Event [GAME OVER]Back to Basics II: Classic APB Mafia

[Mojoman]

I don't like being a power role. I softclaim too easy.

[Killing_You]

##vote vo- wait whut GG already?

 

Well, that was interesting. And by the way, I apologize for my absence on the latter half of Day 2. There was an unexpected encounter, which required alcohol for me to stabilize my mind, and that put me mostly out of action the next day.

 

In any case, I disagree that having 4 anti-town roles killed the game. Ultimately IMO it was a lack of town power roles, as well as many town members acting a little too scummy for their own good.

[FRAYDO]

Voting FRAYDO as worst townie since Mojoman.

[Category 5 Hurricane]

Your "POOF I'M HERE DON'T VOTE FOR ME" absolutely would not have worked on me. It looked like a scum panic. That said, I didn't understand why anyone voted for you. I'd probably been voting ChopBam for what looked like a SK-slip earlier in the day, unless I decided to believe Jeod's good arguments that himself and ChopBam were clear, in which case I probably would have pushed for Killing_You given Jeod's really excellent argument that KY was the only person that had to be part of a scum team. I thought that was great analysis.

 

I still think you are quietly one of the better players here. Spectate the game a little less and dig into the fray(do) a bit more to take advantage of your good compass.

I vote Voe as worst town. Even though he wasn't town. And I get second prize.

@KY What good are town power roles when 42% of town is dead D2?

Edited December 23, 2016 by Category 5 Hurricane

[Killing_You]

Fair point, though I was coming from the mindset of "town shouldn't be forced to rely on one, maybe two guys to gather information." 

[ChopBam]

 

Voting FRAYDO as worst townie since Mojoman.

 

Nah it's just that you had all day D2 to defend yourself but chose to come in less than 10 minutes before hammer to defend yourself and try to get votes off.

[Chaos_Knight]

Huh. Well, this ended earlier than expected.

But congrats lads on the clean sweep of the outpost. Looks like we might be going home before Christmas after all!

 

Anyway here's a few things I'd like to note:

Props to GenCamo for:

+ Classic role names next to flavor ones.

+ No RNG lynches or any RNG for that matter.

+ Overall communications with players even if could be considered slightly leaky. Nowhere close to iLikeToLeak tho.

 

Game suggestions:

- I think game could be more balanced if Voe was a vig.

- If not, town needed just a bit more PRs. Like tracker and/or watcher considering the amount of hostiles they had to face. Or maybe a town blocker.

- Give more feedback to the players on their actions and actions taken upon them. Sure you won't be able to tell if someone tracked you, but it only makes sense to know if you had a splitting headache last night which prevented you from going out or not.

 

Overall rolesheet suggestions:

- Town Captain (Watcher) role is pretty much useless. They can see the type of action is taken upon their target but what good would it do for town? I think he should instead see who visited but not what they did.

- Minelayer could be a CPR doctor/bodyguard hybrid who kills the very first person to visit their target at night or the target themselves if nobody visits them (that mine is still there after all).

- Grenadier could be switched to a day 1 time use vig rather than night so he won't be inferior to Sniper.

[VERTi60]

VERTi60 vastly underestimated his role. He did a decent attempt at providing information on D1 regardless, but the Allies did not fall for his bait. The intention of the Hider was as a weaker Cop who could town-confirm players, and was also immune to Nightkills. He did not need to hide however, and any action that affected the player he hid behind would affect him. This included Cop Checks. 

Oh yes, I did underestimate it. I thought I had a merely 25%-30% to kill myself during the night, well, it turns out it was 40%! (4/10 to hide behind hostile players, now including TP as well)

And on top of that, even if I had guessed a townie player, there were two night kills per night (unless blocked or doc'ed, but block was antitown and mojo was killed on N1 so doesn't really count),

which means another 33% chance of dying. If there would be a town misslynch instead of me the stakes would go even higher - another 40% and continuing by each passing day.

 

A hider role where there is so many anti town killing is indeed, almost as useless. I agree it could be used for at least one night if played right to clear somebody, but certainly not after day 1 events, where I learned that more players wanted me dead regardless what I claimed or what my alignment was (basically CK and Cat5 admitted it outright D1).

Even chopbam had hard time clearing Jeod even though nobody counter claimed the cop role (Chaos could do it but it wasn't necessary). I would probably blame voe for this by not having such a big distrust in claimed town roles, but then again if you check voe's meta he never trusts anyone anyway (which sometimes works, sometimes doesn't).

 

I was thinking about hiding behind either one of the quiet ones, Fraydo or Alstar, or town appearing guys Cat5 and Nodlied. Eventually applying second filter where I would expect either cat5 or nodlied would be NK-ed first, but I wasn't sure about Fraydo and Alstar being town. And since nodlied was the only person least hostile on D1 so he might have lurk me into a trap eventually

 

 

• Investigation Immunity will be removed entirely. The Serial Killer's option for Investigation Immunity will be replaced by an option for an Ascetic Modifier, and the Godfather will be removed. To replace this, the Grenadier will be reworked into a Miller with a 1-shot Day Vig ability.
• An additional power role will likely be given to Town in future games like this.
• I'll avoid posting more possibly meta post, and just outright edit the initial post if needed. And hope you all find it of course. This way there isn't a timestamp you can conveniently use for your arguments.
• During draws involving Serial Killers, a Lynch may be replaced with a Duel ability, which will have RNG involved in case of tie votes. This way we don't have an inevitable ending like we did D3.

These are all the suggestions I gave you in dead doc, I like that you concluded these are worthy changes for the better good.

 

 

Overall, I think this game was successful, and I hope to see you all in VERTi60's next game. Whenever that would be.

Probably after holiday time, e.g. don't expect it within next two weeks at least.

Also: Since we had too many Red Alert APB related games (I mean even the nomination kinda changed into "escape the red alert apb room" game), the next game will be different flavor theme mafia.

And since you guys voted Death Note as second choice, prepare to be surprised by yet another unique style of mafia gaming.

 

 

This game I screwed up by not including any backup roles. I certainly didn't expect Mojoman to just be shot right then and there. That ultimately killed any sort of balance this game had.

Certainly not just the doctor. Even if the doctor would live he had only 20% chance to stop a kill + there was a chance he could get role blocked by doing so.

As I told you in scum docs there are also other variables to take into account, and it also includes some meta not just roles.

 

 

I'm eager to see the vert mafia.

Pack your brain though as you are about to see the greatest brain fuck in history of mafia games. Instead of relying on actions or RNG (yes there won't be any rng based kill in that game since it's not focused on direct combat actions), this time you will need to rely on your brain as the battle of wits will be your main weapon.

 

 

A lights to flag town loss. I agree with Voe, this game was too far scum sided. I'm not sure why we keep doing so many scum. 25% + 1 is too much. This game actually went further than that and went 25% + 1 + 1. A massive 36% percent of players were anti-town on the start. Because Voe wound up helping scum 100% of the time, the game was within a chance of ending after N2 if Voe was allowed to kill a different townie than scum did. That is way too fast. With 20% of 11 being 2.2, Allied team should have been 2 players, with maybe one TP.

Considering how easily 2 allies (voe+CK) won during APB Mafia II against town + TP, I agree that a 2 scum team could still work. However, it could easily end up similarly like last APB game where KY was picked up by TP leaving only one allied player in game.

3+1 was too much anti town, but 2+1 seems risky if anti town parties target each other.

 

 

And here's another interesting balance suggestion:

 

- I think game could be more balanced if Voe was a vig.

This sounds a bit better balance wise. Although if you look at it from the meta POV, it might have no impact on the outcome. Voe is still voe afterall

In the end the game would end just like it did, with the exception that voe wouldn't target Mojoman Day 1, but I bet he would end up killing soviet cop instead (choppy on the block). However Mojoman would be killed by scum eventually anyway or just blocked.

But at least the game could last a bit longer (ending on D5-D6 instead of D3).

 

 

+ No RNG lynches or any RNG for that matter.

+ Overall communications with players even if could be considered slightly leaky. Nowhere close to iLikeToLeak tho.

I disagree:

No RNG lynches in case of two anti town factions with two night kills is a bad idea as it pre-determines the game outcome like it just did on D3. If there would be RNG lynch, the day would have played until the end and nothing would be decided. Instead of RNG the GM can also call a second vote, but that usually doesn't fix it since it usually ends up with second tie. Hence RNG is then the only possible way. (and besides it's a bit of a more exciting not knowing the outcome)

In regards to communications, GM jumping in the middle of meta arguments can influence the game too much. But GC already admitted he'll try better approach.

Also not giving info of getting role blocked also seems a bit off.

 

 

 

 

Voting FRAYDO as worst townie since Mojoman.

 

Nah it's just that you had all day D2 to defend yourself but chose to come in less than 10 minutes before hammer to defend yourself and try to get votes off.

 

Everyone thinks it's a scummy move but as I explained in dead doc the likelihood that scum panics like that when they have a scum doc opened and planning things ahead is really low. Leaning towards paniced town not attending is more logical.

It doesn't excuse Fraydo of being inactive most of the game though Therefore I really suggest all future town players to be as much active as you can during the day as that is usually your only weapon to lurk out scum. You cannot expect to scum hunt on the premise of hiding in the background and praying that night actions will save you (in fact, usually they kill you).

 

[Voe]

It's not about distrust, Vert.

 

1. If a player comes out on MYLO and straight up claims "cops don't come out", then gets pointed out he's wrong, then he softclaims waiting for response from the crowd, then he waits still talking about hunches, and only when absolutely sure nobody is going to counterclaim him he hardclaims, it's so incredibly scummy I don't want to even go that way again.
    
2. If you add to that the same player had the same hunches about the same other player back on day 1, when Jeod was rolefishinig and pushed against Vertigo so hard he wanted him to suicide (day 1, you understand? no hard evidence, that's inexcusable), and then miraculously his hunches come back true on top of point 1...
    
3. Jeod finds nothing wrong with this. Nope, ChopBam did nothing wrong. I did nothing wrong. Could chop be lying? Nop. Could chop be buying my allegiance? Nop. Is chop slipping and getting baited? Nop. Is choppy actually attempting being useful? Yep. (wait what?)

This makes my stomach turn. They played the game like masons, which they wouldn't claim.

[VERTi60]

Voe, ignore day 1 as it was total wreck, mostly due to Jeod which we all agree. Not sure if it was your intention to lynch me btw regardless of alignment but if it wasn't well blame yourself as well not trusting me

 

However your finger pointing at Chopbam is still from your own POV, hence I called it what it is, a town claim distrust. It's not necessarily a bad thing not to trust a claim, but he was the only one claiming cop might I add (even though CK could step in). If you don't believe a cop on MYLO when he's not even counter claimed then the problem is you not the cop. Now, you could sometimes try to look on the situation from other people's perspective. Not everyone thinks like you and you can't expect everyone will behave the way you would. Chopbam had doubts, he wasn't ready to role claim straight up on D2, we all agree on that point too. But believe me it's hard to claim like that if somebody else covers his years yelling constantly that it can't be true because every town player must distrust everyone all the time, no town friends are allowed.

Also I was also confused about them on day 1 too so don't take it like I'm accusing you that it's your fault only.

[Voe]

If day 2 started and ChopBam came out saying "ok we're at mylo. I checked Jeod, he's town. My role says I cannot be wrong about the alignment", I'd be a lot more obliged to trust him than his beating around the bushes and constantly changing opinions.

Alright. Unnecessary rant. It's easy for me to promote distrust as the serial killer.

[ChopBam]

If day 2 started and ChopBam came out saying "ok we're at mylo. I checked Jeod, he's town. My role says I cannot be wrong about the alignment", I'd be a lot more obliged to trust him than his beating around the bushes and constantly changing opinions.

I'd look even more scummy if I said that because I'd be lying about my role, and contradicting the rolesheet. Especially if Jeod did turn out godfather or sk.

[VERTi60]

We can all agree on that. Question is would you still believe it? Probably there would be doubts still. E.g. you could say that scum is more confident to claim straight away like that compared to unsure townie.

[Voe]

Yes, you're right. Sorry for the trainwreck, I got blinded by confidence.

[VERTi60]

Yes, you're right. Sorry for the trainwreck, I got blinded by confidence.

 

I forgot to mention that it also depends on the game type. Some of these traits could actually be useful.

 

Now that I think about it, being distrustful, paranoid, overly confident to being blinded by godly-hood of justice will help you a lot in my Death Note mafia concept.

Hence I think if you, Chaos and Jeod join you'll probably shine

J/K anyone can ofc.

[Alstar]

You know, im slowly understanding that entire ##vote Voe at day 1 meme.

[VERTi60]

It's no fun without voe though!

But you can still always show some support by joining Nodlied's D1 vote on voe.

[Voe]

It's no fun without voe though!

But you can still always show some support by joining Nodlied's D1 vote on voe.

Speaking of, I should start offing him night 1 again.

[VERTi60]

I actually hoped you would in ded doc, that would break the confidence for allies and could possibly make them lose the game int he end without active role block to stop your kills.

Then again you would be prime suspect next day.

[Nodlied]

But you can still always show some support by joining Nodlied's D1 vote on voe.

 Please do.

 

We (scum) were a bit overpowered, but in all essence, we didn't really have to do anything.

In any case, this game was a disaster for town. It wasn't hard to lynch townies and come up with good reasons as to why we (scum) did what we did. Finding out who the serial killer was wasn't hard either. In accordance to the good old tradition hailing back to the BHP days, the doctor died before D2. And although there were several moments where we could be pressured for questionable actions - going after Choppy's cop claim when there wasn't any counter claim, me claiming good guy roleblocker while it also makes sense for scum to have one, etc - you guys were too focussed on doing what you did. Special thanks to Jeod and Voe for throwing this game under the bus for town.

 

In essence,

Speaking of, I should start offing him night 1 again.

Well Voe, we're somewhat in the same boat. I always try lynching you D1, you always try killing me N1. I'm waiting for a game where bothe things somehow happen and end up badly for ourselves.

[VERTi60]

Well Voe, we're somewhat in the same boat. I always try lynching you D1, you always try killing me N1. I'm waiting for a game where bothe things somehow happen and end up badly for ourselves.

 

+

CHRONOSTAPLERFAHRER EDITION!

[Jeod]

So when is the Death Note mafia?

[VERTi60]

Not sooner than two weeks. Maybe next Friday if I get time I'll post more info or interest thread.

APB mafia chat version can be played next friday if we get at least 5 people on teamspeak.

[Jeod]

Wasn't the APB RPG coming first, or was that an either-or?

 

I'll try to make next Friday. No promises though if it's before 9:30 EDT.

[VERTi60]

I've already mentioned RPG is not happening next because we have too many Red Aert apb related games (even your nomination mafia kinda falls under it ).

I've also rethought the rpg and came up with more interesting gameplay, similar to DS3/4, but that will take time to iron out.

 

I've been thinking more about Death Note concept and I feel more positive about it, it could be done sooner than the whole new RPG thing which tends to be more tedious.

[Killing_You]

Hey didn't you guys say that you were going to make a "how-to-GM" guide at some point? I'd like to see that, as I'm interested in running one at some point.

[Voe]

I think this forum needs a full paranoia mafia, with changing alignments and goals.

[Alstar]

Amnesiac Only would be fun. With maybe small addition like 1 town and 1 mafia. Choose your team, if you are lucky.

[VERTi60]

Hey didn't you guys say that you were going to make a "how-to-GM" guide at some point? I'd like to see that, as I'm interested in running one at some point.

 

I only know about Jeod publishing some guidelines but it was mainly strategies for new players.

What exactly do you mean?

Every game setup has it's own optimal guidelines, and the most general ones are usually displayed in the OP of each game.

 

 

I think this forum needs a full paranoia mafia, with changing alignments and goals.

 

Don't worry, you'll have plenty of that next.

[ChopBam]

I'm sure KY means stuff like how to balance a game correctly (ratios of players and PR's on each team, when certain roles are needed or not needed, etc) and a step-by-step process for GMing. It's more than managing Google Docs and tallying up votes. You need to not give away sensitive information but give as much information as is needed for the game to thrive. You need to not forget things like renaming the thread title every morning/evening and how to calculate a chain of night actions, especially if players target each other. If there's RNG, a description of how that works. So yeah, stuff.