Balance APB Delta patch balance discussion

[danpaul88]

CoolCock

Lets cool it with the name calling please, keep it civil.

[GeneralCamo]

What happens at BHP does not happen here. Therefore it does not apply here.

 

Back on-topic please.

[Ice]

Am I the only one who likes it that the Rocket Soldier and RPG Trooper are still available after the barracks is destroyed?

I like it too, but if the Redeye/Strela actually has longer range than a Destroyer or Missile Sub, then this could be a problem. All that should be needed though is giving them the same range, just so a $300 weapon doesn't render a $1500 warship essentially useless.

[GeneralCamo]

I'm personally on the side of "let's try removing them and see what happens". This could go bad, but it might go very good too.

[devilslayersbane]

Well, after reading through this entire thread in one infuriating sitting. I can say this: Back in 2.1, I would sit in an empty server once in awhile until someone joined. I'd get maybe 3-4 people, on a good day, 5-9. But I remember very clearly that as soon as the WF went down. Most people on that team would leave. I ended up leaving the game for awhile because of how disenfranchising that was. Personally, I'm glad that the Rocket Soldier stays. Though I do agree that the Strela and Redeye need a range reduction. On Seamist I can be hit just by leaving base from that hill next to the barracks.

[Coolrock]

 

As I said, if you guys want to keep it the current way it is, then by all mean do it. What would I know, having played C&C since C&C95 came out? If building units after a building is destroyed makes you all happy, then go with it. Don't let me be that one player that changes the game like it did in the past already. If people seriously want to cry over losing a building that you didn't defend properly, and not being allowed to use units from the building, then keep it just like it is. I'm honestly done with the back and forth on the topic. I gave my opinions. Take it or ignore it.

 

Call me whatever you want. Roolcock will always be my favorite. I miss TagDaze.

[TeamWolf]

I think having RS after you loose the barracks is bad, having the other two options keeps players in game a bit. It also still leaves that side with some different strategies to use.

[GeneralCamo]

If it turns out to have too many negative effects, it can always be reverted or changed.

[Death_Kitty]

Here is my 50 cents- for some inexplicable reason, people are only ranting (mainly) about the allied rocket soldier, but that's probably because soviets have shockies...

 

Rocket soldiers are very irritating, I'll give it that,m and the ability of strelas and reds to hit ships at so long of range is ridiculous. they should have at least the same range, if not having the ships range be longer ranged. I almost wish there was a special long range anti ship rocket launcher that needed a deploy time... So I agree with coolrock there (although I do not admire his delivery...)

 

On further thought as an avid chopper pilot, I find my self the target of far more reds that strelas, so maybe they should get a good range nerf (both anit-air launchers). But on the other hand, hinds would be able to close in then. I dont know, its a tough spot if you ask me. I feel as if allies need to regain emphasis on their infantry- namely the medic, who is so underused (his medikit is so hard to land with all the units jumping around) and other infantry combos. Maybe some new content? Dunno.

 

I like the though of soviets keeping the grenadier instead of RPG after death of bar, I I would like to see the medic be permanent for the allies (instead of rocket), to fill a similar role as grenadier- think about it, medics have comparatively weak guns, and are great support, but are not game changers by themselves.

 

In terms of balance this seems to be the main issue...

[Coolrock]

I was actually complaining about the Soviet Rocket Soldier

[delta]

Regarding Rocket Soldiers being unavailable with a dead Barracks...well, we've had that before in Beta haven't we? I'm not so sure about this, because if there's four Mammoths bearing down on your base and you don't have Barracks, that means the only thing you've got to fight them with are vehicles out of your War Factory...vehicles which are slow to build and will be melted quickly by the Mammoths and the Volkovs inside them. If we think the Rocket Soldier is too good at what it does, then maybe just increase its cost to say, 500-600?

[Pushwall]

Keep your Barracks alive then?

 

What you just said is also a bad thing because it means that a team that's winning has a lot of trouble actually ending the game because the enemy still has access to one of the best infantry-held anti-tank weapons (or the best in the Allies' case) and the best anti-air weapon in the game.

[moonsense715]

A winning team will not quit the game. If they do then they are not winning.

 

A losing team that gets slaughtered without anything to fight back with will quit the game.

 

I personally find it challenging and exciting to keep the winning team back with whatever equipment is available, even if my team will lose as it's fun. When no such equipment is available I usually quit before I just die too many times for no foreseeable chance of even killing a single enemy vehicle.

[Pushwall]

Well the problem there is you're assuming this is Gamma or earlier where riflemen/captains were completely useless against vehicles. They actually can do something about vehicles now. Just not as much as rocket soldiers can.

[moonsense715]

Well the problem there is you're assuming this is Gamma or earlier where riflemen/captains were completely useless against vehicles. They actually can do something about vehicles now. Just not as much as rocket soldiers can.

Indeed. Even rocket soldiers die in 2 seconds when an Arty/V2 hits. But at least there is some chance against the steamroller team, even if not much

If rocket soldiers cause that much of an issue that a winner team can not finish the game then maybe the RS is too strong for a $300 cost unit.

[Coolrock]

I've explained a few times that's it's more than just a Naval issue. Sure, it's a bigger part of the problem now that they got added back in, but not the only thing I've been talking about the entire time. They can pick off tanks easily without worry half the time. They can take out multiple helicopters before they ever get in range to try defending themselves. They're extremely powerful for the price. I'd rather take three of them over the purchase of a single Shock Trooper. While my problem doesn't mainly lie with how good they are (besides their range being a little crazy), it's more focused on them being available after the Barracks is destroyed.

[OWA]

Call me whatever you want. Roolcock will always be my favorite. I miss TagDaze.

I miss TagDaze as well. RoolCock was always a great nickname.

 

As for where I stand on this issue. Taking Rocket Soldiers out of the game when the Barracks goes down would be good, because they are incredibly strong for their 300 credit price tag. If it proves to be a problem again, then rockets could always get the nerf stick I guess?

[Coolrock]

 

Call me whatever you want. Roolcock will always be my favorite. I miss TagDaze.

I miss TagDaze as well. RoolCock was always a great nickname.As for where I stand on this issue. Taking Rocket Soldiers out of the game when the Barracks goes down would be good, because they are incredibly strong for their 300 credit price tag. If it proves to be a problem again, then rockets could always get the nerf stick I guess?

Perfectly fine with this. It gives more of a reason to defend your base to keep amazing Infantry around into the late game.

[devilslayersbane]

Ok, fine. I'll concede on the fact that captains are actually somewhat usefull against vehicles. But at any rate, it should be more of an open test. I still remember how salty I'd get when my entire team would leave me out to dry in gamma.

[Raap]

As for where I stand on this issue. Taking Rocket Soldiers out of the game when the Barracks goes down would be good, because they are incredibly strong for their 300 credit price tag. If it proves to be a problem again, then rockets could always get the nerf stick I guess?

 

 

A good middle ground might be to slightly raise the officer weapon damage to heavy vehicles (tanks). It might promote their usage a bit more as well.

[Coolrock]

My problem is with them being around after you destroy a Barracks. Obviously others agree if they're considering changing it. I doubt they would solely change it on my behalf alone.

[Coolrock]

You repeat yourself a lot.

[dblaney1]

I hope the bullet damage vs heavy vehicles is not increased any more. I never was a fan of bullets doing any sort of substantial damage to tankw unless it was something like a shilka, or an AA defense battery. I know in red alert they could damage tanks but that was more of a gameplay choice thats necessary in RTS.

Edited January 28, 2016 by dblaney1

[devilslayersbane]

I never was a fan of bullets doing any sort of substantial damage to tankw unless it was something like a shilka, or an AA defense battery. I know in red alert they could damage tanks but that was more of a gameplay choice thats necessary in RTS.

Well, maybe at the time, but Wargame certainly found a way around it. But if we do that, then we'll still need rocket soldiers after the barracks goes down. And you'd see even MORE of the Rocket-soldier spam than we do, because all other infantry would be rendered effectively useless.

 

Suggestion 1:

We could, and please don't kill me on this, but we could add an allied grenadier unit. Probably something like a 20mm HEDP grenade launcher or just some F1/M67 based frag grenades. Or even a more specialized M79 style Grenade launcher. But, then we lose more RAlism and some new modeling has to be done. And this would only really be a viable alternative on Land-only maps, as coastal and air defense would go down.

 

Suggestion 2:

have a second rocket soldier unit that's available after the barracks goes down for each side, carrying only the primary rocket launcher and a side arm. This would still punish the losing team for losing thier barracks, without completely ruining them. Keep in mind that this would be a secondary rocket soldier class so it be something like this:

class al_rocket_soldier
{
	health = x;
	armor = x;
	weapons = M72, FIM_43, M951;
        mesh = c_al_rocket_soldier.w3d;
}
class al_rocket_soldier_db: al_rocket_soldier //dead barracks
{
	weapons = M72, M951;
}

//forgive my pseudocode

And the _db class would be available only after the barracks was down.

Edited January 29, 2016 by devilslayersbane

[Death_Kitty]

Easy there. Nerf aa launcher damage against chopper and boat, and boom nuff' said.

[Killing_You]

Just nerf them against boats. Their damage against helis is fine.

[Coolrock]

Someone is upset. Keep smoking that weed, sir.

 

I went into detail plenty of times that this was more than one map. I doubt the team would even consider this if they in some form of way didn't understand where I'm coming from. I wish you'd drop it and stop looking for any form of way to attack me

[gammae102]

Honestly guys, the rocket soldier issue now has its own topic here. All you've been doing for the last 50 posts is talking at each other. I guess everything else other than rockets must be perfectly balanced now.

[harvester]

I guess everything else other than rockets must be perfectly balanced now.

Except maybe medics and RA_CoastalInfluence's soviet refinery position.

[Einstein]

 

I guess everything else other than rockets must be perfectly balanced now.

Except maybe medics and RA_CoastalInfluence's soviet refinery position.

 

The map is undergoing some change to try to balance this out. If you'll look here, you can see the changes.