A Path Beyond Grenadier

[OWA]

I like the idea of the Nader being used in a mine clearing role. It's not really clear right now what's good against mines. Whenever I go clearing mines as an Engineer I take a Shockie with me to help out because I don't think the Golden Wrench or Repair Tool can remove mines. The only thing that the engie has to clear mines with is the C4, which is pretty useless for clearing any more than 1 mine at a time.

 

I actually like the idea of merging the RPG Trooper and Grenadier together to make some sort of Super Nader. That would bring more value to both units imo. My only fear is that he'll have an awful lot of weapons. But I guess 3 isn't too bad (Nade, RPG, Strela).

[Pushwall]

It's not really clear right now what's good against mines. Whenever I go clearing mines as an Engineer I take a Shockie with me to help out because I don't think the Golden Wrench or Repair Tool can remove mines. The only thing that the engie has to clear mines with is the C4, which is pretty useless for clearing any more than 1 mine at a time.

 

This is why the Engineer's getting clearing charges, which are essentially a C4 that only affects mines, has a 3 second timer, has a 25% larger radius and pierces cover. And the engy gets 3 of them at a time and can of course restock with a supply truck.

 

Giving the "no damage falloff" feature back to Grenadiers would also make them better at mineclearing.

[OWA]

 

It's not really clear right now what's good against mines. Whenever I go clearing mines as an Engineer I take a Shockie with me to help out because I don't think the Golden Wrench or Repair Tool can remove mines. The only thing that the engie has to clear mines with is the C4, which is pretty useless for clearing any more than 1 mine at a time.

This is why the Engineer's getting clearing charges, which are essentially a C4 that only affects mines, has a 3 second timer, has a 25% larger radius and pierces cover. And the engy gets 3 of them at a time and can of course restock with a supply truck.

 

Giving the "no damage falloff" feature back to Grenadiers would also make them better at mineclearing.

 

This would be a pretty niche solution imo. I'm not really a fan of having explosives that are only good against 1 thing. They're explosives, so they should affect everything, even in a small way. It's kind of like the whole issue with the AA Rocket Launcher and Anti-Vehicle C4 that Reborn had. It wouldn't make sense and would only serve to confuse players.

[Pushwall]

When I say "only affects" I mean only affects in a significant way. They'll definitely hurt infantry. But as for bigger things, no. Because while we're on the subject of things that confuse players, how about weapons that do "negligible but not zero" damage to certain things? Hitmarkers exist and they will not pop up if your weapon is doing absolutely no damage to a target. This is why I changed pistols, which used to do something like 0.01 damage per shot to vehicles and MCTs, to now do a big fat 0: to avoid confusing players.

 

And at least a clearing charge is relatively transparent in its purpose from its name unlike the Gamma golden wrench, whose secondary fire looked identical to the primary, and you would not know that it was a minesweeper unless you actually used it near enemy mines.

Not to mention, killstrings for non-weapons are actually a thing now, so anyone with basic pattern recognition skills will notice the killstrings popping up in chat that indicate that people are using this new "Clearing Charge" weapon and only ever seem to use it to destroy mines, and figure out that it's an anti-mine explosive from that.

[moonsense715]

 

 

It's not really clear right now what's good against mines. Whenever I go clearing mines as an Engineer I take a Shockie with me to help out because I don't think the Golden Wrench or Repair Tool can remove mines. The only thing that the engie has to clear mines with is the C4, which is pretty useless for clearing any more than 1 mine at a time.

This is why the Engineer's getting clearing charges, which are essentially a C4 that only affects mines, has a 3 second timer, has a 25% larger radius and pierces cover. And the engy gets 3 of them at a time and can of course restock with a supply truck.

 

Giving the "no damage falloff" feature back to Grenadiers would also make them better at mineclearing.

 

This would be a pretty niche solution imo. I'm not really a fan of having explosives that are only good against 1 thing. They're explosives, so they should affect everything, even in a small way. It's kind of like the whole issue with the AA Rocket Launcher and Anti-Vehicle C4 that Reborn had. It wouldn't make sense and would only serve to confuse players.

 

I'd actually find a mineclearing weapon for the Engineer pretty useful. I often keep buying engineers to detect mines but I always need teammates to kill them right now.

[GeneralCamo]

I like the idea of removing the RPG Soldier and merging it with the Grenadier in some aspect. Would give it more use for certain.

[OWA]

When I say "only affects" I mean only affects in a significant way. They'll definitely hurt infantry. But as for bigger things, no. Because while we're on the subject of things that confuse players, how about weapons that do "negligible but not zero" damage to certain things? Hitmarkers exist and they will not pop up if your weapon is doing absolutely no damage to a target. This is why I changed pistols, which used to do something like 0.01 damage per shot to vehicles and MCTs, to now do a big fat 0: to avoid confusing players.

 

And at least a clearing charge is relatively transparent in its purpose from its name unlike the Gamma golden wrench, whose secondary fire looked identical to the primary, and you would not know that it was a minesweeper unless you actually used it near enemy mines.

 

Not to mention, killstrings for non-weapons are actually a thing now, so anyone with basic pattern recognition skills will notice the killstrings popping up in chat that indicate that people are using this new "Clearing Charge" weapon and only ever seem to use it to destroy mines, and figure out that it's an anti-mine explosive from that.

I guess I got a little paranoid and assumed that this clearing charge would be a C4 of some description. If it's powerful enough to 'splode mines, but small enough to be ineffective against heavy vehicles, then that makes total sense.

[devilslayersbane]

I like the idea of removing the RPG Soldier and merging it with the Grenadier in some aspect. Would give it more use for certain.

I would rather see a GP-25 on the rifle soldier than this. I still support my suggestion, and pushwall's further comments help reinforce any doubt I had that the changes I proposed (and that he amended) would be overpowered or underpowered. The point of this thread was to determine whether or not the grenadier had use outside of infantry only maps, doing away with him would change the feel of the game significantly and remove a good portion of nostalgia (which is the reason I came to this game).

[Raptor29aa]

I personally like the grenadier as he is. Here are my reasons.

A). Cheap unit when broke and need anti armor unit (currently cheaper than a kaptain)

B). Most affordable splash damage unit for beginning of match rush

C). Moderately good at everything. tanks, infantry, buildings, boats, and (if you use the secondary right) aircraft.

I feel that the grenadier is the best of the basics, the corvette of the Volkswagen bugs. Highly versatile, cheap, but not too threatening. No other Soviet unit is like it.

-bottom line it's not broken don't try to fix it. It like trying to make an old ford pickup into a Lamborghini.

I think if you want to show the genadeir more love make it a permanent basic unit. I know the worry is about the allies not having one. But if the unit is a harmless and replaceable as most people on this form are making him out to be, then it's not an issue. Face it he was meant to be a low tier infantry unit and that's where he belongs.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Raptor29aa

[gammae102]

I'm inclined to agree with Raptor. At the very least, I'd rather leave the grenadier as is before merging him with the RPG trooper.

 

See, I was thinking of making the grenadier a bit of a an Anti-infantry, anti-building unit. So, essentially a soviet arty. That's on foot. That costs less. And while doing substantial damage to buildings with direct hits (slightly less than the RPG trooper), he wouldn't do as much to infantry (without a direct hit). However, his splash radius would be rather large (like, 20 meters or so). So while you may not die from a single grenade, you will take damage. I mean, most grenades have a kill radius of about 15 meters. This would also deter grenadiers from entering buildings due to the threat of self-harm.

 

But if we did want to change anything, I like this idea as well. I would increase the amount of an arc you have throwing a grenade, while decreasing throw velocity and range. This would make it more difficult to aim, especially when trying to hit vehicles (keeping a reason to buy a flamethrower instead). I like this in conjunction with Pushwall's idea to get rid of the Volktillery. On some maps this could make a grenadier rush a viable early strategy against an unorganized Allied team, while still being easy to stop for an Allied team that isn't completely neglecting defense.

[Pushwall]

C). Moderately good at ... boats,

 

If "moderately good" is taking longer to destroy boats than a rifle soldier (due to his warhead being coupled to the Destroyer/Missile Sub's) then sure I guess?

 

Highly versatile, cheap, but not too threatening.

Problem is it's just not threatening enough. It's a joke. And making it threatening enough that it's actually worth buying for any reason other than pity would require some of its roles to be severed or for its price to be increased. And I'm leaning more towards the latter so that they don't get spammed so much on Fissure.

 

Off the top of my head, a problem I see for him right now? Is his accuracy

 

Can't get any better than a sprayangle of 0 I'm afraid.

 

and then make his primary weapon a grenade launcher!

 

Did I mention that this isn't renegade? Also, are there even any Russian grenade launchers in existence that aren't rocket-propelled, aren't under-barrel AK attachments, and are at least as old as the MP5?

 

 

 

As it stands I'm just going to toss out the extravagant ideas and the Grenadier is going to stay as its own unit, I'm just going to give him more damage/range and remove his splash falloff so he does his "field artillery" job better, and add charge time and remove his death explosion so he's not so great in buildings. That's what the flamethrower is for.

[Raptor29aa]

Maybe a slight "damage verse buildings" boost would bump him up from mostly harmless to sometimes harmless.

@ Pushwall - aww if you take away the self destruct the grenadier will be less satisfying to kill with a Captain/Sniper/Rifleman because we'll lose the satisfying pop of his death animation.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Raptor29aa

[Pushwall]

Yeah that's what he's getting, among some other things - his range is becoming more clear (the "targeting range" of 100m isn't entirely accurate, especially if you're on a hill) and his DPS to building exteriors is going up from the pitiful state it's currently in to about equal to Volktillery.

[ganein14]

Just one shell or all three at once?

[Pushwall]

I said it was going up, didn't I? Even the Grenadier's current awful damage is still better than missing 2/3 of your Volktillery shots.

[ganein14]

I wouldn't know, as I usually don't use volktiliery on anything that isn't a large building.

[des1206]

How about also make the nader free and available without bar? He will be like a sucky RPG trooper vs. vehicles, sucky rifle in the field (unless you have skill), sucky flame trooper in buildings. Jack of all trades, master of none.

Edited March 16, 2016 by des1206

[ganein14]

How about also make the nader free and available without bar? He will be like a sucky RPG trooper vs. vehicles, sucky rifle in the field (unless you have skill), sucky flame trooper in buildings. Jack of all trades, master of none.

No....just no.

[harvester]

How about also make the nader free and available without bar? He will be like a sucky RPG trooper vs. vehicles, sucky rifle in the field (unless you have skill), sucky flame trooper in buildings. Jack of all trades, master of none.

Yeah, I don't mind. A basic level all-rounder that is not powerful in every situation just like a rifle soldier but with its own pros and cons.

[TK-421]

To compensate for him actually having a defined role that he doesn't blow chunks at I'll probably raise his cost to something in the 300-500 range though.

 

A damage radius of 20 or even 15 is kind of absurd when you consider that the 155mm has a radius of 18, and some buildings have pretty spacious interiors (particularly the War Factory and CY) so he can easily defend himself in those without risking self-harm. Then again, his current radius of 8 doesn't do him many favours in the field. So if he had a larger radius he would definitely have to keep his current 0% wall penetration and perhaps his weapon could have a charge-up time (pulling the pin, though the engine doesn't allow for charging animations for weapons as far as I'm aware so he wouldn't actually appear to be doing that in first person) to discourage corner peeking. Normally I am not a fan of this engine's treatment of charging weapons but if you're using grenades for the intended purpose of shelling buildings and splashing infantry in the field rather than trying to hit them directly or corner peek (attempting to directly hit infantry with charge-up shock rifles was a huge problem due to it being impossible to predict when the charge-up would actually end since the delay was affected by lag, and this was probably the biggest issue with them that led to charge-up being removed) it shouldn't be a big problem.

Technically it should be a 203mm since it's modeled after the M110 which has an 203mm howitzer.

[Pushwall]

What does this excerpt from the Red Alert manual say though?

[Einstein]

What does this excerpt from the Red Alert manual say though?

NUMBERS.png

 

Yeaahhhh...but it should probably be a 203mm though.

 

 

 

 

I'm going to stop now before Pushwall murders the lot of us

[devilslayersbane]

I personally like the fact that the RA universe has a 155mm M110. It does give a bit of uniqueness to the universe that does help separate it from our own.

[Pushwall]

Too bad the actual RA one only has a lobbing range comparable to grenadiers (which aren't even the super-arm-strength bugged or APB grenadiers) and is actually more fragile than a Tanya or medic (uncrushability notwithstanding). It might as well be a medieval catapult.

[Ice]

Too bad the actual RA one only has a lobbing range comparable to grenadiers (which aren't even the super-arm-strength bugged or APB grenadiers) and is actually more fragile than a Tanya or medic (uncrushability notwithstanding). It might as well be a medieval catapult.

Yeah, the arty's range in RA1 is pretty abysmal. It couldn't even out-range a Tesla Coil lol. One of the very first things I did when modding RA back in the day was increase the range of the arty, almost doubling it.

[Pushwall]

I think you went too far Pushwall. The grenadier right now is weird. The first person animation is lagged or something. You click Right Mouse Button, and you see your arm swing and throw. But nothing gets thrown until after the animation is over. You see yourself throw nothing, and then you see the grenade get chucked out of thin air. Ruins the immersion, I was like "what the fuck? I can't use this" just on that problem alone. It throws off your aiming like no tomorrow. Although 3rd person is better than 1st, 1st can still get the job done, and alot of guys are used to it.

 

Doesn't happen to me. C4-type weapons are server side. I can't fix lag and I can't make the animation perfectly synced to everyone's individual lags either. C4 should have the exact same problem since it uses the exact same logic, why've you never complained about that, especially considering you only get one shot with them so having your aiming thrown off is super bad? If you notice a really bad desync between your click and the actual firing maybe you should stop firing for a couple of seconds and start again to let your game sync with the server. Just like how when C4ing a terminal you should stop and jump in place for a second or two so that you can be sure that your position matches what it is on the server so the C4 will actually land where you want it.

 

I don't know why you went all out with "lets define its role". Just keep it as it was, but make it a bit stronger. Make the grenade effective against all ground targets, keep it's primary lob throw and secondary softball chuck throw from beta, so you have ways of hitting targets at most ranges. Make the grenades explode on impact, keep the splash radius with only very slight damage falloff from center of explosion.

 

So... you want it to be the old one but a bit stronger. So you want a $160 unit to be exactly as good (or better) than a $300 one that was in the same role. I can't believe I never thought of that

keep the splash radius with only very slight damage falloff from center of explosion.

 

It is impossible to have anything between "linear falloff to 0 damage at max distance" and "no falloff".

[Raap]

Can't comment on grenadier gameplay, besides stating that the grenade targeting info is very annoying and makes me lose track of my target at times since the grenade info box pops up the moment you throw one. They should really be non-targetable

Edited March 27, 2016 by Raap

[harvester]

A $160 unit. Its better than the shotgunner, but worse than the flamethrower/RPG; it can tacle all ground targets, but is better at infantry than the shotgunner, better at tanks than captains, and worse than RPG/flamethrower at tanks. Make it so that its about the same effectiveness as shotgunners indoors, but they can damage tanks just like the captains. Shotgunner has faster RoF and normal gun, grenadier has arched projectile and slow RoF.

The grenadier is not for splash damaging anti infantry unit, you know. Quit telling yourself that. It has its own specialized role. Get a flametrooper if you want something like that. Try harassing buildings with it from a cliff, at least we don't need to spend extra 1000 on valkov that's unavailable on some maps.

 

 

I don't know why you went all out with "lets define its role". Just keep it as it was, but make it a bit stronger. Make the grenade effective against all ground targets, keep it's primary lob throw and secondary softball chuck throw from beta, so you have ways of hitting targets at most ranges. Make the grenades explode on impact, keep the splash radius with only very slight damage falloff from center of explosion.

 

So... you want it to be the old one but a bit stronger. So you want a $160 unit to be exactly as good (or better) than a $300 one that was in the same role. I can't believe I never thought of that

 

The guy just needs to get used to the new unit role instead of expecting the game to be the way he wants it to be. If we want to discuss how the game should be, it will be an endless source of bickering and whining since everybody has different opinions for the game.

[Raptor29aa]

I think the primary difference between the flamer and the grenadier is the burn damage.

 

I very much dislike the pistol on the grenadier though. I mean I had an unlimited supply of grenades why would I use anything else?

 

I've tried the RS pistol and just shooting a rocket at their feet works better. (But that is because I feel like a techie using it instead of a 300 or in the case of a grenadier 500 dollar unit with an explosive weapons)

 

The sniper I understand because it has no splash and fires slow.

The spy I understand because it's a specialized silenced weapon. (And it would be OP with anything else)

 

The Grenadier with a pistol reminds me of the beta volkov who when first improved got a pistol besides his medium tank cannon hand.

I remember when testing BHP where playing with giving the shock trooper a pistol. (And played around with the idea of the gamma medic getting a pistol, lol)

 

My point there is enough creativity to come up with a better secondary than a pistol.

[Isaac The Madd]

I think we should give the Grenadier throwing knifes as a secondary instead a pistol.