A public request for feedback on infantry balancing

[GeneralCamo]

Updated the changelog at the top.

 

The feedback we gained so far is very useful. I am considering opening another thread for vehicles (or just hijacking this one). But our plans for vehicles have not been finished yet, so this won't happen now.

[Wallywood]

Thank you everyone for your feed back. I will be reviewing these posts and I will come up with a few happy mediums to some of these issues.

[Bayonetta]

 

Cyborgs - classic need be slowest reduce move speed(not tu much)(this will able more easily aim for GDI) because they have heavy metal on self and they are much heavy.And they need accuracy(they really need accuracy nerf) like officier on Arm gattlng with regen im sure with you Gene.on Vet they need really reduced damage on buildings with cannon (i play very loot with cyborgs) and need nerf regen

 

Rocket Trooper - please add pistol

 

Disc Thower - please add pistol buffs ok

 

Umagon - C4 please add splash damage and damage vs cyborgs

 

Engineer - dont have on Elite rank weapon for repair vehicles - tested Nod engineer

 

Pistol Nod/GDI - 1 damage vehicles please now have 0 damage

 

Can you add granades for classic Infantry with small damage but good vs vehicles its really boring killing vehicles with rifles only

 

Idea - Conffesors can you add AT Mines ? GDI have Emp Mines why Nod have nothing? AT mines will be good vs GDI rushes,and when GDI destroy Nod War Factory

1. Accuracy nerf could work wonders. Not convinced/don't know that much about the other points.
2. Rocket trooper is ok for 200 money.
3. Again, unit proportional to its price.
4. Good idea.
5. Can't comment.
6. Little damage against vehicles wouldn't hurt.
7. I don't know. Cadre does that and is op.
8. Nod has stealth and underground, GDI has mines and jumpjets. I think it's fair balance-wise.

 

1. The cyborg and Riot trooper relatioonship is messed up . The Riot trooper seems at first glance the best counter to cyborgs but in real life they suck . This should be changed enonomics of the characters need to be changed as at the moment the cyborg is the better unit in cost and preformence . This needs should be changed so that GDI can place it's EMP mines down earlier to help counter cyborgs or atleast make them equal cost .

If you made cyborg cost more than Riot trooper this would allow GDI to place mines out sooner to help counter cyborgs at their base however in smaller maps such as beachfront this can be highly unbalanced as cyborgs would become useless as a massive mine feild would be present by the time Nod gets them .

So I sujest you make them equal price to niether team is directly advantaged . The davantage goes to the team to can capatalize on these infantry tiypes earlier , which sould make the game play more interesting .

 

2. Umagon's weapon needs balancing / fixing so at the moment her rifel to too powerful as if you spam click it becomes automatic . I sugest reducing clip size to 7 , reduce attack speed but increase damage .

 

3. CC needs a buff the is no where near as good as GS as good Gs player always wins where as a CC should win . I say reduce the attack speed and increase damage , give it a large area of effect explosion , reduced velocity . So it resembles TSR more .

 

4. Increase the health of the hijacker as he is useless at everything but stelling vechiles . Give him a stealth cloak like the spy but it only lasts 7 or 9 second at a time to he can be more seaky and a more fun character to play as . Tiberium Uzi pls if you removed it haven't played as one in a long time because he's useless .

 

5. Idea not realy a sugestion , give the spy a device that he can throw on vechiles to reveal them to all Nod force without being destealthed .

1. I address a similar point in the next paragraph.
2. Umagon is strong, as she should be. She's designated anti-infantry. Her full vet may be a little too strong, I admit.
3. CC already had a RoF decrease. I suggest pumping it back up a little.
4. I'm okay with this.
5. ???

 

Medic shouldn't be changed, he's fine the way he is. Not being able to heal other medics is going to hamper teamwork between medics and make him worse. The only thing the medic needs is better self healing, which sucks even when fully promoted. Also when someone is getting healed can we have a bunch of Healing crosses around them.

 

Basic Light infantry shouldn't be allowed to damage MK:II (This mostly applies to Nod) We're talking about a Super Heavy Armored walker. The bullets probably wouldn't be able to penetrate it. And it prevents people from spamming light infantry to prevent the self healing from kicking into effect.

 

- Cyborgs need nerfing, Then again if Disk throwers are getting buffed then i don't see them being as huge of a problem, because right now GDI have no counter to them.

 

- Pistol feels too strong right now, Rather then making it not Hit scan just Nerf the damn thing already.

 

Riot Trooper mine limit should be per person not the entire team. There's been so many occasions where i needed a EMP mine and i couldn't because all of the mines were already placed by someone in front of a gate. I'd Rather have it so each person can deploy 3 mines each. And the mine limit be tied to each person.

1. I don't think anyone ever saw what I saw on freezeover. 20 people in the game, 10 per side, GDI wins. Entire Nod team of Cyborgs deployed on the tiberium field, incapable of killing a single GDI for the last 5 minutes of the game. Why? GDI had 3 medics, a ghost stalker and a platoon of officers. Literally immortal. Been there, on Nod. If i can't kill a single person for so long as a vet 2 cyborg, i don't think anyone can.
2. Basic Light Infantry is meant to be a weak, but all-round unit. You don't want to be useless when your money runs out, do you?
3. Pistol is ok. If you can't kill a pistol-wielder with an assault rifle or an officer weapon, the problem lies on your side, not the weapon's.
4. I think refillable mines should make a come-back. They're not as op as we were lead to believe, especially now that Nod is stronger than ever. 700 money for 8 mines, plus a mine limit, is not that efficient.

 

 

1. A once in 20 game scenario with a bunch of medics healing like they are designed to compared to the ENTIRE Nod team game after game being cyborgs and camping tib fields doesn't compare Besides, you can just get a bunch of spies and knife the Medics. Cyborgs are very hard to kill because GDI doesn't have a solid counter to them right now.

2 You're telling me a bunch of infantry with light rifles should be allowed to withstand against a MK:II? and pretty much counter it? you literally can't heal the MK:II if you have 1 little dude shooting at you. Like i said if you've lost all your buildings to the point of only being able to afford a Light infantry then you deserve to be stomped on, not the other way around.

3. Pistol is not okay, it's not balanced that the pistol can go toe to toe with heavy infantry with weapons designed to take out other infantry. It hasn't been balanced for quite a while now due to the damage.

4. Well any solution is better then it was. If they were to be changed to refillable, then i think the time it takes to disarm them or the stun time should be reduced, so then GDI can't turtle with endless mines.

 

Everything said, i'm not against medic changes. So long as he can still be a good medic and heal effectively. And the only two things that come off as being wank and in need of asap fixing is The Disk thrower being crap, and the Cyborg being OP.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Bayonetta

[GeneralCamo]

Several things have changed:

 

The enforcer is now in our private builds. He is currently using placeholder assets however as this unit is still up for heavy debate.

Wallywood decided to try to make the confessor's elite weapon set to LASER instead of ROCKET afterall.

Medics can no longer heal other medics and now give a healing aura instead of actual healing. In exchange however, they heal more health, their regen was doubled, and regen does not stop during a fight.

Automatic Rifles are now more accurate

Technicians now have a repair gun always. At elite, it is upgraded to be able to repair vehicles.

Binoculars were removed from Officers. They will stay for Jumpjets and Chameleon Spies

Spy Throwing Knives were increased in range. They now have equivalent range to an SMG.

Pistol was slightly nerfed in accuracy. It now has the same accuracy as the rifle (pre-buff). It also has 1 less damage.

[Voe]

Light Infantry countering mk2? You're telling me you can't handle rifles with your mk2? I think you might be doing something wrong.

 

Pistol is a skill weapon. Doesn't deal damage on body shots, only its accuracy and headshots make it viable. Take away accuracy, and it's useless.

[Bayonetta]

Light Infantry countering mk2? You're telling me you can't handle rifles with your mk2? I think you might be doing something wrong.

 

Pistol is a skill weapon. Doesn't deal damage on body shots, only its accuracy and headshots make it viable. Take away accuracy, and it's useless.

 

No, the pistol is a self defense weapon, when you start seeing engineers in the front lines specifically to kill people with the pistol then you knows it too strong.

[Killing_You]

Or maybe the person wants to use a pistol for some reason. Keep in mind that it is currently useless against vehicles and buildings, and generally pales in comparison to other weapons as far as anti infantry. To use one effectively in combat is a true show of skill, and if you take away it's ability to be used effectively then you might as well disarm Techies and Engineers.

[Bayonetta]

Or maybe the person wants to use a pistol for some reason. Keep in mind that it is currently useless against vehicles and buildings, and generally pales in comparison to other weapons as far as anti infantry. To use one effectively in combat is a true show of skill, and if you take away it's ability to be used effectively then you might as well disarm Techies and Engineers.

 

Like i said, it's not a skill weapon, nor is it designed to be. If you're using the tech/engineer specifically to get good at the pistol then this is obviously the wrong game for you. The engineer/tech are repairers. When you pick that character your intention is supposed to repair. Not to ignore your classes duties and instead run off to the battlefield to 3 shot people with a headshot just because its a "skill" weapon. The nerf is justified spite a select few saying that its fine l2p.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Bayonetta

[Killing_You]

If I'm trying to get good with a pistol, then I'm trying to get good at every aspect of the game. Keep in mind that every character needs to be able to fight effectively, and this goes double for Engineers since they're designed to go into enemy buildings. If I'm going to do that, I'd like to have an option to defend myself as opposed to hoping that I don't get caught, or hoping that my bodyguard(s) aren't terrible. As it stands, while you can use the pistol in combat, you're ultimately better off with just about anything else. I don't want to see the pistol become completely useless just because "you're supposed to repair."

[Bayonetta]

If I'm trying to get good with a pistol, then I'm trying to get good at every aspect of the game. Keep in mind that every character needs to be able to fight effectively, and this goes double for Engineers since they're designed to go into enemy buildings. If I'm going to do that, I'd like to have an option to defend myself as opposed to hoping that I don't get caught, or hoping that my bodyguard(s) aren't terrible. As it stands, while you can use the pistol in combat, you're ultimately better off with just about anything else. I don't want to see the pistol become completely useless just because "you're supposed to repair."

 

But right now that isn't the case because i see people popping off confessors and other heavy infantry with a pistol. Like i said, if you're not inside a building and instead off in the field attacking with the pistol. Then you're just abusing the fact its OP right now and are disregarding that.

[Nodlied]

Sorry if I interrupt here, but if people are capable of popping Confessors using a pistol then they'd do it even faster when using a standard rifle.

[Bayonetta]

Sorry if I interrupt here, but if people are capable of popping Confessors using a pistol then they'd do it even faster when using a standard rifle.

 

Not really.

[Killing_You]

Actually, they can. The rifle has superior damage, superior magazine size, and superior rate of fire.

 

In any case, if the pistol truly was OP, then anyone and their mother could gun down everything in their path. As it stands, it's possible to use it against high tier infantry, but it's not practical when your options are considered.

[Eternity 6]

 

Sorry if I interrupt here, but if people are capable of popping Confessors using a pistol then they'd do it even faster when using a standard rifle.

 

Not really.

 

Do you aim for the head with the rifle ? If you do the rifle should win .

[Bayonetta]

 

 

Sorry if I interrupt here, but if people are capable of popping Confessors using a pistol then they'd do it even faster when using a standard rifle.

 

Not really.

 

Do you aim for the head with the rifle ? If you do the rifle should win .

 

 

Rifle isnt hit scan nor does it do insane damage per shot

[danpaul88]

But it's DPS is far higher, enough to outweigh the handful of bullets which will miss due to spray inside pistol range.

The only nerf that might make sense for the pistol is a *slight* range reduction and perhaps lowering the RoF a touch. Removing hitscan is downright pants on head regarded... Renegade had hitscan pistols too but people didn't use them as weapon of choice since other weapons were more suitable.

[GeneralCamo]

Damage was reduced to the pistols just a hair back to their original values (pre-buff). Their accuracy was also slightly reduced. After our test game yesterday, we determined that the pistol like this is great at close range, but not so much at long range. It was decided there was absolutely no need for removal of its hitscan abilities.

 

Oh yeah, and Disk Throwers are awesome again. Just... don't stand too close when one blows up.

[Bayonetta]

Can engineers/techs disarm mines faster?

 

Also can the Cyborg commando be immune to EMP mines? The Ghost Stalker is far superior to the Cyborg commando right now. Or make it so the Cyborg commando becomes immune to EMP mines at elite rank instead of giving him a flame thrower when elite and instead give it to him from the start, then least the Cyborg commando has something useful against the ghost stalker.

 

Two infantry ideas from a different thread i'm throwing out here.

[GeneralCamo]

Mines.. we will see. The refill restriction was removed, so this may be worth looking into.

 

No. Cyborg Commando is fine. He works exactly as he did in TS.

[ShadowWarrior]

Cyborg commando sh*t vs humans

GDI Riot trooper weak vs Master Control Terminal. Not good vs anything, except people who are close. 700 credit? EMP mine?-> ok

Nod Bazooka: In many situations, unusable. Make it more expensive if you have to but make have more powerful against infantry

GDI Disc: WEAK vs humans

Stealth Tank: the last change was very bad. Physics is wrong. The vehicle slips and moves itself continuously. The shorter distance shooting was a bad idea.

 

Now these are the worst

 

Sorry, my English

I do not really speak English

Edited May 6, 2015 by moonsense715
helped your english :)

[Meyerm]

I said this in another thread, but I'll make my suggestion official:

 

Cyborg Commando emp immunity: I have yet to see a CC be as effective as ghoststalker. A GS can camp a building for 30 seconds to kill it with their C4, which usually does the job even if the GS dies before then (which is less likely to happen with medic escort), and yet the cycborg commando gets stopped if a single mine is at an entrance, and usually there's layers and multiple mines per entrance which take time for engineers to disarm. On that note, get rid of GS C4. Speed and medic support option already does the ghoststalker justice, the C4 is just overkill. Making the units as close to TS as you can doesn't do well for balancing in an fps.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Meyerm

[danpaul88]

Making the units as close to TS as you can doesn't do well for balancing in an fps.

This x1000. I've been saying it over and over again for years now, but it seems to fall on deaf ears. People are determined to bring RTS balance to an FPS without considering the massive differences in how the game styles work.

 

In an RTS you can spam 10s or even 100s of cheap units to overwhelm an OP unit. In an FPS you're limited by the number of people on your team.

 

Buildings dying in 10 seconds flat isn't a major problem in an RTS where you can just rebuild... in an FPS you need time to react and defend the base, otherwise it just turns into "rush the enemy base first to win" since the first team to organise a decent rush will probably kill a couple of buildings.

 

This also causes the odd state of affairs you have in reborn today where you almost never get battles in the field, with one side pushing forward bit by bit, since everyone avoids direct confrontation and just goes straight for the squishy buildings because they know they'll probably be able to kill a few of them before they die. There's no point whittling down the defenders because they're often harder to kill than the buildings!

[GeneralCamo]

We've discovered the reason for the cyborg commandos having problems: His DPS was WAY too low compared to ghoststalker. Both units had their DPS brought to 100 (as in Ghoststalker nerfed, Commando buffed). This may be changed, but this should equalize them.

 

 

And no, we are not trying to create this as close to the RTS as possible. Here are just some of the MANY deviations we had:

Cyborg: Does not have a second life without legs

Cyborg Commando: Same

Toxin Soldier: Is NOT a mind control unit

Chameleon Spy: Is not an RA spy (Sabotage beacon will be similar, but not exact)

Cyborg Reaper: Can net air units

Umagon: Is not a OHKO unit (Planned to return to this role when we switch to 5.0 however, but not exactly like TS)

Elite Cadre: Is available with cyborgs

 

I can name a lot more.

 

 

 

I have suggested to wallywood that we double the health of buildings. He rejected it, so this is not happening.

[danpaul88]

Not many of those are BALANCE deviations though, they're more limitations on what you can reasonably do in an FPS, or the W3D engine. Also, the reaper netting air units (specifically, jumpjets) is debatably a bug, but nobody has actually decided whether it's a good thing or not.

[moonsense715]

Not many of those are BALANCE deviations though, they're more limitations on what you can reasonably do in an FPS, or the W3D engine. Also, the reaper netting air units (specifically, jumpjets) is debatably a bug, but nobody has actually decided whether it's a good thing or not.

The reaper web isn't working too well. It was much better before the shotgun shooting style was introduced.

[danpaul88]

Not sure what that has to do with the quote, but I said at the time that it probably needs a few revisions and tweaks to get it feeling "right"

[Bayonetta]

I for one like the fact it can shoot jump jets down with the net. Makes the reaper a lot more useful cos right now it's sooo mediocre.

 

A good balance deviation is letting the Attack Bike shoot air targets (Which it could never in TS) but Nod needed a vehicle that could shoot air targets (GDI Has MRLS) IMO the Bike is balanced to perfection right now. One of my favorite vehicles

Edited May 7, 2015 by Bayonetta

[DeviousDave]

I for one like the fact it can shoot jump jets down with the net. Makes the reaper a lot more useful cos right now it's sooo mediocre.

 

A good balance deviation is letting the Attack Bike shoot air targets (Which it could never in TS) but Nod needed a vehicle that could shoot air targets (GDI Has MRLS) IMO the Bike is balanced to perfection right now. One of my favorite vehicles

 

It already can, although actually hitting air targets is a whole different matter....

[Chaos_Knight]

My 2 cents about the pistols.

Funny enough I agree with Bayonetta. No other bullet firing weapon in game is hitscan besides the pistol.

So.

1. Pistol is hitscan. ARs and MGs are not. Sniper rifles aren't (thankfully) either.

2. Pistol is perfectly accurate. ARs and MGs are not. Even snipers aren't.

3. Common sense is overrated anyway. ARs and MGs are not. Snipers are but just a bit.

[Bayonetta]

When is this patch going to be released? also can we have an updated patch note list?