A Path Beyond Dogs In APB: A Discussion

[NodGuy]

17 hours ago, VERTi60 said:

I can imagine that one of the future troll maps would include chitzkoi as secondary anti infantry fire mode for volkov XD

🤤

[VERTi60]

22 minutes ago, Nodlied said:

crying how dogs are OP

The concept of a dog attack should be simple enough - when you let it get close and you die, you deserve it. If you complain that you were unaware or you were not paying attention leaving a dog inside your building then that's your problem. Now why would you need a squad to kill a dog, you should be able to kill it by yourself with basic infantry.

Hence - a dog should have low health and no armor, it should resist few bullets or pistol shots max, everything else hitting it should kill it. Any soldier has range advantage.

And perhaps you can also try this - instead of never-ending insta-melee attacks, give the dog an attack that requires a cool down, which would:

1. Limit the dog to attack one infantry at a time with targeting mechanic

2. Give it a visual and restricting vulnerability before he recovers from attack - if possible, make the attack animation last for few seconds with recovering animation as well -> then it's easy to take it out (imho this was also how it was in RA, the dog couldn't always attack right away and was vulnerable biting the enemy infantry on ground)

 

[Nodlied]

1 hour ago, VERTi60 said:

The concept of a dog attack should be simple enough - when you let it get close and you die, you deserve it. If you complain that you were unaware or you were not paying attention leaving a dog inside your building then that's your problem. Now why would you need a squad to kill a dog, you should be able to kill it by yourself with basic infantry.

Hence - a dog should have low health and no armor, it should resist few bullets or pistol shots max, everything else hitting it should kill it. Any soldier has range advantage.

The tests we've had that have included dogs so far have shown that my the conclusions in my earlier posts are in fact sound. You know when there's a dog in the base, there's nothing to be unaware of. And it does require multiple people to kill if you want to prevent it from doing its thing. Even dedicated dog VS infantry tests with the dev team have ended in the same conclusion. It's broken in its current form. However, making it easier to kill won't be the sollution either.
 

1 hour ago, VERTi60 said:

And perhaps you can also try this - instead of never-ending insta-melee attacks, give the dog an attack that requires a cool down, which would:

1. Limit the dog to attack one infantry at a time with targeting mechanic

2. Give it a visual and restricting vulnerability before he recovers from attack - if possible, make the attack animation last for few seconds with recovering animation as well -> then it's easy to take it out (imho this was also how it was in RA, the dog couldn't always attack right away and was vulnerable biting the enemy infantry on ground)

The devs and I have already mentioned that we're working on new mechanics as well as different ideas for the dog in order to make it fit the game in a balanced and fair manner. The two things that you have mentioned have already been taken into consideration.  

[Coolrock]

No deployable infantry in APB. Single point bite instead of an AoE bite should work better here. 

As far as jumping, this happens with any infantry engagement most of the time. Seems like a poor argument to say the unit isn’t fun. 

If the Attack Dog gets close enough to kill someone, you can’t blame the Attack Dog. Of course players on the receiving end are going to get upset, but that goes for any single time a lower tech unit goes against a higher tech unit. 

Units can get into a base without base defenses and “go on a rampage” besides just the dog. If the team allows the dog to get into the base, that’s on them. Lowering the health would again probably help out. 

[Nodlied]

2 hours ago, Coolrock said:

No deployable infantry in APB. Single point bite instead of an AoE bite should work better here. 

APB also has infantry gameplay that supports dogs better than AR.

 

2 hours ago, Coolrock said:

As far as jumping, this happens with any infantry engagement most of the time. Seems like a poor argument to say the unit isn’t fun. 

Jumping is only part of the equasion. It merely shows how a dog and the infantry unit interact with one another. It's a jumpfest to nowhere and everywhere which, like normal gameplay, relies on doging, but, unlike normal gameplay, it doesn't rely as much on aiming as it does on finding the lucky hit. And as I said, jumping is only part of the jump-click-knifefight, which is only a part of what the unit brings to the game.
 

2 hours ago, Coolrock said:

If the Attack Dog gets close enough to kill someone, you can’t blame the Attack Dog. Of course players on the receiving end are going to get upset, but that goes for any single time a lower tech unit goes against a higher tech unit. 

There's no reason to get upset about losing to a lower tech unit or even the unit that you counter. The issue with the dog is that it is extremely one sided. It can reach you extremely quickly (which it should, else it'd become worthless in the field) no matter where you are. Combine that with what is a battle that you are destined to lose unless you get lucky, and you will soon get annoyed with the dog. Even while playing one yourself, the fun will soon drop once you begin to notice how easy it is to score kills and disturb half of the enemy team (on Dune Patrol) with just a 200 credit unit. One could somewhat compare it to the old hitscan snipers of old (let alone the V-sniping era).

 

2 hours ago, Coolrock said:

Units can get into a base without base defenses and “go on a rampage” besides just the dog. If the team allows the dog to get into the base, that’s on them. Lowering the health would again probably help out. 

1. The difference here is that dogs are far too efficient at it.
2. It's not always possible to stop dogs from getting into a base. And it will be even harder once we update the maps. Dogs are very fast, can outrun squads and very quickly find lone targets to (somewhat) spawnkill. This isn't a commando unit that requires coordination to take down. This is a 200 credit unit that can paralyze a team for a few minutes if used correctly. @Killing_You has done this quite a few times.
3. Lowering the health is something we're looking at. However, it didn't really help during the dedicated dev-only dog test we had about a month ago.

 

Rest assured, and as I've said before, we're still working on the dog to ensure that it's a fine unit that's part of the game. It's just that in its current form, it won't reach the live servers.

[VERTi60]

It's also a good point to consider that infantry combat in AR and APB are very much different, the dog in APB as it is in AR would not perform as good as one might think. In fact I believe it would actually suck. Maps are more narrow, not so open, no big building interiors, infantry are more accurate and have better ROF in general (plus better anti infantry roles such as captains, starshinas, nades, flamethrowers, etc).

So really comparing how dogs are in AR doesn't mean they will be same for APB. In the end both games should have quite different dog balance and mechanics.

[Killing_You]

1 hour ago, Nodlied said:

2. It's not always possible to stop dogs from getting into a base. And it will be even harder once we update the maps. Dogs are very fast, can outrun squads and very quickly find lone targets to (somewhat) spawnkill. This isn't a commando unit that requires coordination to take down. This is a 200 credit unit that can paralyze a team for a few minutes if used correctly. @Killing_You has done this quite a few times.

Funny thing is, I'm not sure if this is me doing something wrong or something right...

[Jerad2142]

On ‎10‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 2:20 AM, GraYaSDF said:

Btw, a dog of KatzSmile was very realistic. I cannot find that photo, unfortunately. The new model... hmm, looks like... doge, not shepherd.  

Don't worry, that's just the dog model I bought for ECW and Bear Island, I'm sure APB would come up with their own doggo model if they decide to have one, I'd just give them the animation set.

[Raap]

I don't see how it adds anything meaningful to the game.

You're playing a soldier, shape-shifting into a dog feels out of place. I could see it possible as an AI unit that you purchase and it follows you around (until you enter a vehicle, then it goes away), but playable? Too many issues from aesthetics, to immersion, to gameplay. You'd need a whole new infantry controls and physics system to support it properly, such as support for forward-strafing movement animations.

Further more you'd be crossing into AR territory too much. Personal opinion: dogs are the least fun AR 'infantry' unit at the moment due to all the various issues that come from controlling them as well as their unit role simply not being very fun (especially not on the receiving end).

Lastly, another personal opinion; I know it is a game, but I never feel good about killing animals. I feel that games which do it go from "funny" to "couldn't they think of anything else?".

Edited October 26, 2018 by Raap

[VERTi60]

10 minutes ago, Raap said:

Lastly, another personal opinion; I know it is a game, but I never feel good about killing animals. I feel that games which do it go from "funny" to "couldn't they think of anything else?".

I know some people are more sensitive to animals or even their own virtual pets getting hurt rather than being sensitive to other people getting hurt -- but still it's just another game where violence happens as it is suppose to be a fictional world war.

Dogs were in original Red Alert, I think it was the first RTS that introduce them as viable unit and it continued in other sequels and games. No reason not to include it because it's an animal.

[NodGuy]

29 minutes ago, Raap said:

You're playing a soldier, shape-shifting into a dog feels out of place.

No more out of place than pulling a Bruce when purchasing Tanya. 

[Raptor29aa]

what about the player setting a nuke flare as a dog?

Edited October 27, 2018 by Raptor29aa

[Coolrock]

18 hours ago, Raap said:

You're playing a soldier, shape-shifting into a dog feels out of place. I could see it possible as an AI unit that you purchase and it follows you around (until you enter a vehicle, then it goes away), but playable? Too many issues from aesthetics, to immersion, to gameplay. You'd need a whole new infantry controls and physics system to support it properly, such as support for forward-strafing movement animations.

Further more you'd be crossing into AR territory too much. Personal opinion: dogs are the least fun AR 'infantry' unit at the moment due to all the various issues that come from controlling them as well as their unit role simply not being very fun (especially not on the receiving end).

Lastly, another personal opinion; I know it is a game, but I never feel good about killing animals. I feel that games which do it go from "funny" to "couldn't they think of anything else?".

That has to be the silliest argument I’ve seen yet. Shape shifting into a dog? Turning into a female or cyborg is odd also, so I guess we should remove those also? 

Crossing into AR? Red Alert has a dog, so I don’t understand this argument 

Never thought we would cross the point of animal abuse being an arguement for not having dogs in the game. Better tell @Jerad2142to remove deer from his game while on the subject. 

[gammae102]

A few thoughts:

I agree with Coolrock in that a single point bite instead of an AoE bite should work better in APB than AR.  Other things if dogs remain to OP that can be considered include making the player hold down the mouse button for a second (or fraction of second or however long) with the orange bar at the bottom of the screen before lunging at the enemy.  This can be done like planting a flare currently in APB where if you move during the time the flare is not planted, or like the demo truck where you can keep moving, depending on what works better.  I think it might also be a good idea to not let dogs inside buildings as I could see how they'd be too good in close quarters.  Also the dogs should start barking automatically if a spy gets within a certain radius.

Dogs, cruisers, MiGs: is there anything the APB team cannot do?

[ganein14]

14 hours ago, gammae102 said:

Dogs, cruisers, MiGs: is there anything the APB team cannot do?

If they can find a way and pull off a four way AoW battle between GDI, Nod, Allies, and the Soviets in a single mod...I'll say no.

[Coolrock]

9 hours ago, ganein14 said:

If they can find a way and pull off a four way AoW battle between GDI, Nod, Allies, and the Soviets in a single mod...I'll say no.

Can already do 3 teams 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Raap]

On 10/27/2018 at 12:32 PM, Coolrock said:

That has to be the silliest argument I’ve seen yet. Shape shifting into a dog? Turning into a female or cyborg is odd also, so I guess we should remove those also? 

Crossing into AR? Red Alert has a dog, so I don’t understand this argument 

Never thought we would cross the point of animal abuse being an arguement for not having dogs in the game. Better tell @Jerad2142to remove deer from his game while on the subject. 

I just find it tasteless, is all.

As for shape shifting, it is a harder thing to sell. The main problem here is that the infantry physics are too limited, it results in the whole process of shifting into a dog and controlling it to feel significantly disconnected from the game.

[Raptor29aa]

@Raap I understand what you mean by awkwardness. The lower camera angle would feel weird in first person... so would the jumping at your opponent. 

Psychologically I do know you see a dog as a cuddly and loyal pet... that is until you pass by your neighbors house and their pet, an angery chow mastiff, jumps the fence because  your dumb neighbor doesn’t care for the dog. Sorry... my point, any animal  seen as harmless is difficult to kill. Same goes for humans. But if the dogs in APB seem less cute and more scary maybe even wolf like, it would disassociate them from cute pets and thus not encourage mistreatment of animals. (Just like how the game doesn’t show smiling kind humans instead enemy soldiers)

Edited October 28, 2018 by Raptor29aa

[OWA]

On 10/28/2018 at 2:37 PM, Coolrock said:

Can already do 3 teams 🤷🏻‍♂️

Whilst three teams are somewhat possible, making the third team perform the same as the other two teams would require some work. It's not that simple unfortunately.

[Mezmerize]

Dogs could be a cool addition to the meta game, plus it is a unit from RA1. Model a simple Kennel, and add it as part of the Soviet Barracks, like where those barrels are outside of it, left side. So you shoot at the kennel? You're technically shooting at the barracks. When Barracks dies, so does the Kennel's functionality. You go up to the kennel, and its a switch, like in Interim Apex where you go up to the helicopter pad, and it has switches for the various choppers you can buy. So you go up to and aim at the kennel, and a target box appears saying "Purchase Attack Dog $200". Press E to purchase, and an AI controlled Attack Dog spawns, along with green help text explaining how to control the dog, "Press E to have him follow you, press E again to have him guard area." 

Now you'll need some AI pathfinding routes setup in all maps. I figure, the Dog AI acts just like the bot soldiers you can buy in Interim Apex. When following you, they move at full speed, attacking any enemies they encounter. When not following you, they move at walk speed, patrolling the area where they were told to stay, but going back to run speed and attacking any enemies that come near. They can detect spies, will attack them on sight. 

In Interim Apex, guard bots will talk when enemies are nearby. For the Dog, have him bark and growl when enemies (including spies) are near. The purpose of the dog is to protect against spies, thieves and other enemy infiltrators. Depending on the map size, you can only buy a certain amount of Dogs. On small maps like Metro, limit 2. Big maps like Keep off the Grass and the one with the AA gun truck, limit 3 or 4. Just enough to have a dog be guarding important structures.

So for example, you buy the dog, go up to him, press E to have him follow you, then bring him inside the war factory near the vehicle creation bay. Press E to have him guard that area. You just helped your team by safeguarding against spies. While your team buys vehicles, the Dog will start barking loudly, growling menacingly and run towards who you thought was a teammate, and then attack him, hopefully killing him before he steals a tank. In theory this could be very useful. On Metro, you can bring the dog with you into the alley ways and have him help you kill an enemy soldier. Good dog.

The dog's "weapon" should kill standard soldiers in 2 "hits," 2 lunges. So, dog runs up to enemy soldier while enemy soldier is shooting it, dog takes damage but still makes it, Bite attack, second later, 2nd bite attack, and the enemy soldier is dead. If the dog gets lucky and bites the head, headshot damage multiplier should apply. If the enemy soldier gets lucky and has good aim and manages to shoot the dog in the head, he should be able to fend off one Dog with only suffering one bite. Basically: with quick reflexes, a Rifle Soldier should be able to gun down a dog that he sees coming a mile away. But in close quarters the Dog has the advantage. Say the Dog is guarding the War Factory interior? As soon as an enemy soldier rounds a corner, the dog will pounce him without much effort, the soldier doesn't have enough time to shoot back.

As for player controlled dogs? Meh. I like the whole AI idea better. As for Apocalypse Rising playable dogs being troublesome to balance? Maybe axe that feature altogether, and instead, regulate Dogs as limited AI companions just like my idea here.

What do you think? Playing as a spy, you'd have to be much more careful, and learn the sight range of the AI dogs. Wait till the dog is alone, then silence pistol headshot kill it before it notices you. The AI could be adjusted so that it is not omniscient, although I'm not sure how well you can fine tune the AI's guard logic. Is it possible to sneak up behind an AI player? Does the AI player only see whats in front of it? In Interim Apex, I've seen the AI react to enemy shooting. A coordinated team could distract the dogs by full frontal assault, luring the dog outside of the building, to allow the spy to sneak in. Possibilities would be cool.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Mezmerize

[Raap]

10 hours ago, OWA said:

Whilst three teams are somewhat possible, making the third team perform the same as the other two teams would require some work. It's not that simple unfortunately.

One of my long-standing W3D 'pet issues' (see wut? yes you did! good boy), has to be how teams are essentially hard coded.

Everywhere you look the game keeps referring to GDI and Nod, and I'd absolutely love it if we could simply refer to Team A/B/C/etc as well as un-limit the team limits, purchase roster limits, spawn limits, HUD limits, etc.

Essentially while removing restrictions I'd love to keep the engine and tools themselves "game neutral", to make it more approachable by other people. We'd be one step closer to having an "engine package" that doesn't scream "2001 Renegade mod".

 

@Mezmerize I do think AI controlled dogs is the most logical option, if we had to have dogs. As for the purchase method, APB abandoned separate terminals (exception: A-Bomb due to code limitations). However, W3D 5.x AI is a lot smarter than W3D 4.x (which IA is based on), I'm sure @moonsense715 would be able to spawn a purchased unit (in this case a dog) at a pre-set Kennel and move to it the owner. He can answer that better himself, however.

That still leaves the question; What niche does a dog fill? Spy-sniffing? AP mines make this redundant - unless spies no longer trigger AP mines? And in that case (and as you already said), you need to be able to tell a dog to 'hold position' so it guards a certain radius with target priority on spy/thief units.

I do worry that it might make the game a little more confusing to new players, though. So at the very least, the controls have to be very intuitive, or not be done at all.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Raap

[Mezmerize]

Damn, no more follow up on this? I really think my suggestion is the most logical. Also, Raap, spies have NEVER triggered mines. At least as far as I can remember. So the Attack Dog can be very useful, but with the build caps in place, they cannot be abused.