Games [Game Over] The July Crisis Mafia

[Retaliation]

Oh and I feel for you chaos, we went through the same this summer with our dog :(.

[VERTi60]

1 hour ago, Nodlied said:

Did Verti make the winning shot? Yes. Was he right about Fraydo being scum? Nah, not really.

Are you kidding me? I wasn't right about Fraydo? Kane himself? Do you realize that lynching Fraydo, aka Kane, would stop not just one WW1, but also WW2 (RA) and possibly all three Tiberium Wars (not counting 4th)??????

Do you know how many died during WW1 and all the other C&C wars? I don't know exactly, but the difference would be in billions! Yes, you've made Kane as non objective guy for town, but his lynch would certainly be a big bonus, a crown achievement for the task force, plus a big game plot twist.  Also, his objective was to protect the Black Hand, so it still kinda contradicts with town.

 

1 hour ago, Nodlied said:

One of the most interesting docs was the final one with Cat5 where they plotted the demise of Verti60.

Those sneaky little good-for-nothings! I sensed a combined hostility from them the whole time (which made me furious btw) but I never thought they would literary conspire together to kill me. Well, all the trolling and headaches coming their way from me was all accounted for then  I still managed to beat them before they could do it

 

1 hour ago, Nodlied said:

Verti60 managed to hoard most items in the game. He only lacked a few but due to his grand collection, he could do a lot of things, even if the power started to corrupt him.

I don't want to brag, but not only I've collected all items from scratch, but I've also managed to use them ALL better than their original owners. This includes typewriter, grenade, pistol and spyglass.

Yes it's a shame I couldn't have them all but my hoarding fetish was a "little" bit stress on town's victory condition, and even though I could steal them from Retal during last night (or cat5 if I wanted the gun prior KY), I've decided not to for the sake of town's victory (which I almost regretted before KY's death and after those two band wagon-ed me).

(once again people I've made this objective by myself, to make the game harder and challenging, it was in no way Nodlied's condition for me)

 

1 hour ago, Nodlied said:

I'm personally of the opinion that the experimental set-up was a success. Beyond the standard mafia win conditions and its mechanics (which were locked behind the tension limit) we also had the new tension and evidence mechanics that allowed for alternative victories. This allowed for a game where nobody had to die if the players wished it so.

First of all I really liked your Frankenstein-monster of a mechanics game system. :D It turned out well, but I have few comments.

So nobody had to die, ok, but where's the fun in that? Just like in the Staplerfahrer's edition APB Mafia, where nobody had to die because of voe's gimmick to turn everyone scummy neutral, players still desired blood. I've also learned that in couple of other games where killing wasn't necessary, players still went the bloody way.  It's almost guaranteed that players will die if you give them the means to do it. Even Cat5 wanted a no-kill victory yet by the end conspired to kill me. I don't blame him, but still.

 

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World tension went very well and if KY had at least tried to steal some things more often, the world tension would have put a lot more pressure on town, relieving scum. But what if scum decided to ''stay innocent''? Well, that's where lynching came into view. Many of you managed to at least figure out part of the world tension, which was enough by design of the game as you shouldn't have known or even tried to understand all modifiers fully, as that would have resulted in wasted time.

WT mechanic (btw we had similar mechanic in Dead Space 3 RPG Mafia with the Marker meter signalizing the Convergence Event, which I personally liked the most. Also similar to the last timed APB Mafia, I like to have 2nd winning condition applied which both controls the game from taking too long and on the other side, it also grants players secondary win conditions, while putting pressure on them.

I just wish you had made some clearer notes how it works, or grant some players clues that would reveal over time (similar to evidence). Hence players could plan a bit instead of being in the dark the whole game. You can't really stop players trying to figure out game mechanics. It will always be the number 1 part of discussion, so making it very hard on all fronts (including scum perspective) isn't really good for the game flow. It's better to put up some known facts, but still keep some in secret, so that not all actions could be planned ahead, or at least make some plans fail because of it (that's always the best part, hehehe). But hiding and restricting everything just makes the game a bit slow paced, and the victory is achieved usually just by a rare chance, not by collected clues or real detective/scum hunting work (similar to this case too where it was a big guess by the end).

 

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What about the status system? Well, it was obvious that actual hostile actions equaled more suspicion points. But most of that system was hidden away and there were a few things that would have kept it from being figured out totally.

Status system and investigations was probably taken from Death Note investigations, but I also recall we had investigation mechanic in other games (Dead Space too). The way you introduced hidden mechanics that would modify the statuses dynamically was brilliant, and also evil at the same time  Probably it could also lead to some train wrecks, but I would have to analyze it a bit more to be sure. I'm guessing you did some testing scenarios with this?

 

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The evidence mechanics, however, were meant to be understood rather easily. You were pretty much set on the amount of true and fake evidence rather quickly but became a bit stuck on how both types of evidence were found. There wasn't any fake evidence creator or planter but it was a bit more complicated than ''fake evidence = scum, real evidence = not scum'' as some pieces required two players of a certain type of group to be investigated. The spyglass had its own tracker to prevent a potential evidence steamrole by day 4.

This explains a lot. 

 

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Were there some issues though? Most certainly. Town had really powerful roles and scum was thrown under the bus by KY's lack of nightactions. No blame on KY though, he had his strategy and went with it. Still, I think that it went well enough as a WT game end was still possible by the end of the game.

I agree with KY being under-powered, you could've just make him a sleeping SK, waiting to get orders in time. Or directly as a Kane's disciple. Then again if he would be more patient and less aggressive, I would believe his claim as neutral. But seeing how he was active and trying to get me all the time, I didn't buy his neutrality claims. So partially his fault as well, not just game's. But I agree that the grenade was mostly useless for him, in the end it turned up to be his downfall :D The grenade could be a sidearm though or something better, which would be a one time kill only weapon to get rid of the last objective. Or have a possibility of chain reaction.

 

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So, what about Voe then? It was his first time as a co-mod or any kind of GM and I think he did well enough. He made a few small mistakes that I fixed when I saw them and they didn't affect the game too much. The gun was a bit different, as he felt that he needed to lower the unlock on the gun due to an earlier miscalculation and the actions already made because of that miscalculation. It was one of the things that effected the game but I don't believe that I could have done anything about it anymore once I arrived back in the game. Finally, I could have written down some clearer instructions.  I'm not surprised that it caused some confusion every now and then.

The gun was certainly very confusing. Nowhere on it was written that the targets had to be investigated and only their last known status counts (not their current one). It created a paradox where I couldn't even kill myself and it also caused the whole sherade with the gun bluffing/gun usage  It was only partially voe's fault, partially it was the instructions, and finally yes voe made a mistake with the spyglass and WT after KY died. But I approve that he managed to fix the gun locked rating. That was fair from him but also kinda affected the whole game as well. It was funny when he changed it exactly after I actually fake shot Retal (that shot was bluff) :D 

Then again I can only thank voe and you that the last gunshot was approved.

 

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My ending verdict? I'd say the set-up is a success. I had a lot of fun and I saw a lot of interesting ideas floating around in the posts made by you guys. It wasn't perfectly balanced, but I believe that it has potential and I most certainly enjoyed it a lot. It was a lot of work (just check all the bloody docs) but I got used to it and found my way through. I hope you guys enjoyed it as well, despite some of the shortcomings (and I believe that you did, but I'll see your verdict later).

It's a lot of work and responsibility. Therefore I only do these games when I have absolutely all the time in the world and/or I can afford it both mentally and physically. But I know how hard it is when IRL issues kick in when you certainly don't need them

Anyway except for the few days, you were pretty much active GM. I was trying to help you end the game as soon as possible. Once again thanks for the interesting game.

[VERTi60]

2 hours ago, Retaliation said:

At the end we could have tried for one, but that required us to trust Vert who managed to erode an entire game's worth of trust in a single day.

You should always think and decide logically in these games. Do you think I would've been jumping up and down, weaving gun and calling you idiots if I was scum? Do you believe scum is trying to look scummy like this? Scum usually always play active but at the same time they try to lay as low as possible (look at Orange and CK, they appeared to be active but had very low participation in all conflicts). Also you should judge by actions and known facts, not by player reactions (which I like to do for the dramatic effect anyway, or simply trolling players - I mean trolling cat5, jeod or voe is always the best fun).

 

2 hours ago, Retaliation said:

So there have been a lot of comments in the doc on how we kind of ignored going for an evidence victory, but I think we had a bad start to try for one. Of our first 3 pieces of evidence only one was true, the spyglass never did anything until scum was already on the ropes, 2 investigations where there was no evidence, and FRAYDO stole a piece of evidence (and the spyglass).

As I've said and proven to be right, the scum hunting was a lot easier solution then collecting evidence. First of all we didn't know how the evidence system works, and even though I've tried to figure it out by the end to pinpoint last scum it was still non conclusive, and it was mainly a work of coincidence. Hence I was pushing to lynch the most scummy targets first.

[OrangeP47]

Reading the docs now:  ChopBam, I thought you meant my slip was when I said "for town", and didn't include myself as town, basically, with the tone of that post.  The 25% remark was 100% because 25 is 1/4 of 100% which makes it a logical number for stuff to happen at  I was really, really curious as to when Retal and Irish would activate, but I actually had no clue. 

[Retaliation]

2 hours ago, OrangeP47 said:

Reading the docs now:  ChopBam, I thought you meant my slip was when I said "for town", and didn't include myself as town, basically, with the tone of that post.  The 25% remark was 100% because 25 is 1/4 of 100% which makes it a logical number for stuff to happen at  I was really, really curious as to when Retal and Irish would activate, but I actually had no clue. 

Even I was thinking 25% was when actions were going to start being unlocked. I'm kind of surprised that in the end I was the only whose ability interacted with an in game event rather than just WT.

[ChopBam]

60% isn't exactly a round number, though.

[TheIrishman]

5 hours ago, Jeod said:

Bonus points, you all hate Verti for winning.

Not really, he followed the first step of my plan anyway, regardless if he wanted to go through with the rest. Feels like a proper win to me.

I didn't think I was that inactive and when I tried to push stuff, like Orange's lynch, I pushed pretty hard (though to be fair I knew he was lying :b).

[TheIrishman]

Overall it felt like a pretty good game. So far I'm 4/4 in wins, 3/4 in not dying, and 4/4 in scum calls. Not too shabby  I'm a little confused on why CK didn't NK more, unless he couldn't both nightkill and track. KY, even if he wasn't roleblocked, I protected Cat5 that night as well :b Thanks, Nodlied, for all your effort. Gonna read the docs now.

[Killing_You]

My strategy was as follows:

Step 1. Get rid of the grenade.

Step 2. Get myself investigated to prove my innocence, along with a mostly-true roleclaim.

Step 3. Snag myself the gun.

Step 4. Eliminate the remaining Austro-Hungarians via whatever means necessary.

Step 2 was the crux of my plan, and to be honest I was getting rather impatient, which is partly why I went after Verti that one day. (Everything else afterwards was me reacting to him antagonizing me. Didn't expect him to bulldog me like that when I said that I had made a mistake pushing for his investigation). I was pretty much ready to accept defeat when I finally got investigated, and if it weren't for Verti's overzealousness, I would've pushed for a Retal investigation (from a "take-one-for-the-team" perspective), and then shot Cat5 the following day. 

To be fair, though, I had no idea if locking up a Hostile counted toward my objective or not, and after FRAYDO's second investigation I thought he was Austro-Hungarian, too. I did feel a bit underpowered, but I had fun, so eh.

[Category 5 Hurricane]

"This whole game so far is “Town is right but for ALL the wrong reason”."

Quote of the game right there. Pretty much everything the town ever got right, was for invalid reasons. That's impressive.

[Category 5 Hurricane]

I greatly enjoyed this setup. Indeed, a setup where is was possible for town to win without anyone being killed is fascinating.

While I can see the complaints from the scum about being underpowered, I would counter that anti-town combined for a total of 40%, and things would have been a whole hell of a lot different if OrangeP47 was not hostile when he was investigated. We'd eventually crossed the 60% marker with none of the anti-town members actually removed from the game. Scum was in a bad position because of the correct actions of town (invalid as they were) and there isn't a whole lot a GM can do to balance things when town uses so many of it's chances to stop scum correctly.

[FRAYDO]

Wew, what a game! Just got done going through all the docs and links. No hard feelings Killing_You? I feel like I gave you a lot of sh*t this go around. Know I have nothing but love for you and everyone here. I loved playing this, so thank you Nodlied. Shout out to Voe for co-modding.

[FRAYDO]

7 hours ago, VERTi60 said:

Are you kidding me? I wasn't right about Fraydo? Kane himself? Do you realize that lynching Fraydo, aka Kane, would stop not just one WW1, but also WW2 (RA) and possibly all three Tiberium Wars (not counting 4th)??????

Do you know how many died during WW1 and all the other C&C wars? I don't know exactly, but the difference would be in billions! Yes, you've made Kane as non objective guy for town, but his lynch would certainly be a big bonus, a crown achievement for the task force, plus a big game plot twist.  Also, his objective was to protect the Black Hand, so it still kinda contradicts with town.

Oh but dear Verti, you forget one thing.

[Mojoman]

I really did like the game mechanics. I still don't fully understand evidence though.

It woulda also been nice if you couldn't send the same person to the vault night after night.

[Killing_You]

25 minutes ago, FRAYDO said:

Wew, what a game! Just got done going through all the docs and links. No hard feelings Killing_You? I feel like I gave you a lot of sh*t this go around. Know I have nothing but love for you and everyone here. I loved playing this, so thank you Nodlied. Shout out to Voe for co-modding.

No hard feelings, mang. The only person who even slightly annoyed me this game was Verti60, and even then, tis just a game.

[Category 5 Hurricane]

It isn't a mafia game if I'm not yelling at VERTi60 over something.

[Chaos_Knight]

10 hours ago, TheIrishman said:

 I'm a little confused on why CK didn't NK more, unless he couldn't both nightkill and track.

Well duh. Of course I couldn't.

9 hours ago, Category 5 Hurricane said:

"This whole game so far is “Town is right but for ALL the wrong reason”."

Quote of the game right there. Pretty much everything the town ever got right, was for invalid reasons. That's impressive.

Heheh. Impressive indeed, yet also sad and true.  

15 hours ago, Retaliation said:

Oh and I feel for you chaos, we went through the same this summer with our dog :(.

Thanks. Eh, she's pretty old so in a way we weren't surprised really.

8 hours ago, Category 5 Hurricane said:

Scum was in a bad position because of the correct actions of town (invalid as they were) and there isn't a whole lot a GM can do to balance things when town uses so many of it's chances to stop scum correctly.

Honestly, IMO, it was going relatively fair enough balance-wise until Vert was allowed to get away with basically 2 fake actions + changed conditions on the gun (WT requirment down 75 to 70) due to GM error when resolving an action. If GM error didn't happen, this game would've been still going.  

[VERTi60]

9 hours ago, FRAYDO said:

Oh but dear Verti, you forget one thing.

BUT YOU CAN SURE CON-CANE HIM! TEHEHEHE

 

1 hour ago, Chaos_Knight said:

Honestly, IMO, it was going relatively fair enough balance-wise until Vert was allowed to get away with basically 2 fake actions + changed conditions on the gun (WT requirment down 75 to 70) due to GM error when resolving an action. If GM error didn't happen, this game would've been still going.  

Well I would never pull the gun shenanigans if it wasn't unlocked. So first voe unlocked the gun because of the derped WT and I thought I could use it, then he locked it, so I had to bluff. When I bluff shot Retal, voe unlocked the gun. SO it was a bit of a roller coaster and I didn't know how exactly the gun worked until FRAYDO attempt. So to be fair non of the actions were fake but the first shot I thought would be.

 

Also Chaos! I wanted to use the grenade at you one phase but kinda forgot I didn't use it. It was because Jeod did the same and I thought he found something on you So if you would get the KY's result the game could have also end a lot earlier too

[VERTi60]

37 minutes ago, Chaos_Knight said:

Thanks. Eh, she's pretty old so in a way we weren't surprised really.

Sorry to hear that. We knew her very well from all the barfs on TS :D

[Nodlied]

Thanks for the comments everyone! I'll take all feedback into account for a potential next game. Glad to hear everyone liked it.

I have some ideas for a next game, including improvements, but I haven't got a clue as to when I can possibly host one. (Perhaps next summer?)

[Jeod]

Just now, Nodlied said:

Thanks for the comments everyone! I'll take all feedback into account for a potential next game. Glad to hear everyone liked it.

I have some ideas for a next game, including improvements, but I haven't got a clue as to when I can possibly host one. (Perhaps next summer?)

Oh hey, I forgot to comment. I did enjoy watching this one! Shame I died too soon.

[OrangeP47]

8 minutes ago, Jeod said:

Oh hey, I forgot to comment. I did enjoy watching this one! Shame I died too soon.

I felt bad I didn't technically die so I couldn't keep you company.

[Voe]

5 hours ago, VERTi60 said:

When I bluff shot Retal, voe unlocked the gun.

I was making a post explaining the gun error to stop Vertigo from potentially blowing up the game by misguiding the town into lynching him (not the wording i'd have used). 

However, as I was already previewing my post, he used the ##shoot command.

I could have either let him shoot Retal indeed, or punish him for using fake actions (and blowing up the game through my own moderation error). Which one would you prefer?

[VERTi60]

Yea if I was investigated the game would end due to WT. And I kinda knew that so it was all or nothing ;p

[Chaos_Knight]

15 hours ago, Voe said:

or punish him for using fake actions (and blowing up the game through my own moderation error). Which one would you prefer?

Well the ideal solution would've been to not derp WT from the get go but alas. And game kinda "blew up" anyway, didn't it?  
Oh well.

[Voe]

On 8/26/2017 at 1:12 PM, Chaos_Knight said:

Well the ideal solution would've been to not derp WT from the get go but alas. And game kinda "blew up" anyway, didn't it?  
Oh well.

I'm sorry, ive been resolving the night for 4 hours after coming home at 10pm. Next time I'll just extend the night for another 24 hours because why bother.

[Chaos_Knight]

15 minutes ago, Voe said:

I'm sorry, ive been resolving the night for 4 hours after coming home at 10pm. Next time I'll just extend the night for another 24 hours because why bother.

It's not that I am ungrateful for the game or anything, just ending (and how it was handled) left a bit of a bad aftertaste.

[Voe]

1 minute ago, Chaos_Knight said:

It's not that I am ungrateful for the game or anything, just ending (and how it was handled) left a bit of a bad aftertaste.

We will never know how it would have ended otherwise.