A Path Beyond Remove rooftop access from buildings?

[Pushwall]

I'm feeling more and more that the building ladders aren't really that beneficial for gameplay.

While they do make a good defensive position for infantry against tanks in the middle of your base, the thing is, normally people only use their own rooftops for defense when they're losing badly enough that they can't make a comeback, so it just draws out the game. Or because they're snipers - a unit that could probably stand to be a little better in general and not need to rely on high ground so much. Or the Sub Pen which I'll discuss a little more later.

They make scouting on the smaller maps like Guard Duty/River Raid even easier than it needs to be. A captain/sniper can just stand on their own WF/Ref roof and scope straight to the enemy base while ignoring all the rock/prop/foliage cover that people on ground can't see around, and bam, all rushes instantly visible without even exposing your neck.

Mostly though they are a haven for killwhores, make units like Volkov/Tanya difficult to balance for their intended purpose, and either make a-bomb flares guarded by a grand total of one person require half a team to stop, or lull newbies into a false sense of security where they think they can fend off half a team from up there like the pros can or that nobody will ever notice a flare up here!!! but just end up feeding the enemy flare disarm points on a silver platter. It's why NBNW got convenient boxes placed around its Refinery ladders - to minimise the places where you could put an OP flare. (And looking at similar blockades on the new Hostile Waters, I think Raap sees the ladders as a liability too.)

As far as I can tell, the only reason Chronojam really wanted ladders back when he was in charge, was to solve the problem of people losing helis over enemy rooftops and walking around on them wrecking everything while nigh-invincible - which was against the rules back when ladders didn't exist. And there's another solution that works without forcing rooftop engagements: coating the rooftop in a mesh that damages infantry. The Radar Dome already has this (though it didn't back under the CJ plan...) since the shape of its roof doesn't exactly make it plausible to add an access ladder. It'd be easy to do the same for every other building.

The only thing I can really see being problematic if building ladders are removed, is that it'd give RPGs a lot less room to defend the Sub Pen from gunboats and no room against destroyers - not being able to put infantry in front of the Sub Pen or Advanced Sub Pen means their rooftops get used for defense far, far more frequently than other buildings. So some solution would have to be found for that. Maybe some sort of internal staircase with a team-locked door that leads to the roof like on the Airfield? Or just leave it as the only building with ladders? Since the Sub Pen is out of range of most of the rest of the base, has 4 rooftop access points, and leaves enemies on it cornered since the pen is mostly surrounded by water, it's not a very appealing rooftop for Allies to hang out on anyway.

Anyway. discuss. Maybe there's something I'm missing

[Killing_You]

Personally, I've always liked having ladders on buildings. WHile I don't use them 100% of the time, they do provide a nice home advantage, especially for snipers and rocket soldiers.

I think the only real issue is with the roof flare, and even that I think can be solved by making rooftops for certain buildings only accessible by members of the team (I say certain because I don't think the Barracks has enough height to provide that big of an advantage), and perhaps only from the inside. Honestly speaking, though, the ladders do provide some flexibility and I'd rather not see them go.

[Pushwall]

14 minutes ago, Killing_You said:

I think the only real issue is with the roof flare, and even that I think can be solved by making rooftops for certain buildings only accessible by members of the team

ChopBam said pretty much the same thing when I hinted at this in staff chat and the problem there is you can't team lock ladders. So it'd have to be team locked doors - which, fair enough, and we can even make a different lock for those which spies can't access.

The Refinery used to have an internal rooftop access in Delta's prerelease so it wouldn't be too difficult to re-add that, and an internal elevator to the roof could probably be made for the Power Plant. The problem would be doing this for the War Factory and Construction Yard which don't really have anywhere where one can place a roof door without divulging too much from the building's RA appearance.

However, having the rooftops only accessible to their own team instead of both teams or neither team, presents a different problem. Defender's advantage becomes even more robust than it already is. If a bunch of rocket soldiers are camping the roof of a dead building and you can't climb it with a shotgunner or something to force them to flee or die, that area of the map is just entirely off-limits to vehicles unless you have enough V2s/Arties behind your assault to catch them off guard.

[Killing_You]

Just now, Pushwall said:

ChopBam said pretty much the same thing when I hinted at this in staff chat and the problem there is you can't team lock ladders. So it'd have to be team locked doors - which, fair enough, and we can even make a different lock for those which spies can't access.

That would be nice.

Just now, Pushwall said:

The Refinery used to have an internal rooftop access in Delta's prerelease so it wouldn't be too difficult to re-add that, and an internal elevator to the roof could probably be made for the Power Plant. The problem would be doing this for the War Factory and Construction Yard which don't really have anywhere where one can place a roof door without divulging too much from the building's RA appearance.

You could probably make them elevators with team-locked hatched- which would actually give that second floor on the CY some purpose. And, I think with some creativity, we could make it fit without worrying too much about divulging too much. If you'd like, I can draw up some concepts later and post them internally.

Just now, Pushwall said:

However, having the rooftops only accessible to their own team presents a different problem. Defender's advantage becomes even more robust than it already is. If a bunch of rocket soldiers are camping the roof of a dead building and you can't climb it with a shotgunner or something to force them to flee or die, that area of the map is just entirely off-limits to vehicles unless you have enough V2s/Arties behind your assault to catch them off guard.

Alright then, how about this: Keep the exterior ladders that can be accessed by anyone, but also add the team locked doors/elevators. This would allow people to retaliate against defenders while still providing a home field advantage. And yes, I know people would camp the team doors, but honestly I don't see that as an issue. Players wouldn't be dealing with the restrictions that come with a ladder, and it'd be the same as the MCT rooms in the Barracks, WF, Sub Pen, and so on.

[Ice]

Ladders were a good addition to the buildings, they improve the versatility of gameplay and give players (both friendly and enemy) additional routes and options for attacking and defending. IMO they never really caused any problems (at least, none that didn't already exist in some form anyway) and should not be removed. To do so would be a step backwards, and would not be an improvement. No need to remove them or make them team-only or add elevators or other complex workarounds, just leave it as-is. It's fine as it is.

A team-only roof access from the inside, however, (i.e. Re-adding that door that the Ref used to have, and adding a ladder-access to the Factory roof with a team-locked hatch) would be a good idea to explore, but leave the exterior ladders as they are.

[Pushwall]

17 minutes ago, Killing_You said:

Alright then, how about this: Keep the exterior ladders that can be accessed by anyone, but also add the team locked doors/elevators. This would allow people to retaliate against defenders while still providing a home field advantage. And yes, I know people would camp the team doors, but honestly I don't see that as an issue.

It'd certainly be harder to camp than the perpetual loop of climb ladder halfway, receive an all-you-can-eat buffet of colt/kovshotty headshots from above that you can't dodge due to the engine's quirkly ladder mechanics, rinse and repeat and ragequit.

[Pushwall]

Anyway @Killing_YouI'd like to see those concepts. SarahNautili brought up the idea of ramps fort certain roofs as well, which I personally think would only work for the WF due to its width compared to its height and not having any immediately obvious outlets for roof doors. Besides maybe a door at the back of the second floor which then ramps/staircases up to the roof from there?

[Einstein]

RIP me.

In beta, I was that guy.....the one that always got kicked for heli-bailout -> rooftop camping.

[Mojoman]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

RIP me.

In beta, I was that guy.....the one that always got kicked for heli-bailout -> rooftop camping.

The good old days.

[Mojoman]

I really like ladders to be honest. As has been said already, it's extra routes for attack / defense by players, I like the options.

5 hours ago, Pushwall said:

However, having the rooftops only accessible to their own team instead of both teams or neither team, presents a different problem. Defender's advantage becomes even more robust than it already is. If a bunch of rocket soldiers are camping the roof of a dead building and you can't climb it with a shotgunner or something to force them to flee or die, that area of the map is just entirely off-limits to vehicles unless you have enough V2s/Arties behind your assault to catch them off guard.

If a bunch of rocket soldiers are camping on the roof of a dead building;

1. You can generally hide behind other buildings / cover
2. If you do have an arty/v2 they're just sitting ducks
3. If they're just sitting up there waiting for vehicles, those shotgunners can just run to another building's MCT and kill it, given that the rocket soldiers would either have to slowly go down the ladder, or jump off and take a lot of damage or die.

I like the idea of keeping the current ladders and adding a team ladder / elevator / door. As said above, the door would probably be camped, but at least if there's a hatch or door, that's a lot more room to move around and you can get into a more fair fight without getting headshot repeatedly. It also gives room for flanking the enemy, where one person goes up the team route, and another person goes the open route. So even if the enemy runs and kills the guy going up the open ladder, they'd have their back / side turned to the enemy coming from inside.

Or maybe the flare thing needs tweaking. Since you essentially need a non-combat unit to go up the ladder to disarm the flare, which requires the engineer / techie to take on a Tanya / Volkov (usually ends badly), kill the Tanya / Volkov and then purchase a techie / engineer to disarm the flare (time), or have a team member in waiting to run up while the enemy is engaged in a firefight / already dead (But usually a flare isn't placed while a bunch of players are just sitting around in the base, meaning the personnel available is limited).

[Einstein]

Just now, Mojoman said:

Or maybe the flare thing needs tweaking.

Got anything specific in mind?

[ChopBam]

Would short-range security guns on the roofs affect performance much?

[FRAYDO]

6 hours ago, Pushwall said:

 

I actually agree with all of the above. Scouting is far too easy on the small maps. Those rooftop spotters essentially make most if not all infantry rushes null and void. There's no use to moving under the natural cover when the enemy has already seen you from their base.

By removing roof access, Zama would benefit so much from it and become less Allied-bias. Those spy flares on the Refinery roof hit hard. Not that it can't be achieved on Bonsai and elsewhere, but Zama has been the biggest offender of this.

I'm for the Naval Yard/Sub Pens being the only building with rooftop access. Cut the rest.

[Mojoman]

Just now, Einstein said:

Got anything specific in mind?

Not much off the top of my head to be honest.

Any change to the timing either will make flares useless (an extra 10-15 seconds makes it too easy to disarm, less time makes it too hard), reducing damage to buildings sort of negates the point (Why try to sneak in and use this if it doesn't kill anything and gives the enemy a bunch of points if they disarm it?).

Then again, maybe they could have damage reduced on buildings, but increased on units. So instead of just, oh hey there goes our barracks and War Factory because of a flare, GG, the A-bomb essentially obliterates infantry and vehicles in the entire base, leaving a brief period where the enemy would be very open to an assault. I know this has been the opposite of what patches have done (I believe some vehicle armour has been made more resistant to A-bombs?), but rather than this 1-hit GG, it could make flares into a really good support weapon.

It would also discourage the 'lone wolf' style with flares. Where you just buy your Jeep and Tanya and head off on your own, instead you'd have to coordinate with your team to launch an assault.

This might also be a lot of work though, considering building cover and terrain types affect how much the bomb damages I believe? Also when anything isn't OP offensive in this game is tends not to get used as much (See the history of medics).

Not trying to hijack the thread with this at all. But tweaks to the flare system may also discourage a lot of roof camping.

[Pushwall]

5 hours ago, FRAYDO said:

I actually agree with all of the above. Scouting is far too easy on the small maps. Those rooftop spotters essentially make most if not all infantry rushes null and void. There's no use to moving under the natural cover when the enemy has already seen you from their base.

If roof access stays, an alternative to this would be removing binoculars from Captains and giving them back to Tanya/Volkov, but then that opens back up the can of worms of accidentally selecting the binocs when you wanted to select something else, since Tanya/Volkov have 2 things to switch between depending on the situation and the Captain doesn't...

Or maybe a much weaker zoom on the binocs so the sniper is better at scouting than the captain (but still has binocs for marking purposes)

[Pushwall]

4 hours ago, Mojoman said:

Flare stuff

That'd need at least a 50% reduction in damage though. Flares do 1000 damage and buildings have 500 health. And if a flare placed directly on top of a building doesn't even kill it... that just encourages double flares even harder because if a flare doesn't kill a building but kills infantry even harder, that's a ton of enemies respawning at once which makes it incredibly likely that an engineer or two will pop up right next to the MCT of the building you just weakened and fix it up before you can infiltrate. (But at least means disarming one of the 2 double flares actually matters.) And with low enough damage to not kill a building it's planted on, let's be real, it's not going to noticeably hurt any of the other buildings further away. Oh, and it'd make ground-level flares even worse - forcing roof flares. A building 33% of the way away from the flare's splash centre, is going to take 33% less damage. Which isn't an issue when that 33% less is still more than the building's max health. It might be better if I jack up the damage but turn down the blast radius so it can't kill as many buildings at once - the thing with double flares currently, which your idea would also solve, is it doesn't matter if you disarm one but not the other, the other will take out half your base anyway.

[Jeod]

The scouting doesn't seem like a big problem since both teams have access to the height, save for Zama. Because of that, Zama needs a look, not rooftop access. Add some taller trees to obscure the scouting view from the Allied base or something.

As for ladder camping, if we have people willing to edit the building models, why not replace the ladders with good old-fashioned industrial/cold war era fire escapes? Those still allow freedom of movement as opposed to the vertical lock that comes with ladders.

[Einstein]

35 minutes ago, Jeod said:

....Zama needs a look, not rooftop access.

Interesting thought.

Not to derail, but what if we did look at some balancing here? A few will remember that the RenAlert (APB Alpha) version of this map had some tunnels and a cavern too I believe. What if we added an underground area like was on Hourglass? That was nice. And it could be used in some way to "equalize" things. Thoughts? Might be better to do this in a different thread though.

[Pushwall]

1 hour ago, Jeod said:

As for ladder camping, if we have people willing to edit the building models, why not replace the ladders with good old-fashioned industrial/cold war era fire escapes? Those still allow freedom of movement as opposed to the vertical lock that comes with ladders.

I said it in discord in response to Sarah's ramp suggestion and forgot to bring it here - squaredancing your way up/down a fire escape would be hell for anyone with non-euro ping, and possibly still so for some people in that area. Unless it's large enough that would be less of a problem but then that comes with aesthetic issues. Back when I was adding the Soviet cliff ladder on RidgeWar, I originally intended for it to be a spiral/square ramp/staircase but cut it in favour of a ladder because of both these issues. Straight ramps or staircases (with enough room to strafe side to side) might possibly work for the WF due to its width/length compared to its height, but a fire escape that you constantly have to change direction on... not so much.

[Jeod]

Just now, Pushwall said:

I said it in discord in response to Sarah's ramp suggestion and forgot to bring it here - squaredancing your way up/down a fire escape would be hell for anyone with non-euro ping, and possibly still so for some people in that area. Unless it's large enough that would be less of a problem but then that comes with aesthetic issues.

Is it any worse than the elevator hijinks in beta?

[Pushwall]

As someone who started playing after elevators stopped existing in the WF, I wouldn't know about that, but I know getting onto the elevator in the Refinery without the game saying "oh actually you're 1m off the elevator but you'll have to correct that yourself" was a pain. And I know in the new Ref staircase people occasionally lag into the railing on their way up, and that's a wider and more sheltered staircase than I imagine the fire escapes would be.

It might also be worth getting some input from anyone who played TS_Isles on Reborn after it got a bunch of scaffolding square ramp spirals added to allow Nod units to access their own cliffs. Which, I might add, didn't have any guard rails.

[KevinLancaster]

Is it possible to block flares on roofs somehow?

[Pushwall]

Yes.

Is there a reasonable way to communicate to players that that's the case so we don't end up with an eternity of "wuuuuuuuut I can't place flares here? that's dumb. for what reason? it's visible from the sky, why can't the missile silo targeting see it?"

[FRAYDO]

14 minutes ago, Pushwall said:

Is there a reasonable way to communicate to players that that's the case so we don't end up with an eternity of "wuuuuuuuut I can't place flares here? that's dumb. for what reason? it's visible from the sky, why can't the missile silo targeting see it?"

I gotchu fam

[KevinLancaster]

Couldn't the in-game hint text be used like it is when you get in a Yak?

Edited February 8, 2018 by KevinLancaster

[Pushwall]

I'm sure people don't want to see that plastered across their screen every time they touch or fly over a rooftop or even happen to be between rooves (like in the Refinery third floor interior which is at the same height as the walkable sections of the roof - and is also an infantry spawn point). There's a reason I keep application of that text to a minimum. And it'd be annoying for people who don't frequently use their own rooves, to instead see that after they've dragged a flare all the way across the map. Perhaps it could instead be printed when you "buy" the flare (which would need a script update).

[Raap]

Missing poll option: Add MOAR ladders and staircases!

I think this is just one of those hings you got to live with. The moment you enable air units is the moment you know players will try to reach odd locations. You can make every roof a killzone but my personal take on these things is to just go with it rather than fight it. A lot of players across different gaming genres typically like to have as many open paths before them as possible, roof top access adds a path to base defense/assault. I just think we need to embrace stairwells more than ladders however, since you can fight in/from those.

That's not to say all ladders should be replaced with stairs, that would be impractical, but more ways to get onto buildings would be good to have regardless, perhaps even from inside.

Edit: I also like the elevator idea, but only if fancy magician @jonwil can use fancy magic to make them less of a lag-ride. This is the reason I axed rail carts from the new HW as well, I got way too concerned about reliability. As of right now however, mostly straight stairs are the fail-safe option. At most with one turn in them like on the Advanced Naval Yard - providing they are wide enough so that a lagging user doesn't rubber band all over the place.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Raap

[KevinLancaster]

16 hours ago, Pushwall said:

I'm sure people don't want to see that plastered across their screen every time they touch or fly over a rooftop or even happen to be between rooves (like in the Refinery third floor interior which is at the same height as the walkable sections of the roof - and is also an infantry spawn point). There's a reason I keep application of that text to a minimum. And it'd be annoying for people who don't frequently use their own rooves, to instead see that after they've dragged a flare all the way across the map. Perhaps it could instead be printed when you "buy" the flare (which would need a script update).

Isn't it possible to set the hints to show only once, as there's a reset hints checkbox in the Extended Options section?

[Pushwall]

Reset hints is for the archaic hint feature of Gamma that served only to freeze people in combat at random, if you bought a unit that you hadn't bought before it'd wait some seemingly random amount of time before showing a popup about the unit that prevents you from taking any actions until you close it. Reset hints is for resetting those and they don't exist anymore.

[MPRA2]

I know this has either been said before, or is impossible due to engine limitations..... BUUUUUUUUT Shouldn't there be a way to disable the placing of flares on top of buildings? Or perhaps if the game detects that a flare was placed inside/on top of a building, it would automatically disarm itself? Just throwing ideas out there.