Balance APB Delta patch balance discussion

[des1206]

It had the exact same health and armour type as the med in RA. Giving it more armour is just asking to make allied infantry more useless. Med's price got raised to 900 for a reason. If you want a really bullet-resistant vehicle get a mammoth, that's what they're for.

 

I just tested it out again, they do the exact same damage to armor, but the heavy does slightly more to buildings than the med. I guess that is okay. Would have preferred for the heavy to do a little more damage to armor as well.

[Alstar]

Balance Issue - Camos Canyon

 

After taking a look at the map balance stats and my memory, i have noticed that Allies are dominating on this map. I was wondering about possible balance issues - And i think i found the main reason of soviet defeats.

 

If Soviets lose Ore Truck before first of second dump, they tend to lose the match. Also, even if Soviets will successfully defend from attack on first dump, they may get into position where they wont be able to afford Heavy tanks to fight off second wave due to bought characters (and fact that gold gives now 500 instead of 700 credits). That mostly leaves soviets with Ore Silo as only source of income.

 

Possible solutions - Only idea i could think about so far is changing natural ore fields from gold to mixed gem and gold. While i dont think it will really affect Allies, it may give a chance for Soviets to retaliate to early allied attacks.

[Einstein]

I've noticed that it seems like there are more allied victories as well but I also think this is a case where it is very useful to learn how to skillfully use your faction. For example, 2 soviet engineers can easily rush the allied refinery around the left border of the map and change the game in the first 5 minutes or so. However long it takes to get 500 creds and get over there. The turret might knock off half of one engi's health in the process but it works out, trust me. This isn't so easy for the allies to pull off because the flame tower is much more likely to roast you as soon as you pop out from behind the little hill. You'd have to get really lucky.

[Alstar]

However, Allies dont really need to send engineers into soviet refinery because of 2 reasons:

1. Mines.

2. Allies can just continiously deny any bigger funds for Soviets by killing ore trucks.

[GeneralCamo]

It used to be Mixed gem/gold and the map played semi-balanced. I think reintroducing that may help a lot.

[Pushwall]

Or just give Soviets an extra silo instead of giving even more money to the Allies?

[ganein14]

Or just give the soviets the mixed field.

[Einstein]

2. Allies can just continiously deny any bigger funds for Soviets by killing ore trucks.

 

Not if you take down dat ref

[Pushwall]

I could also carve out a cliff in front of the Soviet ore mine to make it harder to hit the OT from the field.

 

Or maybe even give the Soviets a tesla coil in place of the ref FT (mitigates the approach of tank spam around the OT route while still being not exactly difficult for arties to take out)

[Killing_You]

I feel like a Flame Tower on the ore hill (and a Pillbox for the Allies to balance it out) would be better, as it could provide an obstacle for blitzers without making defense too tight.

[Einstein]

Exactly what this guy said ^

 

Additionally, you can solo it if you get really lucky. I actually managed to take out the allied ref by refilling my engi's C4 in a supply truck the other day. It was 1v1 and other guy was across the map taking down my OT with a medium tank. By the time the first C4 blew, I was already half way back to the ref to place the second one. He got up the stairs just in time for the C4 blast to kill him too

[Raap]

Exactly what this guy said ^

 

Additionally, you can solo it if you get really lucky. I actually managed to take out the allied Refinery by refilling my engi's C4 in a supply truck the other day. It was 1v1 and other guy was across the map taking down my OT with a medium tank. By the time the first C4 blew, I was already half way back to the Refinery to place the second one. He got up the stairs just in time for the C4 blast to kill him too

 

Nerf supply trucks?

[delta]

Additionally, you can solo it if you get really lucky. I actually managed to take out the allied Refinery by refilling my engi's C4 in a supply truck the other day. It was 1v1 and other guy was across the map taking down my OT with a medium tank. By the time the first C4 blew, I was already half way back to the Refinery to place the second one. He got up the stairs just in time for the C4 blast to kill him too

 

Pfft, that's easy to do in a 1v1. The other day on Pipeline, I think it was at least a 4v4, I grabbed an engi to capture oil pumps...I think a teammate got to them before I did, so I ended up just taking the supply truck on the hill and driving it into Allied base. The dome-side turret had been destroyed earlier, and nobody really noticed me as I planted C4 after C4 after C4 on their silo and service depot. Got off at least 5-6 of 'em

Edited February 24, 2016 by delta

[ganein14]

 

Additionally, you can solo it if you get really lucky. I actually managed to take out the allied Refinery by refilling my engi's C4 in a supply truck the other day. It was 1v1 and other guy was across the map taking down my OT with a medium tank. By the time the first C4 blew, I was already half way back to the Refinery to place the second one. He got up the stairs just in time for the C4 blast to kill him too

 

Pfft, that's easy to do in a 1v1. The other day on Pipeline, I think it was at least a 4v4, I grabbed an engi to capture oil pumps...I think a teammate got to them before I did, so I ended up just taking the supply truck on the hill and driving it into Allied base. The dome-side turret had been destroyed earlier, and nobody really noticed me as I planted C4 after C4 after C4 on their silo and service depot. Got off at least 5-6 of 'em

 

That's it? I once took a Tanya and a supply truck on Stormy Valley and destroyed the main buildings of the sov base as well as the silo. None of the defenses, depots or pads were destroyed. All during a 2v2 match with the allied base under siege.

[Einstein]

Am I late for the e-penis contest???

 

I didn't mean to derail this into a "who's done more impressive impossible sounding stuff with C4" thread. To answer Raap's question (not sure if serious), I don't think they should be nerfed honestly. They take like 5 seconds I believe to do the refill so if you're caught then you're screwed anyway. I like it the way it is.

[Pushwall]

That's it? I once took a Tanya and a supply truck on Stormy Valley and destroyed the main buildings of the sov base as well as the silo. None of the defenses, depots or pads were destroyed. All during a 2v2 match with the allied base under siege.

 

I did this on KOTG - while most of the Soviet defenses were still up so it involved my Tanya taking a lot of flame tower shots and finding the perfect places to avoid being hit by the 1 remaining coil - on a match that was a 4v4 or 5 IIRC. And the Soviet base was heavily populated for most of this.

 

Supply Trucks' C4 restoration is hardly OP in my opinion, people just need to recognise that Supply Trucks actually have a threatening feature now and destroy them or capture them instead of just leaving them lying around when there's the looming threat of Tanyas/Engineers. Supply Trucks die in a matter of seconds to anything that can actually hurt them and they can't even be meched effectively due to having only health and no armour. But I got lucky because a horde of heavy tanks spilling out of both sides of the base didn't bat an eyelash at the Allied-insignia supply truck parked outside their CY in a position that the coil can't hit (which I'm pretty sure several of them did see), even after losing several of their buildings to the same Tanya and even after I answered one of their player's question about where one Tanya is getting so much C4 from. If anyone had actually done something about the completely unprotected truck which I had to leave alone for minutes at a time, that would never have happened.

[System Error Message]

reading this thread you have to remember, this is an FPS version of C&C not battlefield. So when you balance this game you dont do it like battlefield, you balance it the way the units work in C&C.

 

Having restrictions is what makes it very much like C&C. So while fliers in C&C only had 1 weapon and couldnt attack each other than doing the same in the game would give it a C&C feel.

 

Its very important to keep the C&C feel rather than turning it into a battlefield game.

[TeamWolf]

reading this thread you have to remember, this is an FPS version of C&C not battlefield. So when you balance this game you dont do it like battlefield, you balance it the way the units work in C&C.

 

Having restrictions is what makes it very much like C&C. So while fliers in C&C only had 1 weapon and couldnt attack each other than doing the same in the game would give it a C&C feel.

 

Its very important to keep the C&C feel rather than turning it into a battlefield game.

 

APB took a Battlefield approach many years ago.

[Pushwall]

Okay I'm just going to stop you right there and list some of the problems with balancing everything the way it works in the original game:

• Soviet Tanyas that the Allies have little defense against due to not having AP mines.
• Even the Soviets have little defense against Tanyas anyway, because APCs can trigger AP mines harmlessly by either firing one bullet at their vehicle-sized hitbox or even driving over them.
• Tanyas that, in addition to massacring all infantry in one shot, outrange all other infantry.
• Tanyas/Engineers that just have to tag the wall of a building from the outside once to instantly damage/capture/fully repair it (engineer) or give it a godly one second grace period before it dies (tanya).
• Volkov with several thousand HP and concrete armour. Fair!
• Technicians that might as well not even be armed because it took what, 50 hits against a non-prone soldier to kill them?
• Aircraft being invulnerable to all but a very small number of units, despite the fact that all infantry and most vehicles are very capable of looking up and firing up (which we can't prevent on infantry)
• That "small number of units" doesn't even include other aircraft. Dogfighting certainly works out nicely in this game, why remove it just because it wasn't in RA?
• Ore Silos that don't actually do anything because a credit limit is not a thing that exists here.
• V2s killing buildings in 2-3 hits. Way too fast to actually deal with them.
• MAD Tanks that take about 10 seconds to detonate. Again, way too fast to actually deal with them.
• Missile Subs that can kill some buildings in one salvo. DEFINITELY way too fast to deal with them even if you could see them coming.
• Artillery that barely even has enough range to safely hit flame towers.
• Tesla Tanks that outrange Artillery AND kill them in one shot. Because RA Artillery apparently weren't useless enough just lacking the ability to outrange Tesla Coils.
• APCs that move faster than Rangers. What's even the point of Rangers then?
• Especially since being ~true to C&C~ also means giving every vehicle the same sized hitbox rather than hitboxes that make sense?
• Phase Tanks either not existing, or having passenger slots.
• Destroyers that do everything that Gunboats do but better. What's even the point of Gunboats then?
• Mine Layers that are OCD and must face exactly north and be temporarily locked in place every time they place a mine.
• No sergeants/captains = little variety in infantry. And no snipers = no way to fight them at range... not that that would matter with RA balance because...
• Infantry that exist only to die, because they're all useless except engies/tanyas/volkov, and even then they need a transport to not suck because they're all too slow to avoid being crushed by anything. Except Volkov who is practically unkillable by design.
• No barracks = no infantry units at all. Which would probably mean having to make it so you don't even respawn when you die. Fun!
• Vehicles can't be driven by anyone other than rifle soldiers. Which, to be fair, is probably one of the less unreasonable changes that could be made... except it'd be a big step backwards with regards to making infantry useful, and would be a MASSIVE nerf to the Allies due to mechanics. A nerf which they really don't need considering it is very possible for Soviets to win games in the face of LOLOPMECHS.
• In the end there's only a very small number of ground units per team that matter: medium tanks and Tanya APCs for Allies, and heavy tanks and V2s for Soviets. Or just Volkovs and nothing but if we're going with the "Volkov is mary sue" interpretation. Everything else is fluff.

Red Alert is not a balanced game. Trying to mimic its balance will make APB unfun. There's a reason OpenRA changed things. And there are ways of maintaining the feel that don't involve breaking the balance.

[ganein14]

• Even the Soviets have little defense against Tanyas anyway, because APCs can trigger AP mines harmlessly by either firing one bullet at their vehicle-sized hitbox or even driving over them.

This is news to me.

[Pushwall]

 

• Even the Soviets have little defense against Tanyas anyway, because APCs can trigger AP mines harmlessly by either firing one bullet at their vehicle-sized hitbox or even driving over them.

This is news to me.

 

It's pretty obvious on the Dark Horseman mission where you have to capture a forward command which is surrounded by AP mines, and due to the timer you're naturally inclined to use an APC to get your engineers there anyway.

[Raap]

"RA-lism" balance was tried for a while in older versions. Long story short, it didn't work and wasn't very fun.

 

Look at APB as a game that is based on Red Alert, not as a complete copy.

 

Besides, when I play APB, I find it difficult to not see it as a Red Alert inspired game, simply from the units alone. It just uses it's own set of balance changes and game additions that make sense to have in a shooter game setting.

 

Even Westwood couldn't copy paste Tiberian Dawn for Renegade (although likely for different reasons than why APB didn't copy paste RA balance).

 

Edit: The bottom line: Fun over RA-lism.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Raap

[Pushwall]

Looking back at that list there's an awful lot of "X kills Y instantly/almost instantly". So basically Red Alert is a rocket tag RTS. And even in its current state APB's gameplay is much more fast-paced than Reborn's and I've heard enough criticism about that, it really doesn't need to be any faster than it currently is

[Raap]

Looking back at that list there's an awful lot of "X kills Y instantly/almost instantly". So basically Red Alert is a rocket tag RTS. And even in its current state APB's gameplay is much more fast-paced than Reborn's and I've heard enough criticism about that, it really doesn't need to be any faster than it currently is

 

APB tried the slower, economy focused approach once or twice prior to my involvement with BHP (This was the RA-lism period). It just wasn't fun to play.

 

Even in Delta we got a few maps with a slow start-up gameplay that still essentially comes down to waiting for the first ore dump, and I personally consider that problem-maps for that reason.

 

Waiting in a game isn't fun. The economy IS important, but it should be adding to the game rather than subtracting from it. Running out of cash mid game because you failed to defend your Refinary and/or you wasted your cash is a good and working effect of in-game economy. Waiting idle for 4 minutes because you got nothing else to do and it isn't in your control, is not.

 

I do admit to not having tried the latest Reborn version, so I don't know how fast or slow that game plays compared to APB.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Raap

[Pushwall]

Even in Delta we got a few maps with a slow start-up gameplay that still essentially comes down to waiting for the first ore dump, and I personally consider that problem-maps for that reason

 

This is why captains still outrange the weakest defenses, sergeants still have almost unmatched MCT damage, and Supply Trucks are cheap enough to buy right away. You can still rush with those if you please, and it can work. I've seen captain and sergeant rushes work on KOTG and if it can happen there it can happen anywhere.

[Raap]

 

Even in Delta we got a few maps with a slow start-up gameplay that still essentially comes down to waiting for the first ore dump, and I personally consider that problem-maps for that reason

 

This is why captains still outrange the weakest defenses, sergeants still have almost unmatched MCT damage, and Supply Trucks are cheap enough to buy right away. You can still rush with those if you please, and it can work. I've seen captain and sergeant rushes work on KOTG and if it can happen there it can happen anywhere.

 

 

But it's not fun. It's repetitive, predictable, and not always possible on every map before the first ore dump (see Ridge War).

 

A problem one can solve in a few ways, some easy, some more difficult. But you'd have to agree on it being an issue, first.

[System Error Message]

in red alert any unit could attack an air unit if it is on the ground. So make them vulnerable if they are low enough to the ground/unit. I noticed if you fly your copter on the ground turrets dont shoot you. In RA ground units and buildings shoot air units that are on the ground such as when rearming.

 

There needs to be the feeling of restrictiveness in that every unit serves a specific role.

 

Another thing i noticed is the lack of tiering. What made RA balanced was that you had to build further to unlock them.

Edited March 18, 2016 by System Error Message

[Pushwall]

in red alert any unit could attack an air unit if it is on the ground. So make them vulnerable if they are low enough to the ground/unit.

Why? Just because RA did it? I'd rather go with the option that won't leave 95% of the player base asking "why am I not able to hurt this helicopter that I am clearly able to hit?" and continuing to ineffectually shoot helicopters expecting it to work like it logically should ESPECIALLY with non-bullet weapons.

 

I noticed if you fly your copter on the ground turrets dont shoot you. In RA ground units and buildings shoot air units that are on the ground such as when rearming.

Making defenses only target them when they're on the ground is not possible. They can either be able to aim at VTOLs all the time or they can't. And even if it was, adding it would have practically no effect on the gameplay because in what situations are people actually going to bring an air unit that low to shoot at a defense, except against Tesla Coils, which need to be unable to shoot Longbows for them to be balanced?

 

There needs to be the feeling of restrictiveness in that every unit serves a specific role.

How is it "needed"? Just because rifle soldiers are able to do more than 0 damage to air units does not mean they are a good counter to them.

 

Another thing i noticed is the lack of tiering. What made RA balanced was that you had to build further to unlock them.

First of all, "RA balanced". Pfft. The most you ever had to do was build a power plant, refinery, war factory, and then build refineries and war factories ad nauseum. The situations that actually encouraged you to build any further than that (getting barracks, helipads, radar domes, tech centres, or superweapons) were far too scarce to be considered "balanced".

 

Second, the Gamma version of this game (2011-2015) had a tiering system where the tech levels gradually unlocked over time (i.e. in the first 3 minutes you could only build infantry, then for 4 minutes afterwards the only vehicles were rangers and light/heavy tanks, etc) which was somewhat close to that. It was such a horribly unfun design choice that it drove almost all the players away. I will not bring back a feature that nobody (who knows what they're talking about) wants and has been proven to be a bad feature.

[System Error Message]

What i mean is in red alert you had to build the tech center to build better units. The whole process required time and resources.

 

It would be great if the game engine really did allow for new buildings to appear/disappear for the building process.

[GeneralCamo]

We go by the assumption that in the high tech maps, the player bought the tech center and then sold them. Because that was possible in RA, and yes, it kept all the tech from that building. Only RA2 implemented the concept of "requiring the building to stay alive"