A Path Beyond APB Delta Map Balance

[Pushwall]

Recently we've actually had an easier way to track map balance than scrounging through server logs. It's been 2 weeks since then so we have a fair bit of data to work with so I figured I'd share it and get some discussion going on how the maps are balanced and how they should change. This could easily have gone in the patch balance thread but this is a big post that will probably get drowned out in a page or two so I figured it should be put in a new topic.

 

Unfortunately I haven't had much time to play recently so I don't have many insights on how the maps are balanced myself. So feel free to speak if you have something to say about certain maps or disagree with my assessments, especially if you actually have been playing a lot!

 

So, ever since the map balance tracker was put into play on the 11th February, here's the rundown of games:

Allied victories: 241 (51.39%)
Soviet victories: 228 (48.61%)

We have to look a little deeper than that though:

• There's been a lot of games played that are smaller than 3v3 - in that case the matches become much more about player skill than how Allies/Soviets/the map is actually balanced, and is very prone to imbalances from one team having one more player than the other.
• Every game of Seamist that lasts the full 20 minutes actually gets counted by the system even if no players are ingame, so that's a lot of faux Allied victories right there!
• There's a couple of games that ended by "server shutdown" - a bit of a misnomer, this is when a map ends early due to a vote or moderator skipping it. This typically happens too early for a match to be considered favourable to either team.
• Games on Rock Trap and Forest of Illusion are not indicative of normal gameplay in the slightest. On RT the only difference between the teams is what rifle you get and on FoI there's no difference at all, victory just comes down to whose team has the better players, which is not what we're looking at. It's possible spawn locations might be off so those maps actually are imbalanced but again they are not part of normal gameplay so I don't really care.
• There were a handful of games on Hostile Waters which I'm discounting as it was in a beta state at the time.

So I've chosen to ignore all games with less than 6 total players, games that ended by shutdown, and games on RT/FoI/HW. 4v2 games and the like are still counted, as this is usually indicative of endgame ragequitters (you can't have 4 people on one team without there having been 3 or 4 people on the OTHER team at some point) or spies. Narrowing the games down as such, we're left with:
Allied victories: 101 (45.91%)
Soviet victories: 119 (54.09%)
Base Destruction victories: 109 (49.55%)
High Score on Timeout victories: 111 (50.45%)

If we're being even more stringent and discounting Fissure/Wasteland due to not being AOW maps, that's 89 Allied (45.88%) and 105 Soviet (54.12%) which is almost the same ratio so who cares.

And a bit more of an in-depth look at each map:

RA_AS_Seamist
10 Allied (71.43%)
4 Soviet (28.57%)
14 Base Destruction
0 High Score

This map kinda has an Allied bias built into it from the nature of the objectives so I'm not sure what can really be done here - maybe Allies need less reinforcements?

RA_Bonsai
5 Allied (35.71%)
9 Soviet (64.29%)
8 Base Destruction
6 High Score
Oh no spy roof flares are such a big problem on this map where Soviets win noticeably more???
There's definitely the known issue of the Radar Dome spy zone not working - this is fixed next build (until then, just jump in the basement, cause the spy zone is actually floating an inch off the ground). I think I'll also deepen the water around the Allied dome hill as that is definitely not an intended base entrance.

RA_CamosCanyon
14 Allied (70%)
6 Soviet (30%)
9 Base Destruction
11 High Score
You know what's funny is that if you go through this whole list you'll notice that most of the maps are Soviet-biased to some degree, be it marginally or significantly. But one Allied-biased map comes along and suddenly there's a furore about it. Hmm.
This map at least has already had a discussion about its imbalance though, and I'm kinda leaning towards the idea of adding a pillbox/flametower on the ore hill, because it would discourage early rocket attacks for both teams, and when vehicles come into play that one defense would pose much more of a problem for the Allies than it would the Soviets.

RA_CoastalInfluence
5 Allied (29.41%)
12 Soviet (70.59%)
8 Base Destruction
9 High Score
Oh no arty spam is such a big problem on this map where Allies rarely win??? Of course, flooding vehicles across that bridge is also pivotal to most of the Soviet victories too. The coast is barely even a concern.

This map needs a considerable reworking to be honest. Something I was thinking of doing was turning the arty spam peninsula into an island with two bridges leading to it, so you can stop vehicles from getting onto it period. Kind of like this area on Red Alert's original Coastal Influence:

Problem then is that Volktillery can still be a thing. I'd probably get rid of the dock too and make it hard for (Soviet) infantry to actually get onto the island, stick a bunch of destructible hedgehogs around the ends of the bridges on the island so you can't just flood arties/v2s across it before anyone has the means to destroy the bridges, and downgrade the coil to 2-3 flame towers. In the upcoming version Destroyers/Missile Subs will destroy bridges a fair bit faster and I'm thinking of decreasing the bridge's hitpoints period so they will go down faster.

RA_Complex
6 Allied (42.86%)
8 Soviet (57.14%)
10 Base Destruction
4 High Score
Not sure this warrants an in-depth look really, more games will have to be played here to determine if there's any real imbalance. This one surprised me a bit though due to the intentionally bad Soviet ore silo placement.

 

RA_Fissure

2 Allied (18.18%)
9 Soviet (81.82%)
1 Base Destruction
10 High Score
Given how many of these victories are high-score based, I feel like a big factor in the Soviet bias here is because flamethrowers actually do sort-of noteworthy damage to building exteriors, and thus can rack up more points than the Allies, who have to use rocket soldiers for this which are useless against infantry. And I'd rather not decrease flamethrower building damage any further than I already have because then they'd see even less use on normal maps. They are getting a splash nerf next version though.

RA_GuardDuty
5 Allied (33.33%)
10 Soviet (66.67%)
11 Base Destruction
4 High Score
This surprised me quite a bit too, I often see the Soviet base getting overrun and Artilleries spamming the Refinery across the river. But I can see how Soviets can be favoured here too, what with V2s doing pretty much the same thing as Artillery but without the need to figure out a trajectory, and Flamermobiles sneaking around doing the combined work of both rocket soldiers and grenadiers. Maybe Flamethrowers should go up to Tech Level 3 (removing them from this map) or Soviet rangers should be dropped entirely? What do you guys think?

RA_KeepOffTheGrass
5 Allied (41.67%)
7 Soviet (58.33%)
3 Base Destruction
9 High Score
Taking a look at the victories list over time this has evened out a bit recently (it was more Soviet-biased a week back) possibly due to the MAD nerf. Aside from that, obviously base destruction is at a low due to the huge size of the bases, that's just how it is.

RA_PacificThreat
4 Allied (33.33%)
8 Soviet (66.67%)
6 Base Destruction
6 High Score
Oh no thieves are such a big problem on this map where the Allies rarely win???

No seriously I'm pretty confused by this too. Granted, over a week ago, naval was heavily biased in the Soviets' favour, but that's not as much the case now. Maybe air's also a problem and longbows should be stronger against subs? Cause now that I think about it, there's not much point in actually getting a longbow on this map. Though in the upcoming version they'll hit buildings a little harder.

 

RA_Pipeline

9 Allied (60%)
6 Soviet (40%)
8 Base Destruction
7 High Score
Not as imbalanced as I'd expected honestly. It's actually teetering on my cutoff point for "this should be played more because it's not clear if there's really an actual imbalance yet".
A few people have asked for Soviet rangers on this map so that Soviets are on equal ground with regards to the vital task of fielding engineers, but that would just create even more problems, as all of the oil pumps (except the one by the allied base obviously) are actually a little closer to the Soviet base than the Allied base to compensate for their lack of a fast transport, and once Shock/Volkov rangers get onto the field the Allies might as well just give up - this is why the only AOW map with Sov rangers happens to also be the only one where top-tier infantry aren't available.

RA_RidgeWar
7 Allied (53.85%)
6 Soviet (46.15%)
6 Base Destruction
7 High Score
Looks like the recent changes have evened things out a bit maybe? Don't really know what else to say here.

RA_StormyValley
9 Allied (56.25%)
7 Soviet (43.75%)
8 Base Destruction
8 High Score
Not sure this warrants an in-depth look really, more games will have to be played here to determine if there's any real imbalance.

 

RA_Under
3 Allied (20%)
12 Soviet (80%)
3 Base Destruction
12 High Score
So wait, who was it who said Phase Tanks should go up to Tech Level 4 because they're soooo good on this map, the most Soviet-biased AOW map thus far?
In the upcoming version I've removed the flame tower overlooking the dock (not the one next to the silo, the one behind that) which should make Allied navy a bit more fearsome. Aside from that, idk, maybe the recent naval rebalances should swing things in the Allies' favour a bit too (of those 3 Allied victories, 2 of them were very recent).

Maybe the coil also needs to go but then what to do with the PP? Surely getting rid of the Gap as well would just help the Sovs even more. And I'm pretty anxious about doing anything that would involve rewriting the visibility system (i.e. removing/adding main buildings).

RA_Wasteland
10 Allied (66.67%)
5 Soviet (33.33%)
5 Base Destruction
10 High Score
Another funny one because normally I see Soviet victories due to Allies getting a mech for their medium tank and proceeding to feed a massive point advantage to the Soviets. Maybe the money crates should go so there's no early Tanyas?

RA_Zama
7 Allied (41.18%)
10 Soviet (58.82%)
9 Base Destruction
8 High Score
Oh no spy roof flares are such a big problem on this map where Soviets win slightly more???
Not sure if any changes are needed here tbh. Maybe bring the Gap Generator forward a bit?

 

Again, feel free to say how you feel about this, share your experiences, what you feel could be done about each map, or if you think I'm wrong about something.

[devilslayersbane]

Seamist:

While I love grabbing a chinook at the end as the soviets to make a “daring” escape, I also feel like the allies getting as many reinforcements as they do is a bit overkill.

 

Bonsai:

I personally haven’t felt any imbalance on this map aside from that stupid turret placement by the Radar dome. I feel it should be a pillbox.

 

Camos Canyon:

I like the idea of the deterrent to Rocket rushes in mid-field. However, I’ve noticed that the sides also tend to have heavy activity early game as well. This tends to work in the Allied favor as the soviet base has worse visibility overall.

 

Costal Influence:

This map doesn’t come on as much when I play, and when I do play it, I always seem to join late-game.

 

Complex:

This is my least favorite map to play on as the Allies. MAD tanks are ordinance sponges when deployed and when you can deploy a crap-ton in an area that ordinance can’t be effectively deployed (the tunnels), you get recoverable games that die really quickly.

 

Fissure:

Maybe a slight increase to M72 splash as well? Just a thought.

 

Guard Duty:

The V2 spam is real. That’s all I can say about this one.

 

Keep of the Grass:

My favorite map thus far. Potentially could benefit from some scripted Air reinforcements? (don’t hate me for liking my hinds)

 

Pipeline:

This is one of the more fun maps, though I do notice a bit of a difficult grind for the soviets. Definitely could use some more plays before action should be taken though.

 

Ridge War:

Nice map balance from what I’ve seen. Though I rarely play as soviets on this map.

 

Under:

This map needs some sort of infantry blockers for the island, or an easier way to get there anyway. After the rocks come down I sit on the backside of it and snipe gunboats for days. Regenerating health makes sure I can stay back there and make it back to re-fill my armor when the need arises.

 

Wasteland:

I’m not a huge fan of this map, I always seem to get stuck on the wrong side of bullshit so I won’t comment on this one.

 

Zama:

Spy roof flares would be a much larger problem if it didn’t take so long to get from one base to another (and not get spotted, spies are bad at spying apparently).

 

General note:

I feel like most of these maps should be played a bit further. On average each map has been played just under 15 times. 15 is a relatively small sample size. It’s good enough to say “ok, there may be something to this” but not enough to say “this is how it is”.

[Pushwall]

Seamist:

While I love grabbing a chinook at the end as the soviets to make a “daring” escape, I also feel like the allies getting as many reinforcements as they do is a bit overkill.

 

If I could make the AI preferentially target a specific kind of unit, I'd probably go "full asshole dungeon master" mode and back up the cheat-mode cruisers with cheat-mode destroyers with rockets that seek out Chinooks all the way across the map. Just to drive home the idea that yes, the Soviets have done fucked up and retreating will not help. (They'd probably get sent to the gulags anyway, AA destroyers would do them a favour.)

 

Keep of the Grass:

My favorite map thus far. Potentially could benefit from some scripted Air reinforcements? (don’t hate me for liking my hinds)

 

Air units would require the visibility system to be rewritten. Under normal circumstances I really hate doing that. Doing that on the most detailed map in the game which already crashes a lot in the editor when writing the vis system just for areas that only ground units can be present in is hellish enough. I'd rather not spend several weeks trying to get a workable vis result from adding air sectors into the mix. Especially since that also means having to manually reapply all the manual fixes that have had to be done to this map's visibility system over the months.

 

Under:

This map needs some sort of infantry blockers for the island, or an easier way to get there anyway. After the rocks come down I sit on the backside of it and snipe gunboats for days. Regenerating health makes sure I can stay back there and make it back to re-fill my armor when the need arises.

 

So make the water behind the island too deep to stand in, gotcha. Granted, it can't be difficult for an Allied player to get onto that island and kill rocket guys either. Medics do wonders in close quarters and have the easiest time of getting to that island with enough health to not die to an RS pistol, due to having a combination of Captain health and Sergeant speed.

 

General note:

I feel like most of these maps should be played a bit further. On average each map has been played just under 15 times. 15 is a relatively small sample size. It’s good enough to say “ok, there may be something to this” but not enough to say “this is how it is”.

 

Fair enough. That's why I'm really only looking at the maps where the imbalance is more than 20%, where it's hard to attribute the discrepancy to random chance.

[Pushwall]

If I could make the AI preferentially target a specific kind of unit

 

What am I saying? I can just make the event destroyers reskinned reteamed SAM sites with new weapons. I can totally do this.

[SarahNautili]

Seamist could do with an excuse for the allies to do something besides sit in the safety of their base or dead outside it, not really having to risk their vehicles at all since a friendly mech or the SD is so close. Maybe some sort of side objective to protect that buys the soviets more time if not protected?

[Alstar]

Seamist:

I think it would be a good idea to cut off a bit ammout of allied reinforcements from LST drop, since they get right now APC and Med from chinook drop in earlier stage of game - which helps alot with preparing for early coordinated tank attacks - esspecialy when most of defense engagements takes place in positions where Htanks/Mammoths have less place to move.

 

Bonsai:

I agree with devilslayersbane, that turrets needs to be changed into pillbox - right now its weakest point in allied defense line, through which soviets can easily access radar dome and even refinery.

 

Camos Canyon:

Soviets have obvious disadvantage which i have pointed out in other topic. I like idea of placing pillbox/ft on top of ore hills.

 

Coastal Influence:

Problem with arty in -previous- release was that soviets had a hard time retaliating to those attacks - esspecialy if they were protected by meds due to uneven ground. Right now V2s can fight off arties without bigger problems and by doing so, giving soviets better control of middle field as long as bridge is still standing. Soviets now can defend easily from most of threats.

 

Complex:

I tend to see games on this map ending with infantry vs infantry due to both factories being destroyed due to rush. I cant see any bigger imbalance on this map honestly, maybe MAD tanks.

 

Ill finnish my report later.

[Raap]

Under becomes a boring drag so often because it is very difficult to destroy the bases. This can be solved by either removing all base defenses and leaving a redundant Power Plant, or by enabling Destroyers/Missile Subs, since those would have the power to actually destroy buildings while bypassing the defenses. Either way, the Soviet Sub Pen Flametower has to go since Attack Subs currently can just camp under it's line of fire and be essentially "safe". Under is currently one of the only maps that you know nearly for certain, is going to last until the time limit expires, and there is little you can do about it unless the skill difference in teams is big... Which is something no map should force upon players to go through.

 

Complex surprises me slightly seeing as when I am playing it, it's mostly Allied victories due to Artillery whoring from the middle of the map (raise your hand if you do this, o/). I'm willing to bet a lot of this comes down to team setup. This is one of those maps that suffers from high economic income however, meaning that the later half of a match ALWAYS comes down to Demo Truck spamming, which in turn contributes to the high base destruction victory numbers. This economic problem is largely at fault by the players not hunting Ore Trucks with infantry, since nobody ever uses the surface infantry passages (likely because it takes too long to destroy an Ore Truck with anything less than three Rocket/RPG's). Perhaps the base defenses near the Ore fields need to be removed, or placed where infantry attacking Ore Trucks don't get murdered by them. Despite all of it, I personally like this map.

 

Bonsai is honestly a mess and I cannot put it any lighter than stating that the Allied base needs a complete redesign. The War Factory is a V2 sponge and it always gets blown up very easily, while the Soviet one is both uphill AND in the rear of the base. The Radar Dome water backdoor should outright become inaccessible by being turned into deep water, and in general the Allied base could do with a few walls for some basic protection (if the Barracks/Silo and War Factory trade places, walls would be high enough to cover some of those buildings). Add to that, that this map is the worst performing map in all of Delta FPS wise (I'm sure it is due to the waterfalls being overkill on particle generation), and you can see why I conclude it to be my least favorite map. It is basically an inferior version of Zama (both maps use a similar layout).

 

That's all I really got to add at this time.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Raap

[Alstar]

Lets continue.

 

Fissure:

Flamethrower OP. That's tl;dr of this map.

 

Guard Duty:

Soviets + flamers/any infantry + rangers + unfortunate defense placement for allies = allied ore silo destroyed whenever soviets gain first dump. Unlike allied side, soviet flamethrowers protects all entrances quite well from those kinds of attacks.

 

KOTG:

No opinion, i barely play on this map.

 

Pacific Threat:

Longbows are useless on this map, unlike hinds. They cant do much right now there - unlike hinds which can not only attack but also prtect the base from ground forces.

 

Pipeline:

IMHO balanced map. Fact of soviets losing is mostly caused by people whining that its not. Allies have just easier job at ambushing and derrick control but nothing more.

 

Ridge War:

Another map i rarely play, so no opinion.

 

Stormy Valley:

I hated that map back in the days of gamma, now i feel its way better. Both teams have a chance to attack bases from behind, both teams can attack and defend well in later stages of game. Balance Approved.

 

Under (soviet control)

Main factor of soviets winning on this map were 2 things: flame thrower at docks and soviets being able to place mines everywhere. No jokes. Soviet mines > allied mines even on field, because that completely denies allied infantry support in field. Adding shocks, soviets have control in field 24/7. Note how rarely game is ended by building destruction just because soviets dont need to do that. They can just camp.

 

Wasteland:

There are money crates on this map? Whaaaaaaaaaaa?

Allied infantry is ruling this map mostly because of medics, thats my opinion. Tanya + bunch of medics is a hell to deal with without at least couple of flamers.

 

Zama:

Only negative experience from this map i had so far were because of... demonoobs. Nothing else, this map is well done.

 

 

PS. Push, I like how you pointed out everything that Master of Preaching, Raging and Anger said that is imbalanced

[Pushwall]

Under or by enabling Destroyers/Missile Subs, since those would have the power to actually destroy buildings while bypassing the defenses.

 

The idea for this map was supposed to be that Naval is not a vital thing to worry about, that you can get by just fine if you lose the NY/pen as long as you can manage to maintain good field control while sacrificing a few people to watch for LSTs. Destroyers/Missubs would probably change that. Probably better to weaken the frontal defenses so that field control actually matters, rather than making naval more important on a map that's already designed to cater to LSTs (which will be even more apparent when that one flame tower goes).

 

Fissure:

Flamethrower OP. That's tl;dr of this map.

 

In the late 2.1 era there was an odd little thing on this map: the Barracks had a different armour type (the same as concrete walls) that made its exterior immune to flamethrowers and bullets. I'm not sure if this was intended or not as it also resulted in rocket soldiers doing about 3x damage and C4 being able to one-shot the building from the outside. Maybe there should be something like that only without the obvious bugs, so then victories go to the team with the biggest kills and most daring MCT attacks rather than the team that whored the outside walls the most?

 

Wasteland:

There are money crates on this map? Whaaaaaaaaaaa?

 

Remember Nuclear Winter? Check around the same area.

 

PS. Push, I like how you pointed out everything that Master of Preaching, Raging and Anger said that is imbalanced

 

It's not just him tbh, all I ever hear about those 4 maps is how X Allied unit is overpowered there. Can't be the case if it doesn't help them win.

[Pushwall]

Some map changes will take some time to do (like turning the CI vehicle spam peninsula into an island) so they might not make it into the next release right away because I don't want to delay it any further. But rest assured that I'll try to do something about them eventually.

[Killing_You]

RA_Fissure

2 Allied (18.18%)

9 Soviet (81.82%)

1 Base Destruction

10 High Score

Given how many of these victories are high-score based, I feel like a big factor in the Soviet bias here is because flamethrowers actually do sort-of noteworthy damage to building exteriors, and thus can rack up more points than the Allies, who have to use rocket soldiers for this which are useless against infantry. And I'd rather not decrease flamethrower building damage any further than I already have because then they'd see even less use on normal maps. They are getting a splash nerf next version though.

 

Is it possible to make both Barracks on this map specifically give 0 points for attacking?

[Pushwall]

Is it possible to make both Barracks on this map specifically give 0 points for attacking?

 

Yeah I can just give them a custom building controller with 0 points for damaging/repairing. Could even jack up the kill points from 250 to 500 to compensate too.

[Pushwall]

Complex surprises me slightly seeing as when I am playing it, it's mostly Allied victories due to Artillery whoring from the middle of the map (raise your hand if you do this, o/). I'm willing to bet a lot of this comes down to team setup. This is one of those maps that suffers from high economic income however, meaning that the later half of a match ALWAYS comes down to Demo Truck spamming, which in turn contributes to the high base destruction victory numbers.

 

A high base destruction rating is not a bad thing IMO, in fact it's a good thing because it means the bases are fragile enough for people to reliably accomplish the intended objective of destroying the base. The fact that demos factor into this so much is probably also heavily connected to the claustrophobic nature of the map that makes it hard to immediately detect and flank demos, not just the high income.

 

Not sure why I bothered listing base destructions for seamist though because the nature of the objectives means that's the only way it can end.

[Death_Kitty]

I hereby resign form this discussion due to overwhelming soviet bias... (wink)

But really, here is a few opinions:

 

Camos Canyon: not having the allies camping your ore truck would be great, though I have had some hilarious wins as soviets (lets just say some ally built a demo while I was inside the WF with a kov...)

 

Pacific threat: Buff bows... I like that...

 

Seamist: I don't like this map... its not vehicles that are the problem, its the rocket soldiers... erase the minelayer, rocket soldiers on the hill make it easy enough to win.

 

Ridge war: Soviets knocking out the barracks AA gun for allies is a major problem... I would like that one made a little harder to get to...

[Pushwall]

So for Under I'm thinking of replacing the Power Plant with a Radar Dome if the coil/gap generator go. It's the only sensible replacement other than the Construction Yard, which is too big to feasibly find room for in either of the bases. And given how the small size of the map usually means that in the field you're spotting a lot of enemies through walls with your radar, this might just be another map where getting rid of enemy radar isn't totally useless. Of course there will be no MRJ because there is nowhere on the map that wouldn't be in jamming range of the Soviet dome.

[SarahNautili]

Honestly, I think Under's problem is that it's just, well, that one main attack route. With the current gap setup, and the lack of Missile subs, the Soviets only have one real attack route, so of course they're gonna have the field *filled* with their tanks and infantry. Which makes the front route suicide for the Allies, and even if they do manage to make a push to the soviet base, there's no way the coil's going down. And the soviets have a similar problem with the allied turrets because there's no way to take them down without being shredded by them.

 

It doesn't help that the cramped quarters make arties and v2's virtually useless - the latter more than the former, since at least arties are somewhat useful on the field killing infantry.

 

So yeah taking out the coil and gap (and hopefully a turret) might make things better... but I've got my doubts.

Edited February 26, 2016 by SarahNautili

[Einstein]

Might need at least a couple flame towers to replace the coil. Its literally the only "gate keeper" for the tunnels and the front entrance.

[Alstar]

It doesn't help that the cramped quarters make arties and v2's virtually useless - the latter more than the former, since at least arties are somewhat useful on the field killing infantry.

 

A bit of disagreement. There is actual blindspot on this map where V2 can freely shoot at allied war factory without using arcing rockets. If allies are pushed on the ramp and kept there by soviets, they are barely capable of reaching that V2 giving soviets significant point advantage due to constant damage dealt to factory.

[harvester]

Under: Don't know about the tesla coil needing to go, the problem is the Soviet units flooding the field attacking harvesters. Since Renegade, the first thing that comes to my mind about Under map is the deadly base defenses and the brave sacrifice & teamwork to take it down.

 

Seamist: The biggest threat to the Soviets other than Cruisers is the rocket soldiers on the hill. Also, I mostly see Soviets buying support vehicles and go solo, only thinking about teamwork and buying tanks when there's 2 minutes left.

 

Pacific Threat: Soviet infantry push is effective against Allies here, Longbows don't much, unlike the Hinds. Soviets have shock troopers, flamethrowers, grenadiers, kapitans and RPGs. The allied infantry that can do real damage are just captains and rocket soldiers (rockets rarely used to attack, unless there's plenty of Hinds).

[Raptor29aa]

Under:

I don't the think the issue is the lack of navy. Although I see that allies have one pill box guarding the whole coastline while soviets have two FTs (this is a small but good place to start). I don't think the coil is to blame either. Most of the time I've noticed that the Killing of the PP is a game changer for either side. If the soviets lose theirs Phase Tanks can spam their base. If the allied PP dies the Soviets can see where to aim the kovtillary and Mammoths, or where to sneak in as a flame solder to do some major damage. Keeping the coasts somewhat open for back door attacks is a game changer for sure.

 

Seamist:

THREE WORDS

Soviet Starting Credits

When the match starts allies lay mines, artillery attack Soviet defenses, I've seen seen s successful tank rush to a coil. If the soviets had enough money for an RS or Caps from the get go, the allies wouldn't be able to intimidate the soviets for the first 5-8min of the map. So by the time allies lose those starting Tanks and soviets can finally afford some some bigger tanks, allies get more tanks.

Allied RS isn't that big of a problem late game if there were a few V2 launchers or some captains on the ground. Late game seamits is usually buy mammoths and demos.

Suggestion remove some trees around the entrances of the Soviet base to allow v2s to hit the allied hill.

 

Guard duty:

Not much I can say about this map except Soviet rangers can mountain climb and bypass allied defenses ending up behind the WF, or that early flame soldier rushes through the refinery tunnel work very efficiently.

 

Keep Off The Grass:

My guess is that allies are surrounded by cliffs leaving the base to almost a 360 degree attack opportunity for Volkov to artillery the base. (Or that the allied war factory is guard by a single pillbox) not sure.

 

Pacific threat:

This One Is Easy. Sam sites have a huge range. As allies if I try to counter a sub with a Long bow I end up being shot down by the Soviet SAMs (they cover the other half of the map). Also submerged vehicles are nearly impossible to kill from the air. Stolen soviet subs are neigh impossible to kill, lol. But seriously thieves on this map are annoying. My other guess would be sneak attacks from flame infantry.

 

Bonsai:

Maybe move up the soviet war factory Or swap places with the radar so as to spread out the base (since the allies base is wider). It would reduce the threat and complaint of flares, but also give allies a more legitimate way of winning besides a lucky flare. As in the current Soviet WF placement is out range for many artillery strikes (unlike the allied counterpart and V2s).

Edited February 26, 2016 by Raptor29aa

[ChopBam]

A definite problem for Allies on Under is when Soviets mine all the field tunnel exits and other openings and then guard the mined entrance of the Allied base with Shock Troopers. The poor guys can't leave their base. Happened today and I felt totally useless.

[Pushwall]

A definite problem for Allies on Under is when Soviets mine all the field tunnel exits and other openings and then guard the mined entrance of the Allied base with Shock Troopers. The poor guys can't leave their base. Happened today and I felt totally useless.

 

Maybe this is a good time to bring clearing charges back?

[Raap]

 

A definite problem for Allies on Under is when Soviets mine all the field tunnel exits and other openings and then guard the mined entrance of the Allied base with Shock Troopers. The poor guys can't leave their base. Happened today and I felt totally useless.

 

Maybe this is a good time to bring clearing charges back?

 

 

To clear the backdoor rock rubble?

[Pushwall]

To clear the backdoor rock rubble?

 

To clear mines.

 

Surely Allies can just take a medic+rockets team to the island and wreak havoc from there though if the Soviets are camping the front door?

[ganein14]

 

To clear the backdoor rock rubble?

 

To clear mines.

 

Surely Allies can just take a medic+rockets team to the island and wreak havoc from there though if the Soviets are camping the front door?

 

Yeah, up until the snipers come out to play.

[ChopBam]

I think it would be to clear mines. Basically engineers can detect them, but what can they do currently? Pistolwhip them? Clearing charges might be a good idea. Maybe even a slightly larger blast radius that'll take care of a small group of mines.

[Raap]

I think it would be to clear mines. Basically engineers can detect them, but what can they do currently? Pistolwhip them? Clearing charges might be a good idea. Maybe even a slightly larger blast radius that'll take care of a small group of mines.

 

That does seem a little gimmicky, but it's up to you guys.

[Pushwall]

Yeah, up until the snipers come out to play.

 

Can't this same argument be made against shock trooper camping? They don't even heal to full almost instantly from any non-headshot damage.

That does seem a little gimmicky, but it's up to you guys.

 

If you want gimmicky, see the Golden Wrench's secondary function in Gamma. I think maybe 10 out of the several thousand players actually knew that it was a minesweeper and most of them just never used it because Allied engineers had to be standing in an AP mine's blast radius for the wrench to blow it up. Clearing charges would be pretty transparent in their function from their name and would actually give players time to get out of death range. Though they do bring the Engineer's weapon count up from 4 to 5 and it's awkward enough to switch through all that at times.

[ganein14]

 

Yeah, up until the snipers come out to play.

 

Can't this same argument be made against shock trooper camping? They don't even heal to full almost instantly from any non-headshot damage.

 

Not when the only place you can is being whored by V2 rockets. That or they're hiding just out of sight just enough for you to come into their range and fry your ass.

[Pushwall]

Actually probably a better idea would be to delete those deep snow meshes. They do not play well with mines at all because the only things that can hit a mine buried completely inside them are things with penetrative splash damage (arties, v2s, flamers, and that's it)