renegade's volcano... and maybe 8-Bit Armies' volcano map? Have some rivers of lava running across a map that shred infantry and armorless vehicles that drive through them, but armored vehicles can survive crossing if they do it quick, with a few landbridges and shit to allow unarmored vehicles and infantry safe passage, might be a pretty interesting thing to do. Also a pain in the ass and likely not worth the time investment, but eh

Expand  

Doesn't one of Reborn's maps have a tiberium volcano or something? The one with the broke dam, I've not played Reborn more than cursory looks at the maps so I'm not really sure.