A Path Beyond Remove rooftop access from buildings?

[FRAYDO]

While it's possible, we then refer back to this

20 hours ago, Pushwall said:

Is there a reasonable way to communicate to players that that's the case so we don't end up with an eternity of "wuuuuuuuut I can't place flares here? that's dumb. for what reason? it's visible from the sky, why can't the missile silo targeting see it?"

and if we're automatically disabling flares without prior warning or clear indication otherwise, we then have either enraged or confused players

[gammae102]

So really, this is only an issue for a few buildings.  It appears to be the consensus that the Naval Yard/Subpen/Barracks are not really an issue on this topic.  This leaves the War Factory, Ore Refinery, Construction Yard, and Power Plant.

The Ore Refinery, to me at least, would seem to be the biggest problem because it is present on almost every map and is one of the higher roofs.  I think a good solution might be to restrict rooftop access to only the flat part above the area where the ore truck dumps.  This limits the number of places the flare could be placed and would leave attacking infantry with less places to hide.  The Ore Refinery is probably the structure with the most nooks and crannies, so as it currently is, it sometimes takes me a good 10 seconds just to figure out if the flare is inside the refinery or on the roof, so this would limit the number of places the flare could be.

With regards to the War Factory, I like Raap's idea of adding MORE ladders. It would make it more difficult for enemy infantry to camp, and as Pushwall has said, a ramp may be feasible with the dimensions on this building.

The Construction Yard is not on any flare maps, to my knowledge, so i would likely be less of an issue, but perhaps like with the Ore Refinery infantry access could be curtailed to the flat part of the roof.

The Power Plant is probably the building with the most empty space inside, so I think that this would be a good candidate for internal rooftop access, either in the form of elevators, ladders, or both.  As mentioned previously, these could secured by team-locked doors if deemed necessary.

[Einstein]

New idea.

May or may not be possible, but I suspect it is.

Flares placed on rooftops take twice as long to deploy, twice as long for the nuke to actually hit, and disarm in half the normal time.

Boom.

[Pushwall]

Just now, Einstein said:

New idea.

May or may not be possible, but I suspect it is.

Flares placed on rooftops take twice as long to deploy, twice as long for the nuke to actually hit, and disarm in half the normal time.

Boom.

Nope, or if it is possible, then far too much work.

[Einstein]

Just now, Pushwall said:

Nope, or if it is possible, then far too much work.

Can we have a "time to impact" countdown then? Kinda like the superweapon timers in RA. I'm willing to compromise here

[ChopBam]

100% solution for spy flares: attack dog bots on the roofs.

[ChopBam]

But srsly, what about my short range security gun idea?

[Pushwall]

Security guns would pretty much be the same thing as not letting enemies on roofs at all, and I think the poll is indicative of how that would go down. Only difference is it'd take more effort than the other methods and look more out of place.

[Raptor29aa]

Apperantly, the most complaints are about the refinery. I have a solution... one more ladder? 

I think the discussion  is two  parted.

A) accessibly... as in do you have to walk around the building to get to a ladder? how many ladders are there?

B) offensive potential... can the attacker be hit from the ground? Is there cover on the roof? Can the attacker move to the ladders faster than you can? Is the terrain flat or slanted?

For example power plant on zama: four ladders. Attacker can be hit from the ground by either flame or phase tank (no complaints here).

 

[Raap]

Crazypersonthoughts: Create a modular rampart/bridge set that connects the various building roofs, with gatehouse hubs in various places that contain team-locked gates? Yes, it might look silly, but then again, some silly ideas occasionally have the best gameplay pay-off. 

Randomly google'd images:

 

[Einstein]

31 minutes ago, Raap said:

Crazypersonthoughts: Create a modular rampart/bridge set that connects the various building roofs, with gatehouse hubs in various places that contain team-locked gates? Yes, it might look silly, but then again, some silly ideas occasionally have the best gameplay pay-off.

You made treetop jungle right?

This may indeed look silly but it actually sounds kinda cool.

[Raptor29aa]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

You made treetop jungle right?

This may indeed look silly but it actually sounds kinda cool.

Treetop jungle made me like I was in Star Wars on Kashyyyk and I was thinking where’s the Wookiees. Treetop jungle would’ve been away better if it had more rampart/bridges. 

Sorry for the nonsequitor nostalgia  

[SarahNautili]

I could see skybridges being pretty awkward, especially on helicopter maps (another complication for low flying helicopters defending their base, potentially blocking shots against enemy helicopters)

 

Plus, only a couple maps I can think of where the large buildings are close enough together for it to work? like, I don't think you could bridge the gap between the War Factory and the Refinery on Camos without it looking awkard as hell... or the soviet PP to Refinery or PP to War Factory on Zama...

[Einstein]

3 hours ago, SarahNautili said:

I could see skybridges being pretty awkward

Yeah it would definitely have to be a not-every-map thing, kinda like tunnels. Only where it actually works (if at all).

[KevinLancaster]

Maybe construction scaffolding / fire escape type staircases on the sides of buildings, so you aren't just shot off when you reach the top of the ladder?

 

[SarahNautili]

16 minutes ago, KevinLancaster said:

Maybe construction scaffolding / fire escape type staircases on the sides of buildings, so you aren't just shot off when you reach the top of the ladder?

 

On 2/5/2018 at 10:41 AM, Pushwall said:

I said it in discord in response to Sarah's ramp suggestion and forgot to bring it here - squaredancing your way up/down a fire escape would be hell for anyone with non-euro ping, and possibly still so for some people in that area. Unless it's large enough that would be less of a problem but then that comes with aesthetic issues. Back when I was adding the Soviet cliff ladder on RidgeWar, I originally intended for it to be a spiral/square ramp/staircase but cut it in favour of a ladder because of both these issues. Straight ramps or staircases (with enough room to strafe side to side) might possibly work for the War Factory due to its width/length compared to its height, but a fire escape that you constantly have to change direction on... not so much.

 

[KevinLancaster]

The aesthetic issue could be reduced if you had a straight staircase that was rather steep, but that might make them unclimbable. For taller buildings perhaps the stairs could go to a secondary level surface before there being another set rather than straight to the roof.

Edited February 13, 2018 by KevinLancaster

[Pushwall]

So, going for the easiest one first. The Refinery.

Anyone who was around for the Delta prerelease in 2015 back when the refinery did have an internal rooftop access, may remember the ladder being propped up against the wall instead. Couldn't really do that here because back then, that route also had no door - a big part of why this route got taken out was because the lack of a door meant that any old Tanya/Thief pleb could let their longbow get shot down by SAMs while hovering over the Refinery and get in without worrying about mines, and meant Soviets had to mine the ladder too (extra time wasted + less freedom to employ forward mines under the mine limit). LB entry was especially overpowered with thieves since unlike Tanya they don't have to wait 30 seconds to get results. Now anyone wishing to employ those same tactics will need the assistance of a spy to open the way for them - hey look, some more potential useful stuff for spies to do!

Anyway, adding the door here means that if the ladder was in its original position, people wouldn't have anywhere to stand when they get off the ladder and so would get stuck in the door. Hence the extra walkway. Couldn't have the usual "double door" either otherwise then the walkway would cut into the nearby pipe.

The room will be textured a bit later

[Pushwall]

Actually, just had a better idea. One that puts the door in a more precarious position for the roof camper (risk of falling off) and doesn't force rooftop combatants to constantly walk past the door zone which'd make it too easy for Soviets on the roof to unwittingly let enemies in. All that really needs changing as a result is the snow roof mesh.

[Killing_You]

Randomly remembered I was supposed to draw up some concepts a while ago.  And since we're discussing this publicly, might as well put them here. It'd be better for feedback anyway.

Alright, so, I figured the best solution would be a maintenance elevator of some kind. That way we can take some liberties with the fine details without affecting the shape of each structure too much. Specifically, remember this thing from the Renegade campaign?

Same principle, basically. Visually, it's simply guard rails, an elevator, and a hatch. The reason why I felt this approach would be acceptable is because an elevator is easy to integrate into the two designs. And I know that people had trouble in the past, but that doesn't seem to happen with the Missile Silo and Airfield. My guess is that it has to do with the three walls and door that keep you from lagwarping too far. 

[Pushwall]

5 hours ago, Killing_You said:

Same principle, basically. Visually, it's simply guard rails, an elevator, and a hatch. The reason why I felt this approach would be acceptable is because an elevator is easy to integrate into the two designs. And I know that people had trouble in the past, but that doesn't seem to happen with the Missile Silo and Airfield. My guess is that it has to do with the three walls and door that keep you from lagwarping too far. 

The layout of the Silo/Airfield elevator - particularly the walls as mentioned - makes it pretty much impossible to jam them by getting your skull stuck against the ceiling of the room and whatnot. You can still do it with the CY elevator sadly but at least that has a ramp down to the basement now, plus the shape of the area means that someone who jams the elevator doesn't also get permanently stuck - a prominent problem with the old Naval Yard/Sub Pen elevators.

I'm a bit anxious about elevator roof access because a pretty big problem with the old Refinery elevator was that it was pretty easy to fill the elevator shaft with flamethrower/kov napalm or headshot people who are on the way up, killing them before they can even get off. Not as easy as headshotting someone climbing up a 15 metre ladder, but still. For the Power Plant it'd be relatively easy to have the elevator take someone up to an internal walkway which then leads to a locked door which solves that kind of camping, but for the CY/WF it's a bit different.

[Killing_You]

7 minutes ago, Pushwall said:

The layout of the Silo/Airfield elevator - particularly the walls as mentioned - makes it pretty much impossible to jam them by getting your skull stuck against the ceiling of the room and whatnot. You can still do it with the CY elevator sadly but at least that has a ramp down to the basement now.

Indeed, and that's why I tried to integrate those aspects into my (shittily drawn) concepts.

7 minutes ago, Pushwall said:

I'm a bit anxious about elevator roof access because a pretty big problem with the old Refinery elevator was that it was pretty easy to fill the elevator shaft with flamethrower/kov napalm or headshot people who are on the way up, killing them before they can even get off. Not as easy as headshotting someone climbing up a 15 metre ladder, but still. For the Power Plant it'd be relatively easy to have the elevator take someone up to an internal walkway which then leads to a locked door which solves that kind of camping, but for the CY/WF it's a bit different.

Did the old refinery have a hatch as well?

Edited February 16, 2018 by Killing_You

[Pushwall]

55 minutes ago, Killing_You said:

Indeed, and that's why I tried to integrate those aspects into my (shittily drawn) concepts.

Did the old refinery have a hatch as well?

Yes. Frankly I think it helped warn campers that infantry were on their way up more than it made it harder for campers to pelt them with bullets/napalm. Which would be a bigger concern in Delta where the hatch would circumvent the radar stealth of the person coming up. But obviously a hatch can't be avoided for a rooftop access elevator...

[Pushwall]

Power Plant now has elevators to the roof, one on each end for extra camping difficulty.

And no you can't jump out of the elevator midway down to go plant a flare on top of those electronics

WF will be the next target, that's more of a priority since the CY appears on less maps and zero nuke maps.

[Pushwall]

The problem with the WF though, is these access elevators can't be anywhere near routes people have to take while doing normal routines around the building or we get issues.

If there's just a fenced-in hole in the roof like in KY's examples, all a Tanya needs to do to circumvent the locked gate is to eject a longbow over that hole and fall into the building (remember that landing on an elevator negates fall damage because renegade). So that's a no.

If there's a locked trapdoor instead, if someone takes the elevator up to the roof and then leaves it as is, a Tanya who falls onto a roof can just squat on the raised elevator until someone indoors inadvertently triggers it to descend. Which may be fine if the elevator's in a place where Soviets have to go out of their way to trigger it, so it'll usually only happen when they're prepared to deal with a rooftop threat - not when it's taking up half of the upper WF walkway, which in addition to funneling traffic will also always be triggered by everyone who walks past to try to repair the MCT or even happens to spawn at the left PCT, even if they don't want to trigger it. Compare with the new Ref/PP doors - the building's own team will never be in range to trigger those doors, which a Tanya may be hiding on the other side of, unless they are trying to reach the roof.

There's not really anywhere in the WF that's out of the way, except places in the back of the ground floor that would look silly with elevators going straight to the roof (plus they'd mean I'd have to mess with the variable prop files too). So for the WF I may just add a third ladder instead.

[OWA]

Just to jump in on the flare discussion. If flares get disabled from being placed on rooftops, can't we just play the "Cannot deploy here" sound to communicate to players that they can't deploy the flare there?

If players think it's dumb, then they are welcome to come and complain here, where we will be waiting to provide answers.

[Pushwall]

2 hours ago, OWA said:

Just to jump in on the flare discussion. If flares get disabled from being placed on rooftops, can't we just play the "Cannot deploy here" sound to communicate to players that they can't deploy the flare there?

If you want to revive Battlelaf from the dead so he can record that...

[Killing_You]

6 hours ago, Pushwall said:

The problem with the WF though, is these access elevators can't be anywhere near routes people have to take while doing normal routines around the building or we get issues.

Honestly the War Factory could use a redesign. I know, we don't have the manpower to do that right now, but if we did, that building would need it the most. I've never liked the layout to begin with, honestly, though.

6 hours ago, Pushwall said:

If there's just a fenced-in hole in the roof like in KY's examples, all a Tanya needs to do to circumvent the locked gate is to eject a longbow over that hole and fall into the building (remember that landing on an elevator negates fall damage because renegade). So that's a no.

If there's a locked trapdoor instead, if someone takes the elevator up to the roof and then leaves it as is, a Tanya who falls onto a roof can just squat on the raised elevator until someone indoors inadvertently triggers it to descend. Which may be fine if the elevator's in a place where Soviets have to go out of their way to trigger it, so it'll usually only happen when they're prepared to deal with a rooftop threat - not when it's taking up half of the upper WF walkway, which in addition to funneling traffic will also always be triggered by everyone who walks past to try to repair the MCT or even happens to spawn at the left PCT, even if they don't want to trigger it. Compare with the new Ref/PP doors - the building's own team will never be in range to trigger those doors, which a Tanya may be hiding on the other side of, unless they are trying to reach the roof.

Actually, my examples included both a trapdoor and a fence for basically that reason. You could even put a canopy over the elevator to prevent Tanyas ejecting onto the elevator. I do see your point about the upper walkway, though.

 

[Pushwall]

8 minutes ago, Killing_You said:

Honestly the War Factory could use a redesign. I know, we don't have the manpower to do that right now, but if we did, that building would need it the most. I've never liked the layout to begin with, honestly, though.

I second that. I still have cuddling's old war factory hanging around but not only is it hella unfinished and with a basement that's far too complex, but the foundation footprint is waaaay different to the current one, it's like 70m wide whereas the current one is 40m.

e: actually there's another version hanging around by him that has a smaller foundation than the current one if you can imagine that, around 35/35. Like the current one isn't cramped enough already.

8 minutes ago, Killing_You said:

You could even put a canopy over the elevator to prevent Tanyas ejecting onto the elevator.

At that point we might as well just do the Airfield thing and have a door on the roof, an elevator with a canopy would stick out just as much.

[Killing_You]

19 minutes ago, Pushwall said:

At that point we might as well just do the Airfield thing and have a door on the roof, an elevator with a canopy would stick out just as much.

For the sake of gameplay, I think we can be okay with this.